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[pollo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/01/politics/01trade.html

WASHINGTON, June 30 - After a bitter and prolonged battle over the promises and perils of foreign trade, the Senate voted on Thursday to approve the Central American Free Trade Agreement.

The vote of 54 to 45, which came after weeks of efforts to placate angry sugar producers and other interest groups, was a major victory for President Bush at a time when Republicans and Democrats alike have been alarmed about soaring imports from low-cost countries.

The vote set the stage for an even more difficult fight in the House, where opposition to the trade pact is strong among lawmakers from textile regions in the South, manufacturing states in the Midwest and sugar- producing areas like Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota and Wyoming.

The pact would eliminate most trade restrictions on about $32 billion in annual trade with the Dominican Republic and the five Central American nations of Costa Rica, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala and Nicaragua.

And were one step closer to a regional trade bloc with South America.

 

[Bluecondor]

This is good. Central America has tons of natural resources. These are underdeveloped economies with lots of potential.

 

[Phoenix]

Time for those companies in the US to establish operations in those countries. If this free trade area happens, that's their best hope for sustained profitability.

 

[alejob]

I'm from Costa Rica. The government down there owns the insurance company, telecomunications(internet, phone, etc..), and a bunch of other stuff. They have a monopoly on a lot of stuff so of course their services suck. Another problem with that is that the unions are so big and powerful that they control a lot of things, when they don't like something they'll go on strike, block streets and protest everything. Now they are against the free trade agreement(CAFTA) because they are afraid another company will come in and take their business away, the lazy bastards are afraid of competition. They are afraid of loosing their comfy jobs. A lot of those people are worthless, they just like whine and bitch. I'll be happy to see them go.

An example of their incompetence:
Back in 2000 or 2001(don't remember) the telecomunications company started working on what they called "advanced Internet", which is a fancy name for building the countries network infrastructure and buying the DSL things to give internet services. They said that at the end of the year they would have it running. It's 2005 and they started giving the service earlier this year.

There are a lot of protest planned. Don't know what's going to happen but there is also a lot of preassure to pass this bill, specially now that the US has aproved it. Also because if we don't pass it and the other countries do then we would be screwed.

I don't know how the free trade agreement works but I hope we get cheaper electronics stuff(speacially games ), we have to pay almost double for it.

 

[Phoenix]

I'm from Costa Rica. The government down there owns the insurance company, telecomunications(internet, phone, etc..), and a bunch of other stuff. They have a monopoly on a lot of stuff so of course their services suck. Another problem with that is that the unions are so big and powerful that they control a lot of things, when they don't like something they'll go on strike, block streets and protest everything. Now they are against the free trade agreement(CAFTA) because they are afraid another company will come in and take their business away, the lazy bastards are afraid of competition. They are afraid of loosing their comfy jobs. A lot of those people are worthless, they just like whine and bitch. I'll be happy to see them go.

Don't feel bad. The people on this side of the border are the same way. They are afraid that CAFTA will take away their business and are afraid of (cheap) competition. So on both sides of the border we have people who are just afraid of losing the status quo. If they had any sense they would quickly start working with their counterparts on the other side of the fence and establish a new status quo that didn't threaten them too much. But instead of that, they are all trying to dig in their heels, put there hands over their ears and sing "lalalalalalala its not going to happen lalalalalalalalala".

 

[pollo]

i find it funny that the ones opposing this are the ones that were such strong proponents of NAFTA. Democrats especially are copping out citing egregiously bad labor standards as reason to why to oppose the trade; at least the Republicans who oppose it cite small buisness protection as their cause - the same reason they decided to oppose NAFTA in the first place.

It seems rather hypocritical considering Mexicos standard of labor isn't really up there either.

 

[kablooey]

i find it funny that the ones opposing this are the ones that were such strong proponents of NAFTA. Democrats especially are copping out citing egregiously bad labor standards as reason to why to oppose the trade; at least the Republicans who oppose it cite small buisness protection as their cause - the same reason they decided to oppose NAFTA in the first place.

It seems rather hypocritical considering Mexicos standard of labor isn't really up there either.

That's true, but it's better late than never that they decide to wake up to the labor conditions that result from these "Free Trade" areas. I don't understand how anyone can say these agreements are fair (let alone "free"...but that's another post) for either country. Environmental standards and national healthcare/education/resources can all be bypassed if they're seen as an impediment to profits for US companies. The people who end up getting screwed are the poor and people who export products/services to the US, while the fat cats in both countries boost their profits. Blah. If people have any sense, this'll get shut down.

 

[kablooey]

Don't feel bad. The people on this side of the border are the same way. They are afraid that CAFTA will take away their business and are afraid of (cheap) competition. So on both sides of the border we have people who are just afraid of losing the status quo. If they had any sense they would quickly start working with their counterparts on the other side of the fence and establish a new status quo that didn't threaten them too much. But instead of that, they are all trying to dig in their heels, put there hands over their ears and sing "lalalalalalala its not going to happen lalalalalalalalala".

Well, it's not as easy as you would make it seem for these people to get back to work. What do you say to a person who spends his entire life training for a very specific job, and then loses that job to make way for lower cost imports from another country? He's more or less fucked. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not as if there're programs in place to ease the transition from one sector to another without people having to spend tons of money. If there were such programs, in both countries, then these FTA's would be met with much less resistance. People want to keep the status quo because what comes as a result of these agreements is much worse for the vast majority of people.

 

[Bluecondor]

That's true, but it's better late than never that they decide to wake up to the labor conditions that result from these "Free Trade" areas. I don't understand how anyone can say these agreements are fair (let alone "free"...but that's another post) for either country. Environmental standards and national healthcare/education/resources can all be bypassed if they're seen as an impediment to profits for US companies. The people who end up getting screwed are the poor and people who export products/services to the US, while the fat cats in both countries boost their profits. Blah. If people have any sense, this'll get shut down.

Ya - but think about it - if US companies were prohibited from operating anywhere that did have US legal protections and standards, that means you would have to exclude trade with many of the world's leading markets, such as Russia, China, India, and much of the Middle East as well.

While I agree that is is a problem that US companies can exploit lax social and labor standards, this problem should be addressed - not simply used as the basis for prohibiting trade. And, in particular, this shouldn't only be applied to Central America.

 

[pollo]

As an aside my international trade teacher said that empirically NAFTA has actually lowered environmental pollution due to the movement of capital intensive industries into US such as paper, textiles, etc due to comparative advantage. Since the US has stricter environmental standards pollution is curtailed- and whats left is the highly labor intensive industries which are less pollution intensive (maquiladora...etc...)

 

[Phoenix]

Well, it's not as easy as you would make it seem for these people to get back to work. What do you say to a person who spends his entire life training for a very specific job, and then loses that job to make way for lower cost imports from another country?

You're way in left field with that one as those aren't the people I'm talking about. The people who are holding up things are the people at the top and their lobbyists they employ. These are the people who need to get their act together and come up with ways to make it work by merging with/acquiring foreign businesses.

 

[Azih]

As an aside my international trade teacher said that empirically NAFTA has actually lowered environmental pollution due to the movement of capital intensive industries into US such as paper, textiles, etc due to comparative advantage. Since the US has stricter environmental standards pollution is curtailed- and whats left is the highly labor intensive industries which are less pollution intensive (maquiladora...etc...)

That of course doesn't take into account the huge increase in pollution that comes from the transportation of goods extremely long distances that is a part and parcel of global trade. Long haul trucking, ocean shipping etc. cause a lot of pollution that would be avoided by consuming locally produced goods instead of those produced halfway across the world.

Plus if your teacher's theory doesn't explain why India and China's level of contribution to the planet's pollution has been shooting up so fast. These countries have booming (polluting) industries because they're selling to the U.S.

 

[pollo]

hes talking about NAFTA and not the whole world.
For China and India, theyre relatively developing countries that can't be bothered with setting pollution standards just yet - theyre rising in terms of the environmental kuznet's curve. They need to pollute in order to produce at their levels now - given time they'll eventually improve their standards and will set the needed levels of allowed pollution.

empirically as well its been found that transportation costs are marginal when it comes to pollutions. Its production that makes up the bulk of CO2 pollutants and such.

 

[Azih]

So this is really just talking about Mexico as opposed to the U.S and Canada. Moving into Central America would blunt a large the argument somewhat as distances increase so much.

Even then it doesn't take into account agriculture. Production isn't pollution intensive at all, the distance the produce travels is the sole determinant of how much the environment is affected. Buying a tomato from Florida instead of an Ontario grown tomato makes a huge difference in impact for a Toronto grocery shopper.

given time they'll eventually improve their standards and will set the needed levels of allowed pollution

That's overly optimistic seeing as America and Canada are extremely developed and haven't set the needed levels of allowed pollution for themselves (Western European countries are much closer to the mark).

Rising environmental standarads increases cost of production. And there's nothing stopping corps from moving on from India to say Indonesia for example to keep costs low If India gets 'too environmentaly conscious'. Certainly China has seen no need to learn from North America's enviromental mistakes.

 

[Phoenix]

Rising environmental standarads increases cost of production. And there's nothing stopping corps from moving on from India to say Indonesia for example to keep costs low If India gets 'too environmentaly conscious'. Certainly China has seen no need to learn from North America's enviromental mistakes.

You're right about that. A quick look at the seafood and produce sections of your local walmart will tell the tale. Its telling that its cheaper for Walmart to get 'fresh' seafood from China

 

[alejob]

You're right about that. A quick look at the seafood and produce sections of your local walmart will tell the tale. Its telling that its cheaper for Walmart to get 'fresh' seafood from China

No kidding, just a couple of weeks ago I bought two chinese Tilapia fillets at Albertsons and they were cheaper than the ones I bought when I was in Costa Rica. And we grow them in our backyard. China is crazy.

Edit: But then again I paid 1 buck for three limes when I could just go pick them free of the trees back home.