Why do people keep praising mouse + keyboard combo for FPSs?

T

thorns

Banned
People speak as if mouse + keyboard is THE way to play FPSs. I think that is totally wrong.

I can understand that the mouse is more natural than an analog stick for aiming, but I don't understand why the keyboard gets thrown into the mix as well. Keyboard is a device made for text input, not playing games. It is not a good device to control first person movement. An analog stick is MUCH better for movement, since it allows you true 360 degrees of movement along with allowing you to control the speed of the movement in a more natural way. Analog triggers allow you to control the rate of fire (on the xbox controller anyway) of automatic weapons in a natural way also.

There's no way that a keyboard can be the best way of controlling a FPS. I think a control scheme combining the benefits of mouse aiming + fully analog aiming + analog firing would be the best, however there's no such controller yet.
 
actually there is a controller like that.
I've seen one a couple of years (maybe 10 or so) ago on
a Quake arcade machine in Las Vegas.
It's about time a new mouse + left-hand pad gets released.

But I'd rather play a FPS with mouse/KB than with any controller....
 
Keyboard is a device made for text input, not playing games. It is not a good device to control first person movement. An analog stick is MUCH better for movement, since it allows you true 360 degrees of movement along with allowing you to control the speed of the movement in a more natural way. Analog triggers allow you to control the rate of fire (on the xbox controller anyway) of automatic weapons in a natural way also.

There's no way that a keyboard can be the best way of controlling a FPS. I think a control scheme combining the benefits of mouse aiming + fully analog aiming + analog firing would be the best, however there's no such controller yet.
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Simply because placing your thumb on an analog stick leaves the rest of that hand pretty much useless save for an L trigger. I guess they could line buttons up beneath L, but it wouldn't be half as useful as having a shitload of keys that can be bound to anything you'd want them to.

I couldn't begin to play Threewave without having many of the keys near WASD (though I might shift to ESDF) set to individual weapons.
 
The KB is mixed with the mouse because it is it's counter part.

I don't want to be holding anything with one hand and simultaneously using it to control movement.

I am getting used to two new things for me. using the keyboard and mouse combo by using the left side of the keyboard instead of the right directional pads, and i am learning how to use the gamepad more efficiently with fps.
 
I love keyboard + mouse..why?

Cause when i rail someone from across the map from midair and doing a 180 spin i can instantly type "You suck ass biatch" :D
 
The only thing that the keyboard lacks is analog controls. To run slow or fast, you have to hold a key. Other than that, keyboard + mouse >>>>>>>>> controller

Some games are too sophisticated that require a lot of buttons, and the keyboard is great for this. Keyboard makes it easier to switch to a particular gun you want instead of going through a menu like in Socom 2. I don't see how analog triggers make FPS better, I haven't seen a game that actually uses the trigger properly.

Controllers for FPS suck, period
 
thorns said:
I don't understand why the keyboard gets thrown into the mix as well.
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Large amount of bindable buttons; but I agree with you anyway. Use the N52, myself.

Analog triggers allow you to control the rate of fire (on the xbox controller anyway) of automatic weapons in a natural way also.
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1. How is that natural or realistic? (not sure what you meant to say)

2. What games allow fire control like that?
 
Saim pretty much brings up a valid point. Also, keyboard allows for damned near instantaneous change of movement direction. Less motion needed to strafe/move left/right.
 
Forward/Backward, strafe left, strafe right. You don't need a 360 degree motion since you have the mouse to adjust your heading & vertical aiming. So the only thing analog would add to the movement keys is the ability to vary your speed.

But beyond that, the main advantage to using four keys on the keyboard for movement is that your hand has access to lots of surrounding keys for more functions. An analog stick would limit those choices. I think that if you're not going to use a standard keyboard, the best bet is something like Belkin's Nostromo:

FUL1_F8GFPC100.jpg


or a ZBoard for the game in question:


click thumbnail for detailed image

In short, people praise keyboard+mouse for FPS games because it offers the best combination of precision control and access to lots of functions.
 
Mouse + Keyboard is great for competition (seeing how far your own skills can be taken) .... but I'll be damned if it doesn't cut the personality out of most games.......



After playing Metroid all other FPS games feel like little cameras on sticks....




I won't be satisfied 'till I'm online with Halo 2 and Mater Chief has a limp and some mud on his visor after getting shot....
HL2 was AMAZING ... but Gordon had no personality .......... he's a modest scientist, but he felt like a fly-by-wire remote hovering unit.

Analog control is best for the X-axis ... w-a-s-d is only 8 different directions, and a fixed speed at best ... and it's really starting to have a play on level design.
 
we as humans move at different rates of speed not because we want to, but because we have to. if any of us could sustain a full on run at 100% speed indefinitely we probably would. So where does that come into with shooters?

Because even though we as humans (again) can move at variable rates and an analog stick represents this, is a shotoer we are pretty much always going to want to run. the only time this isn't true is for sneaking, which can be accomplished with a toggle.

So yes, an analog stick is a better representation of how we move when compared to a keyboard, but in today's typical shooters we are either moving full speed, we are stealthing, or we are standing still. This can all be fully represented with a keyboard just as well as it can be with an analog stick.

Also it is easier to move straight forward with NO deviation (not even a 2° deviation) on a keyboard than an analog stick, and in a genre where precision is rewarded this is a pretty big deal. Finally, keyboard has dozens of other keys at your finger tips whereas dual analog pretty much knock that entire hand out except for should buttons, and then usually only one shoulder at a time.

none of this is saying "You're an idiot, of course it's better." Just my reasoning on why a mouse AND keyboard setup is superior to dual analog. Keyboard compared to analog is obviously far worse, but in the genre and when coupled with a mouse they beat dual analog. Now obviously there are things dual analog designers can do to counter this (Halo 2), but I still contend that two players of equal skill, one on mouse/keyboard and the other on dual analog, the mouse keyboard player will win everytime.
 
I'm not saying dual analog is superior to mouse + keyboard, just saying that mouse & keyboard has its shortcomings also and is not the ultimate way to control first person shooters. Changing movement speed with a toggle button is totally unnecessary and cumbersome in my opinion. And in sneaking type of games or where you want to just place your character on the corner of a wall perfectly without exposing yourself, such things are important, with keyboard such things are quite hard to do.

I agree with having access to lots of buttons, but in my opinion such an excess of buttons should not be necessary in a FPS, it is only acceptable if you are operating an aircraft or something like that. It is possible to go a long way with context sensitive buttons.

About analog firing, i meant something like pressing the trigger lightly could fire one or two rounds, while fully pressing would make it go fully automatic. it is more difficult to achieve such precision on a keyboard. I think in the original Halo the ROF of the assault rifle depended on how hard you pressed the trigger, i'm not 100% sure though.

It's about time a new way of controlling FPSs becomes standard, combining advantages of both.
 
As far as precision is concerned, I don't think you can definitively say one is better than the other. It depends on what you've become used to. Just because YOU can't use a controller well doesn't mean others can't.
 
borghe said:
if any of us could sustain a full on run at 100% speed indefinitely we probably would. So where does that come into with shooters?
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Well, the three biggest PC shooters this year all had depleting stamina bars. Them days might be over.

Also it is easier to move straight forward with NO deviation (not even a 2° deviation) on a keyboard than an analog stick
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I'm thinking that most (all) dual analog FPS games chop that stick up into eight directions, so a few dgrees off matters not.

Letting this dialouge once again slip into Mouse vs Analog gets us nowhere. Instead let's dream of new control designs made to merge the best of both worlds.

Mine would be something akin to gluing a 5 button trackball onto the back of a N52, but the d-pad has been replaced with an analog stick.

This is actually pretty much my PC FPS setup, plus a stick and designed to be held while used. When I use my current setup, the only finger that doesn't get used is my right pinky, every other finger can find a job to do.
 
I believe it's the fact that they lack the skill to adapt to the analog controller. The very skilled gamer doesn't bitch. He / She adapts.
 
thorns said:
About analog firing, i meant something like pressing the trigger lightly could fire one or two rounds, while fully pressing would make it go fully automatic. it is more difficult to achieve such precision on a keyboard. I think in the original Halo the ROF of the assault rifle depended on how hard you pressed the trigger, i'm not 100% sure though.
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Halo didn't do that, but it can be achieved by pressing the trigger for a very short time

If anything, button press duration makes more sense than pressure.
 
"I believe it's the fact that they lack the skill to adapt to the analog controller. The very skilled gamer doesn't bitch."

Yeah, because it takes so much skill to use a lesser device. KB/Mouse just gets the job done *better*.
 
Galian Beast said:
With practice you can.
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An average FPS player with a Mouse+Keyboard will still own a skilled FPS player with a controller.

This is one of the stupidest debates ever.
 
One thing you have to realise is that the seperation of functions is actually very very neat in the keyboard/mouse setup. With the left hand pressing keys and the right hand moving the mouse around the connection between 'mouse=look / keyboard=move' is much much more distinct then 'left analog stick=move/right analog stick=look' setup on controllers. Every FPS console noob I've seen has the issue with looking around like crazy whe trying to move forward and hell I remember running around while staring at my feet a whole lot when I first played Halo. On keyboard/mouse these issues are minimized.

Plus the easy availability of Shift, Ctrl, the number keys, Q, E, F , Z , X and C is ferking necessary for a lot of games (compare Deus Ex:IW controls on xbox to PC).


Edit: And yeah mouselook makes the right analog stick its bitch.
 
john2kx said:
i like using the mouse for aiming and looking, but i hate using the keyboard for moving.
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I'm total disagreement. I think the mouse+keyboard allows for better movement and aiming.
 
A needless debate. Keyboard + mouse gives far greater control and precision than any gamepad available currently (though I am going to give that Belkin Nostromo a try to facilitate on-the-couch PC gaming - though that is basically directly derived from the keyboard/mouse).

I will say this though: I think for a lot of people who aren't used to it, there definitely is a "what's the big deal with wasd?" attitude. I was the same before a summer of UT2K4 converted me. But once you are converted, there is no going back.
 
I agree that it'd be nice to see a real alternative to the keyboard for the left-hand controller in PC gaming. Something like a keyboard with analog pressure-sensitive WASD keys could be a good start, as having to hold additional buttons for run/slow actions is kind of goofy. I use the Nostromo N52 myself, and while I think it's an improvement, it's not a completely idea solution. The keyboard was never intended to be a gaming controller, it's just that it happens to have a shitload of bindable keys and gamers have adapted it into a controller, and as time has proven, a pretty adequate one. This is not to say it couldn't stand improvement.
 
I had the same feeling when I first got into pc shooters. I thought the idea of playing the keyboard and mouse was beyond retarded. It seems like every gamepad loving person hops on a pc and thinks there just "the one" and will be just fine with a controller, yeah right! On straight, flat maps I used to do ok, but once you get to the larger muti-tiered maps where you have to shoot at people from all different angles I can't imagine using a joy. I just don't see how you can substitute the precision of mouse aiming.

Just keep at it, after a while WASD will become so comfortable to you before you even notice it. Two years ago I used to have shit-fits about games that wouldn't support my gamepads, now I go crazy over games(older ones) that won't let me configure a WASD setup. :lol
 
If you had two people of equal fps capability and gave a different one to each the keyboard + mouse player would own the controller player EVERY SINGLE TIME. Or say you gave them each a month to practice their respective control devices. The keyboard and mouse player would own the controller player EVERY SINGLE TIME. Mouse aiming is much more precise any way you toss it, and fps's boil down to hitting targets the fastest.
 
lockii said:
This is one of the stupidest debates ever.
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Wario64 said:
Controllers for FPS suck, period
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Yup. I simply can not believe people still talk about it, as if it's just a preference. There is a physical limitation using an analog stick in FPS that doesn't exist with a mouse. It's just that simple.

I would bet money that people who advocate gamepads over M+K have never played with M+K. If they say they've used M+K and are competent at it but still prefer gamepads, they're flat out lying.

captainbiotch said:
If you had two people of equal fps capability and gave a different one to each the keyboard + mouse player would own the controller player EVERY SINGLE TIME. Or say you gave them each a month to practice their respective control devices. The keyboard and mouse player would own the controller player EVERY SINGLE TIME. Mouse aiming is much more precise any way you toss it, and fps's boil down to hitting targets the fastest.
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Agreed. I said this the last time this dumb ass debate popped up and I'll say it again. Autoaiming in console FPS has absolutely hypnotized console gamers into thinking they're the shit with the dual analog stick setup. It just ain't so. Turn off autoaim and put a skilled mouse/keyboard player versus a skilled gamepad player and the gamepad player will lose every single time.
 
I remember people talking shit about how much better the kbm was than the controller... so I wanted to play them. Load up Quake 3 DC (*perfect* game to test the theory on)

After arranging the game the most asskicking took place. KBM users... owned. My hands/wrists... owned.
 
Yeah, the mouse aiming makes sense, but the WASD crap doesn't So what if you are only using your thumb with an analog stick? My thumb is more dexterous than all of the fingers used for WASD combined. The thumb is more agile, quick and precise than anything you get from slanted WASD keyboard use.

PS: I know this is a big "GASP"er, but people will do best with what they are use to. Give a PC fan a controller and they will struggle, give someone who's played FPS on a controller their whole life and they won't do as well on a PC. It's more about what you are used to than which is "better".
 
john2kx said:
i like using the mouse for aiming and looking, but i hate using the keyboard for moving.
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i completely agree! having to play Half-Life 2 with the keyboard sucked so much ass, it left me having to "bump-bump-bump" the WASD keys to nudge myself just a little bit forward. i could not believe how much i hated this after becoming used to the xbox's godly analog sticks for movement.

what i could never understand is how some gamer couldn't get used to playing with the xbox's controller for a FPS. i mean, if you don't have the ability to do this, you basically aren't very talented, and i would reserve calling yourself an expert gamer, because a good gamer should be able to easily adapt to something like that. granted, it may not be the best, but it works really well and to not play a game because of it is just complete garbage of an excuse.
 
We keep praising mouse + keyboard for FPS because it is better than any other control standard for FPS.

That about sums it up!
 
etiolate said:
PS: I know this is a big "GASP"er, but people will do best with what they are use to. Give a PC fan a controller and they will struggle, give someone who's played FPS on a controller their whole life and they won't do as well on a PC. It's more about what you are used to than which is "better".
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The thing that you don't take into account is that the person who started on consoles and moved to PCs will actually get "better" with the kb + mouse over time. I know this is true because I've seen it. The mouse is far and away the best analog input you can find. Give it analog keys and it's perfect. The controller is a much more versatile in terms of being able to sit on your couch and play with (something you can't do with a kb + mouse), but in a "serious" competitive environment (I know, competitive gaming is for losers) a controller would severely hamper you.
 
^^ yeah i agree. i would love to see a keyboard come out with built in analog WASD keys, then it would be perfect.
 
So what if you are only using your thumb with an analog stick? My thumb is more dexterous than all of the fingers used for WASD combined. The thumb is more agile, quick and precise than anything you get from slanted WASD keyboard use.
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And what about when you're flying through the air and need to toggle to a specific weapon instantly to land a rail shot? Good luck.

On top of that, I'd wager that a given finger could press "d" faster than a thumb could move accross the stick.
 
If they say they've used M+K and are competent at it but still prefer gamepads, they're flat out lying.
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Please.God forbid they just don't like them!

Get on Halo 2 anytime and I'll show you how good a controller can be :P
 
Ramirez said:
Please.God forbid they just don't like them!

Get on Halo 2 anytime and I'll show you how good a controller can be :P
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i second that. I play Counter-Strike and used to play in a bunch of clans for Quake3/RocketArena3 back in the day. Been using KB+M since they were first implemented in games... Controllers own KB+M.

Want to test that? I'll be up for a CS game on boxing day... followed by a game of Halo 2 afterwards.
 
DopeyFish said:
I remember people talking shit about how much better the kbm was than the controller... so I wanted to play them. Load up Quake 3 DC (*perfect* game to test the theory on)

After arranging the game the most asskicking took place. KBM users... owned. My hands/wrists... owned.
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I could kick the ass of 90% of counter-strike players with a joypad, but that 10 percent of skilled mouse users would cream me hard no matter what I did. But I'm happy for you and your own4g3 of keyboard mouse users.
 
Ramirez said:
Please.God forbid they just don't like them!

Get on Halo 2 anytime and I'll show you how good a controller can be :P
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But for this test to be accurate someone would also need to be using a keyboard+mouse.

Someone who is great at keyboard and mouse will always be better than someone who is great at controller when we're talking about FPS.

If you don't believe it, I dare you to go on UT2k4 with a controller. Oh how I dare you! You'd be raped so quickly that you could almost consider it a crime. Almost.
 
Amir0x said:
But for this test to be accurate someone would also need to be using a keyboard+mouse.

Someone who is great at keyboard and mouse will always be better than someone who is great at controller when we're talking about FPS.

If you don't believe it, I dare you to go on UT2k4 with a controller. Oh how I dare you! You'd be raped so quickly that you could almost consider it a crime. Almost.
Click to expand...

If you remember when i had UT 2K4 and i was tearing shit up i'm not sure if you were playing the few times i did... but i was playing with an Xbox controller modded on PC. I think I forgot to mention that :P
 
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