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[ShadowRed]

Why no talk about this? I saw the video on Fox news but they blanked out the shooting. Anyhow I say nothing will happen with this the same as with the prison mistreatment incident.


Video Catches Marine Shooting Injured Enemy
Monday, November 15, 2004

WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is investigating the fatal shooting of a wounded enemy fighter in Iraq by a U.S. Marine that was captured on videotape.

The shooting happened during fighting in Fallujah (search) at a mosque between insurgents and Marines (search) from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, according to unidentified embedded reporters and the Pentagon.

The Marines from that regiment came under fire by rebel forces stationed at the mosque on Friday, and U.S. forces responded by launching machine-gun and tank strikes, according to reports from the field. Ten insurgents were killed and five wounded in the fighting, FOX News has learned.

The following day, another set of Marines from the same unit engaged in a battle at the same mosque after observing movement inside. An embedded correspondent reported seeing fresh gunshot wounds on those injured the previous day.

During the second-day operation, one of the Marines came upon a wounded insurgent lying on the floor. On the tape, Marines wielding machine guns are seen going into the mosque and approaching a couple of Iraqi fighters lying on the floor. One of the Marines is heard repeatedly shouting, “He’s faking he’s dead!”


The Marine then apparently fired a single shot into the wounded man’s head — which was heard and caught on videotape but blacked out when the tape was aired. A voice can be heard saying, “He’s dead now."

Shooting an unarmed, wounded combatant is considered a violation of the rules of war.

Pentagon sources told FOX News that the Marine who shot the wounded Iraqi has been taken off the battlefield and the incident is under investigation. It could have serious implications for the U.S. Marines and their conduct on the battlefield.

But military sources also told FOX News that enemy fighters have used the tactic of feigning a wound to draw U.S. soldiers in, then opening fire on them. The Marine who apparently killed the injured fighter had reportedly been shot in the face the day before, FOX News has learned.

Insurgents have also been known to rig dead bodies with explosive devices that go off when U.S. troops approach.

FOX News' Greg Kelly and Catherine Donaldson-Evans contributed to this report.

 

[Ecrofirt]

because if it was an unarmed wounded american, one of those iraqis would have just let him live... :rolleyes.


It sounds like I'm condoning the act, but I'm really not. +kb his ass.

 

[Cloudy]

because if it was an unarmed wounded american, one of those iraqis would have just let him live... :rolleyes.

You're comparing US soldiers to insurgents? Why should they sink to the same level?

 

[Ecrofirt]

if you read the rest, I said I didn't agree with it.

Shit like that happens in war, but that doesn't make it right.

 

[xexex]

BREAKING NEWS....WE INTURUPT OUR REGULARLY SCEDUALED PROGRAM TO INFORM YOU THAT....SOME UNKNOWN IRAQI WAS KILLED BY U.S. FORCES. WE'LL HAVE MORE ON THUS STUNNING DEVELOPMENT AT THE TOP OF THE HOUR.

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

Pffft the US and rules? PFFFFT

 

[Master Z]

This doesn't surprise me. It's war, baby. All types of fucked up shit happens in the heat of battle. What do you expect from men who are trained to kill the enemy with extreme prejudice?

 

[bionic77]

This doesn't surprise me. It's war, baby. All types of fucked up shit happens in the heat of battle. What do you expect from men who are trained to kill the enemy with extreme prejudice?

It shouldn't surprise anyone except for the people who actually buy into the war propoganda.

 

[MIMIC]

BREAKING NEWS....WE INTURUPT OUR REGULARLY SCEDUALED PROGRAM TO INFORM YOU THAT....SOME UNKNOWN IRAQI WAS KILLED BY U.S. FORCES. WE'LL HAVE MORE ON THUS STUNNING DEVELOPMENT AT THE TOP OF THE HOUR.

***CNN BREAKING NEWS***

FALLUJAH, Iraq — In an attempt to eliminate the wide spread mass-murder under the regime of Saddam Hussein, the U.S. has adopted a new strategy at fighting the violence: military forces are doling out small doses of civilian carnage, similar to the practices of Saddam Hussein, lessening in intensity of each incident, to "condition" the Iraqis into accepting a non-violent government.

Asked to comment on the controversial strategy, President Bush compared it to "quit[ting] smoking."

"It's like we're conditioning them to quit smoking," the president reponded to reporters' questions. "You can't just end it all at once. That's hard work. Especially trying to quit snortin' crack cocaine. You gotta make it less and less each time. That's what we're doin'."

U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan was heard murmuring expletives, calling Bush a "stupid f**ktard."

 

[belgurdo]

the US...rules?

AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!

GET DEM UNARMED A-RABS

 

[Spike Spiegel]

Why no talk about this? I saw the video on Fox news but they blanked out the shooting. Anyhow I say nothing will happen with this the same as with the prison mistreatment incident.

Uh, what? Trials are still ongoing in the Abu Ghraib scandal; IIRC the most recently convicted US soldier received 8 years of prison in sentencing. This shooting incident will be investigated, and prosecuted if the findings merit action.


And speaking of "no talk"...

 

[Phoenix]

Why no talk about this? I saw the video on Fox news but they blanked out the shooting. Anyhow I say nothing will happen with this the same as with the prison mistreatment incident.

Well first off therre are plenty of people talking about it. CNN hasn't stopped talking about it every hour since they received the footage. They've had 3 of their shows cover it already. Second there have been a few dishonorble discharges and 2 soldiers (I believe that's the number) are going to military prison for their actions.

 

[ShadowRed]

Well first off therre are plenty of people talking about it. CNN hasn't stopped talking about it every hour since they received the footage. They've had 3 of their shows cover it already. Second there have been a few dishonorble discharges and 2 soldiers (I believe that's the number) are going to military prison for their actions.

Dude yo know I ment here on this board, how do you think I found out about it. I would have thought the board would have had a couple pages of replies going about this by the time I signed on.

 

[cubanb]

Dude yo know I ment here on this board, how do you think I found out about it. I would have thought the board would have had a couple pages of replies going about this by the time I signed on.

we are too worried about how the retard will manage to cash his million pennies to talk about this

 

[Phoenix]

Dude yo know I ment here on this board, how do you think I found out about it. I would have thought the board would have had a couple pages of replies going about this by the time I signed on.

The only thing I was able to determine from the footage was that he was injured before he was shot (see the full footage). He was armed at some point and the entry into the building was part of the sweep to clear the building. Whether or not the killing was justified will be investigated the same way it was for the poor guy who was shot in the street in some footage during the Iraq war. Once you zoom all the way back out (because that video was taken from a news camera with obscene levels of zoom) and see the situation from the soldiers perspective, the only thing they would have reasonably been able to see was a soldier who was wounded seconds before moving around on the ground but you couldn't tell what he was trying to do.

The 'kill em at any cost' guys are getting caught on film and the video is making its way up the chain of command.

 

[ShadowRed]

The only thing I was able to determine from the footage was that he was injured before he was shot (see the full footage). He was armed at some point and the entry into the building was part of the sweep to clear the building. Whether or not the killing was justified will be investigated the same way it was for the poor guy who was shot in the street in some footage during the Iraq war. Once you zoom all the way back out (because that video was taken from a news camera with obscene levels of zoom) and see the situation from the soldiers perspective, the only thing they would have reasonably been able to see was a soldier who was wounded seconds before moving around on the ground but you couldn't tell what he was trying to do.

The 'kill em at any cost' guys are getting caught on film and the video is making its way up the chain of command.

Please they were in the Mosque the day before and knew there was injured fighters there. They come back and the injured guy is still there he starts to move they shout he's faking and ten seconds after they realise he's not dead they shoot him point blank with a shotgun. I'm pretty sure you and others will claim that they didn't know if the guy was faking or if he was actually injured. Well he has to be one hell of a fucking actor to lay around 2 fucking days so he could sucker in some unsuspecting army guy, especially when he had a chance to do it the day before.

 

[Phoenix]

Please they were in the Mosque the day before and knew there was injured fighters there. They come back and the injured guy is still there he starts to move they shout he's faking and ten seconds after they realise he's not dead they shoot him point blank with a shotgun. I'm pretty sure you and others will claim that they didn't know if the guy was faking or if he was actually injured. Well he has to be one hell of a fucking actor to lay around 2 fucking days so he could sucker in some unsuspecting army guy, especially when he had a chance to do it the day before.

The man was shot in the head at close range Saturday by a Marine who found him among a group of wounded men. The wounded men were found in a mosque that Marines said had been the source of small-arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire the previous day.

...


The Marines told the pool reporter that the wounded men would be left behind for others to pick up and move to the rear for treatment. But Saturday, another squad of Marines found that the mosque had been reoccupied by insurgents and attacked it again, only to find the same wounded men inside.

Four of the men appeared to have been shot again in Saturday's fighting, and one of them appeared to be dead, according to the pool report. In the video, a Marine was seen noticing that one of the men appeared to be breathing.

They reswept an area that they were fired upon again, so lets first get the facts of what happened straight.

 

[Fusebox]

Meanwhile ... Iraq soldiers invite US forces over to dinner. Scones are served.

What a stupid beat-up story.

 

[Socreges]

Meanwhile ... Iraq soldiers invite US forces over to dinner. Scones are served.

What a stupid beat-up story.

Besides implementation of supposed universal morals, the idea here is that rules such as these establish norms. So that when, for instance, an injured American is approached by a Chinese soldier (in the year 2056), that Chinese soldier will not kill him. Not just as respect for the 'code', but as an understanding that if positions were reversed his life would be spared.

 

[bionic77]

Besides implementation of supposed universal morals, the idea here is that rules such as these establish norms. So that when, for instance, an injured American is approached by a Chinese soldier (in the year 2056), that Chinese soldier will not kill him. Not just as respect for the 'code', but as an understanding that if positions were reversed his life would be spared.

Bah, I don't think those morals ever existed in war. You just hear it that way from the victorius army. War is an ugly thing and this kind of thing is just to be expected.

 

[Socreges]

Bah, I don't think those morals ever existed in war. You just hear it that way from the victorius army. War is an ugly thing and this kind of thing is just to be expected.

"Morals" in war are a relatively recent thing and are barely present. I'm only explaining the concept behind them, why soldiers should ideally adhere, and why popularizing the whole issue is significant.

And people, please quit excusing war as "ugly". Of course it is, but that doesn't mean people can't be responsible. If the marine genuinely felt endangered, then the state of war is applicable and he shouldn't be punished, but it sounds like what he did was completely unnecessary.

There's a philosophy to war. Considering human nature, you can justify a whole lot. But meaningless killing goes beyond that.

 

[Drozmight]

I wonder how Fox News tried to justify this one? They probably had an "expert" come on and say something along the lines of, "Now THAT'S how you deal with terrorism! USA! USA!" Then the liberal guest said, "I agree, can I have my paycheck now?" Then Gretta walked in and they all started making out while Bill was in the background caressing a vibrator, watching and waiting for the opportunity to jump in.

 

[luxsol]

I wonder how Fox News tried to justify this one? They probably had an "expert" come on and say something along the lines of, "Now THAT'S how you deal with terrorism! USA! USA!" Then the liberal guest said, "I agree, can I have my paycheck now?" Then Gretta walked in and they all started making out while Bill was in the background caressing a vibrator, watching and waiting for the opportunity to jump in.

Heh.

Saw Bill O'Reilly stating something like "If I were in this marine's place I would have done the same thing. They were shooting at me recently and now were playing dead. If i saw him move I would have shot at him too."

Course, marines are supposed to control their fire better than that. Considering that there was a photo journalist there, I would assume they would try harder to control themselves, so the marine shooting probably thought the insurgent was reaching for something.

Any place to see the video?

 

[Socreges]

Course, marines are supposed to control their fire better than that. Considering that there was a photo journalist there, I would assume they would try harder to control themselves, so the marine shooting probably thought the insurgent was reaching for something.

Probably? But everything written so far has kind of expelled any just cause, in my mind. Of course, if he genuinely was threatened, then he shouldn't be in any trouble.

 

[luxsol]

Yeah, "probably" because I haven't seen the video, only the cut up stuff shown on TV.

And yeah, because they're supposed to be trained better and control their actions, if there was no justifible cause they should really try him as hard as possible.

 

[Azih]

To everyone defending or downplaying this incident. Reverse the situation.

Imagine if it was an Iraqi insurgent caught on tape shooting an unarmed wounded American soldier in the head. You feel that rage? That's what the fuck you should be feeling about this incident. Because you sure as hell wouldn't be making stupid comments like "it's just war baby".

 

[Ripclawe]

To everyone defending or downplaying this incident. Reverse the situation.

Imagine if it was an Iraqi insurgent caught on tape shooting an unarmed wounded American soldier in the head. You feel that rage? That's what the fuck you should be feeling about this incident. Because you sure as hell wouldn't be making stupid comments like "it's just war baby".

I'm still waiting for the outrage over the slaughterhouses, the hostages and the woman who the insurgents cut off her arms,legs, throat.

I don't feel anything about this situation that under the circumstances the Marine did the right action he thought was necessary, they have been pulling the play dead routine for a while, shooting from Mosques(that's an automatic no no) I would not take any chances.

I did see this Sites person looking very nervous reading a statement about how professional the marines are yadda yadda..

 

[Drozmight]

I'm still waiting for the outrage over the slaughterhouses, the hostages and the woman who the insurgents cut off her arms,legs, throat.

I don't feel anything about this situation that under the circumstances the Marine did the right action he thought was necessary, they have been pulling the play dead routine for a while, shooting from Mosques(that's an automatic no no) I would not take any chances.

I did see this Sites person looking very nervous reading a statement about how professional the marines are yadda yadda..

I'm pretty amazed and angry about those "slaughter houses"... but that type of thing has come to be pretty common or in a way, expected from insurgents. It's one thing when the insurgents do something like this, but because you wouldn't expect to see an american soldier doing it, there is even more outrage. I guess it's just the media influence on us all.

 

[luxsol]

I'm pretty amazed and angry about those "slaughter houses"... but that type of thing has come to be pretty common or in a way, expected from insurgents. It's one thing when the insurgents do something like this, but because you wouldn't expect to see an american soldier doing it, there is even more outrage. I guess it's just the media influence on us all.

Exactly, American soldiers are properly trained (unlike many of those insurgents) and it shouldn't be expected.

 

[Ripclawe]

Exactly, American soldiers are properly trained (unlike many of those insurgents) and it shouldn't be expected.

A Marine is properly trained to make conclusions about a situation and act quickly, It's a hostile environment, with an insurgent he sees as "playing dead". He didn't know this was the same group that was there yesterday.


There would be a case for OMG IT'S WAR CRIME if there was footage of the guy with his hands in the air not doing anything and he got shot just like that.

 

[luxsol]

A Marine is properly trained to make conclusions about a situation and act quickly, It's a hostile environment, with an insurgent he sees as "playing dead". He didn't know this was the same group that was there yesterday.


There would be a case for OMG IT'S WAR CRIME if there was footage of the guy with his hands in the air not doing anything and he got shot just like that.

And the investigation will tell whether what he did was justified or not. I doubt everyone here who has commented has seen the full footage of the situation so it's not right for us to say "OMG IT'S A WAR CRIME" or not one. We'll just wait and see.

 

[Cool]

Comments on video:

This video served as a fine reminder that I never want to go to war, and how much I don't want a draft when more and more it seems like it's going to be my miserable manifest destiny to live in America when it will be reenstated.

 

[MrPing1000]

The footage was shown on UK TV at the weekend (at like 2pm) Bad bad Americans. The whole army is like the film "Casualties of War"

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Guess what? Who gives a fuck, it's war people die all the damn time. You know what those guys are fighting a battle with an unknown emeny. How is he supposed to know. Down the street 2 clicks from where the guy was 2 marines were blown up when they went went to check on a corpse that was rigged to explode. So guess what the way I see it if you are in the way you get killed you don't want to get killed get the hell out of the way. Once a Mosque is holding arms and fighters it isn't a holy site it and everyone in it is a target.


And for the record I am a bleeding heart liberal.

 

[Azih]

I'm still waiting for the outrage over the slaughterhouses, the hostages and the woman who the insurgents cut off her arms,legs, throat.

How DARE you imply that I do not feel complete and total outrage on these actions? How DARE you even insinuate that I do not wish that the perpetrators of these actions not only die in the most painful way imaginable and then spend an eternity suffering.

and how DARE you seek to justify American brutality by citing greater insurgent brutality?

 

[Azih]

Guess what? Who gives a fuck, it's war people die all the damn
time.

See my statement about reversing the situation.

Edit: Ok, here's a question, the events at Abu Gharib prison have been defended, and a marine shooting a wounded man in the head has been defended, is there anything that the U.S army could do that to a muslim adult male that would be considered as over the line by apologists?

 

[Drozmight]

the events at Abu Gharib prison have been defended

People actually tried to justify that s**t?

 

[Azih]

People actually tried to justify that s**t?

Yes, the most insane defense (and they were almost all crazy) compared it to 'hazing' at frat houses.

 

[Phoenix]

See my statement about reversing the situation.

Edit: Ok, here's a question, the events at Abu Gharib prison have been defended, and a marine shooting a wounded man in the head has been defended, is there anything that the U.S army could do that to a muslim adult male that would be considered as over the line by apologists?

* Abu Gharib cannot be defended
* Firing a AGM-64 onto a burning APC in a crowded downtown area cannot be defended


This situation is a little bit different because at the moment I lack enough information to draw conclusions about it. There are circumstances that may not make this situation not a war crime, but understandable. When engaged in combat it IS difficult to enforce the rules of engagement as every situation is different. This situation is a little bit complicated and those I currently lean towards "crime", I don't really have enough information to know and am surprised that other people feel they do.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

See my statement about reversing the situation.

Edit: Ok, here's a question, the events at Abu Gharib prison have been defended, and a marine shooting a wounded man in the head has been defended, is there anything that the U.S army could do that to a muslim adult male that would be considered as over the line by apologists?

I cannot and will not defend Abu Gharib. That is one of the most shameful acts in US military history. That is shameful and makes the whole of America look bad.

To me the rules blur while you are IN combat. I don't have long to speak so I'll give more details later. I think the marine under the stress of war erred on the side of caution. If the guy was laying on a grenade and set it off killing him and his squadmates then who is a bad guy?

 

[Azih]

This situation is a little bit different because at the moment I lack enough information to draw conclusions about it. There are circumstances that may not make this situation not a war crime, but understandable. When engaged in combat it IS difficult to enforce the rules of engagement as every situation is different. This situation is a little bit complicated and those I currently lean towards "crime", I don't really have enough information to know and am surprised that other people feel they do.

This I can agree with, there may have been mitigating factors in this case as it was clearly combat conditions, but it seems clear that the guy on the ground was unarmed and wounded so at the absolute best this would be an example of some of the worst horrors of war and at worst this would be an act of cold blooded murder with the full connotations of hate and evil that the term 'war crimes' evokes.

 

[Spike Spiegel]

To me the rules blur while you are IN combat. I don't have long to speak so I'll give more details later. I think the marine under the stress of war erred on the side of caution. If the guy was laying on a grenade and set it off killing him and his squadmates then who is a bad guy?

Bingo. What if this guy had been laying on a grenade, and they'd tried to cuff him or sent a medic over to treat him? Bleeding hearts can get you killed in combat, and a clever enemy will take advantage of acts of compassion and human decency.

 

[Azih]

I think the marine under the stress of war erred on the side of caution.?

'erring on the side of caution' requires you to kill a wounded man? See taken to a certain point that would require you to kill every wounded Iraqi in Falluja. So is there any limit to the amount of errors that can be excused by caution?


Since these men had been checked by other U.S soldiers and were left in the mosque to be moved to the back it would seem that the executioner in this case didn't do anything more than note the guy wasn't dead and shot him.

 

[UltimateMarioMan]

They better not hold the marine accountable. Its obvious he cracked under the strain of combat. He's probably seen fellow marines killed by enemy soldiers playing dead. Despite what alot of people in this thread seem to think soldiers even with their training are still human.

 

[Phoenix]

They better not hold the marine accountable. Its obvious he cracked under the strain of combat. He's probably seen fellow marines killed by enemy soldiers playing dead. Despite what alot of people in this thread seem to think soldiers even with their training are still human.

Yes and being human means having humanity. "Cracking under the strain of combat" has never been a reliable defense in military tribunals any more than temporary insanity dismisses actions of civillians.

One can't yell "he's coming right for us" and then be justified in any action taken

 

[Spike Spiegel]

U.S. Marines Rally Round Iraq Probe Comrade

 

[Socreges]

I'm not going to bother replying to what's been said since my last reply. I've given my piece.

"I can see why he would do it. He was probably running around being shot at for days on end in Falluja. There should be an investigation but they should look into the circumstances," said Lance Corporal Christopher Hanson.

That IS the investigation, no?

"I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."

Sergeant Graham certainly sounds like a good authority on the matter.

"It's all political. This Marine has been under attack for days. It has nothing to do with what he did," said Corporal Keith Hoy, 23.

Well, that's interesting. It's possible then that he WAS threatened and they're just making a mountain out of a mole hill. Though... why?

 

[Azih]

Threatened because the unarmed wounded guy on the floor genuinely posed a risk to his life and threatened because he was suffering from war stress and paranoia are two completely different things.

 

[Socreges]

Oh yeah, agreed.

I actually misunderstood that last quote. I thought the person was saying that the marine was under attack by the military after saying that "it's all political", when I suppose he was excusing the guy because he had been in a war situation recently. So, if it has "nothing to do with what he did", then what is 'political' about the hub-bub?

 

[Ripclawe]

See my statement about reversing the situation.

Edit: Ok, here's a question, the events at Abu Gharib prison have been defended, and a marine shooting a wounded man in the head has been defended, is there anything that the U.S army could do that to a muslim adult male that would be considered as over the line by apologists?

When they start beheading people, cutting off limbs and legs and have slaughterhouses, then you have a point and don't start the Muslim victim BS. These people are so far from being Muslims or rational human beings its scary. They should be put down as quick as possible like the garbage that they are.

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=1915

Falluja (AsiaNews/Agencies) – Now that Falluja has fallen to US and Iraqi troops, information is coming to light about the 8-month reign of terror installed by Iraqi insurgents and foreign terrorists.

The Mujahedeen Advisory Council (MAC) chaired by hard-line cleric Abdallah Janabi was made up of radical clergymen and militants. Decrees were enforced by violence and terror.

Falluja residents say that selling video and music cassettes was forbidden; of course, selling alcohol, too, was outlawed. Anyone violator was flogged.

Women had to cover themselves from head to toe or they could face the death penalty.

Given the number of mutilated bodies of women US troops found, this was no idle threat.

US soldiers also found charred bodies and torture chambers in various homes in the city
Some residents said: “We would see unknown corpses around the city all the time.”

“We were scared of the Mujahadeen, we were frightened of them,” confided 24-year-old Iyad Assam. “They would wear black masks, carry rocket-propelled grenades and Kalashnikovs, and search streets and alleys. When they had a problem with a resident they either killed him or threw him in jail.”

“I would hear stories,” he added, “about how they executed five men one day and seven another for collaborating with the Americans.”

Many Falluja residents complain about what US military action did, about the many “innocent killed in the bombings”; still they wish “the Americans had come here the very first day and not waited eight months to retake the city”.

'erring on the side of caution' requires you to kill a wounded man? See taken to a certain point that would require you to kill every wounded Iraqi in Falluja. So is there any limit to the amount of errors that can be excused by caution?

see above, the insurgents have done the play dead, boobytrapped their own bodies and other dead bodies routines, they don't follow the "rules of engagement" the Marine was on the side of caution.