No. If I remember correctly, Tywin threatened to put him in the KG if the Tyrells wouldn't let him marry Cersei (thus sparking that hilarious exchange between him and Jaime at the purple wedding)
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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No. If I remember correctly, Tywin threatened to put him in the KG if the Tyrells wouldn't let him marry Cersei (thus sparking that hilarious exchange between him and Jaime at the purple wedding)
Last Hearth
Member
Tarly was in the Riverlands and Mace was at Storm's End, marching an army to KL takes time, the point is they both head for KL with their army as soon as news reaches them.
Margaery is released and one of the reason for Cersei's decision to do the WOS was her desperation knowing that Margaery is free.
Cornballer
Member
A few more reviews:
- io9
- Alyssa Rosenberg @ Washington Post
- Film School Rejects
- Wired
Also:
- The Game Revealed: Ep 3 & 4 (youtube copy, also available on HBOGo/HBONow)
- Viewership up slightly this week
- Episode 4 clip: Stark reunion
And:
Jason Momoa is amusing:
- io9
- Alyssa Rosenberg @ Washington Post
- Film School Rejects
- Wired
Also:
- The Game Revealed: Ep 3 & 4 (youtube copy, also available on HBOGo/HBONow)
- Viewership up slightly this week
- Episode 4 clip: Stark reunion
And:
Jason Momoa is amusing:
white walkers made like 5 miles in the past 3 seasons, think he should be fine
I do think that they will attack the wall just as he has conquered winterfell
Lol true.
My question was more about the actual geography, like, even if hardhome is close to castle black it's actually a complicated path between mountains or something, but I guess it's not.
I'm assuming they just expect the wall will give them time, so they can take Winterfell and rescue Rickon in the meanwhile.
Yeah, and it makes more sense in the books considering her charge was treason punishable by death. She was in legit trouble and they had no choice but to move their army in as a show of force. What is the show even charging her for again? Knowing that her brother was getting frisky with a dude? Frankly the issue here is that they're treating Marg and Loras this way in the first place. The charges are flimsy as hell; I can see the Tyrells not being too worried about it especially since show Mace is a caricature and pushover and Olenna apparently only cares about her rivalry with Cersei.
Didn't GRRM mention that this is actually a significant change? I think I remember him implying that one of Margaery's brothers in Highgarden has an important part to play in the last two books.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Yeah, I think he said both would have pretty important roles going forward.
Orochinagis
Member
They killed Osha, god damm them all, I only have the old granny lady as my favorite character now.
I kinda hate Dany story, like everything is just falling in to her benefict all the time and the writers take her out of danger when there is trouble and put more help on her new location, everywhere she goes is always good for her until another problem arise and relocate her
I kinda hate Dany story, like everything is just falling in to her benefict all the time and the writers take her out of danger when there is trouble and put more help on her new location, everywhere she goes is always good for her until another problem arise and relocate her
How is everything falling into her benefit? She single handedly devises a lot of her plans, and this one was no different. She just needed the opportunity to do so.
One of countless reasons why people shouldn't make book assumptions based on what happens on the show.
I think that's what I am having the most fun with is trying to figure out what will and won't be the same as the shows. Because some of the things that have happened that sort of work in the show would mean GRRM is a total hack if they happen that way in the book based on current build up but there's no way to know until the books are published. Someday.
GRRM has never directed an episode. Last time he wrote for the show was Joffrey's wedding in Season 4.
He's not writing for the show anymore, stating he's focusing on the book(s).
Edit: OH GOD WRONG THREAD
Napalm_Frank
Member
Cersei and the crown is basically broke. Even Robert when he was still getting loans left and right wouldn't hire one to kill Dany because they are so damn expensive. And while the Faceless Men might be really good at killing, nobody knew where Tyrion was. Different from something like Balon who just sits in one place.
No, he's focusing on the book, I think.
Hmm. I wonder if Cersei even knows about the Faceless men. If their existence was well known and documented, couldn't you ask why Tywin didn't just hire one or two to kill Robb, Stannis, Renly etc?
I may be wrong, but the only person who has probably hired a faceless man is Euron, and he's established at being extremely knowledgeable about this kind of thing.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Their existence is well known. But like I said, Dany would have been too costly for Robert. Imagine the price of someone like Tywin or Robb ect. who actually have a security force behind them. Littlefinger says something like they could hire an army of sellswords for the price of assassinating Dany. I'd think Tywin would rather buy the army than remove one enemy leader, if they even succeeded in the assassination. I mean, while they are supposed to be very dependable they do have their limits.
So he's not stuck in the Night's Watch for the rest of the series.
If that's really the reason he was killed, is that good storytelling?
One of the reasons that people like GoT is that it actually kills off its characters. Is it worth destroying that trust just so Jon could leave the Night's Watch? There are other ways to leave the Night's Watch than the most dramatic method possible.
Plus, as far as we know, his goal is to kill the White Walkers which is the same goal as the Night's Watch. What's wrong with him being a part of the group sworn to protect the realm from the others?
elrechazado
Banned
Jon the hero bring fundamentally changed in a haunting and negative way like beric or catelyn may play into the "bittersweet" ending. If Jon saved the world but lost himself, that would be consistent with a lot of grrm themes in the books.
H.Cornerstone
Member
Well that is the only way Jon can leave the nights watch......
That and only two people who were dead are now alive, Beric/Catelyn and now Jon.
If Jon is fundamentally changed, I would agree that killing him would make narrative sense. But I don't see that change in the show's Jon (not talking about the books given that we haven't seen what happens after his fatal stabbing).
Jon could have left the Night's Watch by taking up Stannis' offer. Jon could have deserted just like he did in Season 1. Jon could have stayed in the Night's Watch and fought the White Walkers with his sworn brothers. There are countless ways that Martin could have gotten him to leave the watch and we'll see if his death was necessary when Winds comes out. But now I'm talking about the show.
Why was Jon killed? And if it's just to get out of his Night's Watch vows, is that satisfying storytelling?
I don't mind resurrection at all if there's a good reason for it. But I don't see that reason in the show.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Holy shit last episode had 7.82m viewers. What the hell is going on, that is way above the mid season numbers last year.
People really love Ramsay don't they?
People really love Ramsay don't they?
There aren't actually other ways for him to leave the watch. Not without breaking an oath, which is out of character for Jon, who has twice chosen to honor his oath over a responsibility to his loved ones.
"Destroying that trust". Game of Thrones meticulously plotted his resurrection. They showed the audience and the relevant character the means by which it was possible and described the cost of it. They earned this.
While getting him away from the Wall was the plot purpose for his death, it isn't the only repercussion. Jon is now tired and shaken, and that opens new doors for character growth and development.
I think we will see that his resurrection has a lot more to do with an over arching connection with the main story. It's not just about the KW.
He could have left the watch by being named the legitimate Lord of Winterfell by Stannis. Or he could have stayed and fought the White Walkers, which is what he's going to do anyway.
Jon did break his oath by sleeping with Ygritte and (arguably) by letting the Wildings go South of the Wall. In the books, he broke his oath by marching toward Winterfell. Jon is honorable but not to the extent that Ned and (book) Robb are.
I guess we haven't seen "the cost" of his resurrection yet. He certainly doesn't suffer from the loss of identity and memories that Beric has. There's a chance that Jon is now a new person and that's why he had to die (which is what I guess the books will do), but that hasn't been communicated on the show.
You might be right. That's why I wish they had done the R+L=J reveal before Jon came back to establish why he was important. Though he wouldn't have to die for R+L to matter and the show still hasn't gone into the Prince The Was Promised prophecy (born of salt and all that stuff) so I'm left wondering why he died.
H.Cornerstone
Member
He broke his oath by sleeping with Ygritte true, but he was following orders.
And no, had he left with Stannis, he would have broken his oath. The only way to break his oath is to give his life.
My guess is that a king's word has more power than an oath but neither of us know for sure how his brothers would have reacted if he left as Jon Stark. So, why couldn't Jon just stay with the Night's Watch? His goal is the same as their goal.
Accepting Stannis' offer doesn't relieve him of his oath, it only ensured that he wouldn't be considered a deserter. His personal honor is what is relevant.
He didn't break his oath by sleeping with Ygritte. His oath says he shall take no wife and father no children, which he did not. Not sleeping with women is less a part of his oath and more a rule of the nights watch - one which Aemon pointed out many haven't adhered to.
As for leading the Wildlings south of the wall - nothing about his oath mentions the wildlings. They are meant to protect the Kingdom from it's threats beyond the wall, which he was doing by securing an alliance with the wildlings for the fight with the walkers.
If they revealed his parents before his death, his death becomes even MORE unbelievable. Why would they bother revealing him as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, the last Dragon, only to unceremoniously kill him before they do anything with that?
They've spoken briefly about it (Melisandre has referenced this at least a few times) and hinted at its importance. We will definitely learn more about this soon. His resurrection will hold more meaning than people think; that's my guess.
I think a lot of questions are going to be answered in the coming episodes.
I thought there was a part of the vow that said they couldn't take part in the wars of the realm. Guess not.
It just seems more logical to me that they would have found out that Jon was important and then tried to bring him back as opposed to finding out his importance after the fact.
Did Mel reference Jon's destiny in the show? I thought that was only a book thing. And you might be right that more answers are to come. I really thought he had to die to become a different person and was disappointed that he's hasn't fundamentally changed since his resurrection. So now I'm left wondering if he died for shock value or if there's a good reason for it.
And I still don't understand why he has to leave the Night's Watch. He wants to fight White Walkers and so do they!
I don't have exact quotes but she's definitely referenced him as the Prince a few times. She believes in him now and will follow him wherever he goes.
Though.. I do totally agree with the criticism that the resurrection wasn't handled very well and was nonchalantly implemented. There should have been MUCH more sacrifice and meaning in regard to his initial resurrection. That was not handled with care.
I also agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for him to want to leave when he knows the WW pose a direct threat, but he also feels beaten and failed. This is the classic hero's journey here though (I think it could have been represented a little better though) because he's losing hope and purpose but those around him help lift him up and restore his confidence (Sansa, currently). He's beginning to continue on his path.
It does make some sense since he was ultimately betrayed by his own men and he feels he failed/dejected in every way imaginable. I can see him wanting to step away from it all because of this.
But he'll be back in full force.
Not knowing what is going to happen since there are no books to go off of, this is the first time I was shocked that something happened.
It was a very cool scene and I really hope they have a lot of screen time together. Having a reunion for two of the Stark siblings was something I didnt think was ever going to happen.
ThisBeJason
Member
Jon dedicated the latter part of his life for the Watch and they basically betrayed him by killing him/allowing him to be killed. His next life I assume he wants to live for his own personal reasons, whatever that may be. He told Sansa he was done fighting, but now he may be forced to fight for family (Sansa and Rickon). He can still fight for the Watch (against the White Walkers) but fighting for family seems like more of a pressing matter, given that the WW haven't breached the wall or even tried to yet.
Mel said in S06E03 Jon is the Prince that was Promised. She said those words. Dying freed Jon of his vows from the Watch.
bitbydeath
Member
He was killed for creating an alliance with the wildlings.
The whole reason for having Watchers on the Wall (as many saw it) was to fight the Wildlings and Jon was singlehandidly changing that.
I meant from a narrative perspective. What can be accomplished now that Jon has died and come back that couldn't through more conventional means?
H.Cornerstone
Member
Again, releases him from his vows, and supposedly makes him into a different man.
He is now free to leave the nights watch and re-unite the north, which will be essential in the war against the white walkers.
bitbydeath
Member
Jon leaves, Wall comes down, everyone dies knowing Jon was right.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Jon dying him releases him from his vows. For the show, that's good enough.
Now, in the book, who knows what else there will be to it. There's the chance Jon warged into Ghost before he died. He might have visions of dragons, or other stuff that makes his death have a bit more a purpose than just getting him out of his vows.
Now, in the book, who knows what else there will be to it. There's the chance Jon warged into Ghost before he died. He might have visions of dragons, or other stuff that makes his death have a bit more a purpose than just getting him out of his vows.
bitbydeath
Member
I see it as more about why he died.
He would not have died if he did not destroy thousands of years of work that the Watchers had been putting in.
He had to die because of that.
They had to build him up before killing him, otherwise, why would anyone bother attempting to revive a regular dead crow?
I can't tell if you're saying they did build him up before his death or they should have built him up before his death. I'm on the latter side and can't figure out what Davos was thinking.
I'm not following you, he is broken after the resurrection, before that he saved the Lord Commander, Craster's wives, the Night's Watch, and even a bunch of wildlings, oh and he killed a freaking white walker, he's already built up enough. As for Davos, we have to assume he knows about all of this.
They built up his importance pretty strongly man.
From the get go most viewers recognized him as a lead character and grew attached.
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