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US Seeks to throw out terror convictions
- Thread starter Phoenix
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Tommie Hu$tle
Member
Yeah the one's being profiled.
The Black Gelding
Banned
Racial profiling only works when RESPONSABLE and KNOWLEDGEABLE people are doing it. They profile people in Israel and usually stop all terrorist acts in the airport. It is in fact, one of the safest places on Earth (their airport). The people doing the profiling KNOW what they are doing. They can spot when things are amiss. They don't randomly shake down people either. They know WHO to go for and WHAT questions to ask them. Nothing falls through the cracks with those guys.
The difference here is that the average cop/security guard can't tell the difference between a Mexican and an Arab, and they get paid shit. They also receive little training in their craft. This led to recklessness and irresponsability. They can't be trusted.
After 9/11 the feds should have taken the initiative and beefed up the security, to the same levels that the Secret Service gets. They can effectively handle most ill situations that may come their way. I think we the people deserve the same protection. Random searches and sloppy police work doesn't do this.
Bill Maher said it better in his book When You Ride Alone, You Ride with Bin Laden I suggest everybody reads it.
This administration failed us. Re-electing them would probably be among the dumbest thing the American populace has done, ever.
The difference here is that the average cop/security guard can't tell the difference between a Mexican and an Arab, and they get paid shit. They also receive little training in their craft. This led to recklessness and irresponsability. They can't be trusted.
After 9/11 the feds should have taken the initiative and beefed up the security, to the same levels that the Secret Service gets. They can effectively handle most ill situations that may come their way. I think we the people deserve the same protection. Random searches and sloppy police work doesn't do this.
Bill Maher said it better in his book When You Ride Alone, You Ride with Bin Laden I suggest everybody reads it.
This administration failed us. Re-electing them would probably be among the dumbest thing the American populace has done, ever.
Che said:
No I was just observing that the balance between safety/freedom is the eternal question in this situation. Which is more valuable? How safe is safe enough? What level of freedom is free enough? We make this trade daily by choosing to live in a society with laws. We give up certain personal freedoms to make living life in a civilization more agreeable. This is an extension of that balance. I just find this particular balancing act a particularly interesting argument, as I don't really know exactly where I stand.
This is a tangent, I think, but since it was brought up...
I think the problem is really when it's a matter of the security of a government vs. the freedom of its people. When you start making tradeoffs along those lines, it's the beginning of a road to tyranny and it's something all free people should watch for. To be sure, the people of America were at risk and in danger on 9/11, but one has to wonder how much the US government has exploited the situation in order to secure itself, in particular the powers of the intelligence and police communities over the people who held no animosity towards american life on 9/11.
There is also something to be said for the fact that, while jumping at shadows will occasionally cause you to find and kill a bear, mistakes are easy to make, and no one wants to be one of those mistakes. To that end, the question becomes "would you give your life or your freedom to be your country's mistake?" I would not answer yes to that, though given a credible and immediate threat I may give my life in active defense (can't say that I would, because I've never been put in that position). It's worrisome that the two scenarios have been equated in popular culture lately.
But then, I also find the very use of the word "Homeland" terribly depressing and scary.
I think the problem is really when it's a matter of the security of a government vs. the freedom of its people. When you start making tradeoffs along those lines, it's the beginning of a road to tyranny and it's something all free people should watch for. To be sure, the people of America were at risk and in danger on 9/11, but one has to wonder how much the US government has exploited the situation in order to secure itself, in particular the powers of the intelligence and police communities over the people who held no animosity towards american life on 9/11.
There is also something to be said for the fact that, while jumping at shadows will occasionally cause you to find and kill a bear, mistakes are easy to make, and no one wants to be one of those mistakes. To that end, the question becomes "would you give your life or your freedom to be your country's mistake?" I would not answer yes to that, though given a credible and immediate threat I may give my life in active defense (can't say that I would, because I've never been put in that position). It's worrisome that the two scenarios have been equated in popular culture lately.
But then, I also find the very use of the word "Homeland" terribly depressing and scary.
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
maharg said:
YES I thought it was just me that finds the use of the word Homeland scary.
Personally, I find the concept of intelligence disturbing. It's just other people who are selected to uphold the law, but they are as fallible as the ones they spy on. Anyone can make mistakes, and those mistakes can have serious consequences. Since 9/11, there have been too many compromises in the name of security, and we aren't any safer. The government can't stop everything, but they like to pretend that they can. When the next big disaster strikes, they'll blame it on some other "weakness" when in reality, it's just impossible to know what everyone everywhere is doing. So they profile, and that covers their profile fine. But they obviously had to adjust their profile since 9/11. And if Swedes suddenly start blowing themselves up somewhere, they'll have to profile them, and so on. It's a stupid, flawed system, and throwing money at something like that is scary. We've got the illusion of safety, and the illusion of freedom. PEACE.
maharg said:
IMO, it's all part of the same balance, as we don't live in a vaccuum where perfect decisions cannot be made and perfectly executed 100% of the time. We trade stability for the freedom to do what we want, though it's not a conscious decision for the most part, as we are forced to live our life in the constraints that we are born into, to some degree. Some are forced to endure truly oppressive regimes so that they are not put to death. Every once in a while someone challenges the status quo, for better or worse. Martin Luther King, Jr is probably the best example of somebody in the USA that chose not to play with the hand dealt to him and changed the country for the better because of it.
:lolPhoenix said:
To get back to what I said since it actually fetched a response in this thread. I was definately being sarcastic, 100%.
I do think that it is important to be vigilant and responsive to changing threats in our world, but simultaneously I feel that, what we sometimes call "alarmists," have a point about how these policies, de jure or de facto, can have undesired effects. After all, a set of rules is only as careful and responsible as the people carying them out.
I don't believe this is a direct result of things like the patriot act (which I don't fully support) though inderectly as it is likely some of its powers were used while building this "case", but it is part of a systemic problem in which perhaps the vigorous desire to find "terrorists" leads to sloppy work. These people should come to justice for what ever greivences they commited, but I would sure like to see this system working smart, and not just on pure testosterone, so that "the right people come to the right justice"
I have absolutely no faith in the domestic war on terror. I feel that the great majority of the arrests we see are only for show, and aren't based on any credible information.
I'd like to post some concrete examples, but I'm afraid I'll be pretty busy this week. Here is a link to an article that show what I mean.
LOCAL RELATIVES RALLY BEHIND ARMY CHAPLAIN ACCUSED, THEN CLEARED OF ESPIONAGE
http://westvalleyview.com/WESTVALLEYVIEW/myarticles.asp?P=782978&S=365&PubID=12642
We know that 2 of the largest Muslim Charity organizations in the US were shut down, and they were recently cleared of all charges. It was just a nasty knee jerk reaction that directly affected 2 moderate Muslim organizations.
I'll go as far as to say that most (as in 95%) of the arrests we see are phony. I do take the thousands arrested just after 9/11 (and let go after...sometimes years after) into account when I say 95%.
I'd like to post some concrete examples, but I'm afraid I'll be pretty busy this week. Here is a link to an article that show what I mean.
LOCAL RELATIVES RALLY BEHIND ARMY CHAPLAIN ACCUSED, THEN CLEARED OF ESPIONAGE
http://westvalleyview.com/WESTVALLEYVIEW/myarticles.asp?P=782978&S=365&PubID=12642
We know that 2 of the largest Muslim Charity organizations in the US were shut down, and they were recently cleared of all charges. It was just a nasty knee jerk reaction that directly affected 2 moderate Muslim organizations.
I'll go as far as to say that most (as in 95%) of the arrests we see are phony. I do take the thousands arrested just after 9/11 (and let go after...sometimes years after) into account when I say 95%.
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