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[Amir0x]

If you remember when i had UT 2K4 and i was tearing shit up i'm not sure if you were playing the few times i did... but i was playing with an Xbox controller modded on PC. I think I forgot to mention that

Were you playing against great keyboard+mouse users?

Because it's not competition. That's one of the reasons people who participate in competitions for FPS using keyboard+mouse. If you're great at keyboard+mouse it's absolutely no competition. It's not even debatable.

It's fine to say you don't prefer keyboard+mouse or that it's not comfortable for you. But for FPS, there's nothing that can remotely compete with K+M.

 

[pestul]

I would wager my life that the best keyboard/mouse fps player in the world.. is at least 2x as good as anyone with a controller. Frankly, it doesn't really have much to do with skill...

 

[Yusaku]

...mouse + keyboard is THE way to play FPSs.

.

 

[Amir0x]

I would wager my life that the best keyboard/mouse fps player in the world.. is at least 2x as good as anyone with a controller. Frankly, it doesn't really have much to do with skill...

I would wager my house, my car and my mother that this statement is true.

 

[shuri]

i second that. I play Counter-Strike and used to play in a bunch of clans for Quake3/RocketArena3 back in the day. Been using KB+M since they were first implemented in games... Controllers own KB+M.

Want to test that? I'll be up for a CS game on boxing day... followed by a game of Halo 2 afterwards.

Halo 2 autoaims for you. This argument is now over.

 

[Tellaerin]

If you don't believe it, I dare you to go on UT2k4 with a controller. Oh how I dare you! You'd be raped so quickly that you could almost consider it a crime. Almost.

I play UT2k4 with a MS Sidewinder gamepad in my left hand (move/strafe/jump) and a three-button mouse (aim/fire/crouch/weapon switch) in my right. It's not everyone's cup of tea, no, but I personally prefer it to WASD--I can play using a keyboard, but it just doesn't feel as good to me as a gamepad does.

Hopefully, someone'll release a next-gen controller with a d-pad/stick for movement and a trackball for aiming. Not only would I buy one for my PC in a heartbeat, but it'd be ideal for console FPS's.

 

[The Shadow]

I would wager my life that the best keyboard/mouse fps player in the world.. is at least 2x as good as anyone with a controller. Frankly, it doesn't really have much to do with skill...

I would make the same wager and I would win. Easy money.

I'm not sure if people are just slow or what. This isn't about preference, it's a physical limitation of the controller. You can prefer a joystick but that doesn't make it a better controller for FPS games. A skilled mouse player will beat an equally skilled gamepad player.

Like you said, it's not even about skill. It's a limitation of the controller plain and simple.

Halo 2 autoaims for you. This argument is now over.

Like I said, autoaim has absolutely hypnotized people into thinking they're l33t on the joypad. Halo is one of those games that has pretty blatant autoaiming. It's so obvious that the crosshairs will often "lock on" to what you need to shoot at and it literally "steers" the screen so that what you're aiming at is always centered.

Hopefully, someone'll release a next-gen controller with a d-pad/stick for movement and a trackball for aiming. Not only would I buy one for my PC in a heartbeat, but it'd be ideal for console FPS's.

There's nothing that really prevents you from doing that now. Just use the trackball for aiming and a gamepad for the movement. You'd sacrifice some quick buttons moving away from a keyboard but that can be compensated for with a trackball that has lots of buttons.

 

[Amir0x]

I play UT2k4 with a MS Sidewinder gamepad in my left hand (move/strafe/jump) and a three-button mouse (aim/fire/crouch/weapon switch) in my right. It's not everyone's cup of tea, no, but I personally prefer it to WASD--I can play using a keyboard, but it just doesn't feel as good to me as a gamepad does.

This I can understand. Not everyone will enjoy the feel of the Keyboard+Mouse. That's perfectly acceptable. That's all preferential. But I think the main point in this thread is that regardless of the "feel" you can become way better on mouse+keyboard for FPS than you ever can for controller. And that much is, I believe, very true.

Hopefully, someone'll release a next-gen controller with a d-pad/stick for movement and a trackball for aiming. Not only would I buy one for my PC in a heartbeat, but it'd be ideal for console FPS's.

Maybe. Maybe not. But in games with lots of weapons and such I prefer keyboard still. I like to be able to quickly press "1" or "4" or "6" for any specific weapon that I mapped. So while a controller person is pressing D-Pad left or right to methodically select one of their weapons I'd already have the perfect weapon available for any given moment.

But that's just me. A clever developer could probably work around such a problem too.

 

[shpankey]

i never will understand this. in my mind, a steering wheel is a helluva lot better than a controller for playing racing games, its more accurate and allows a user to become a better driver. having said that, this doesn't stop me or millions of people from playing racing games with a gamepad with an analog stick.

its the same with a kb/mouse vs controller, sure one is better than the other, but if you let it keep you from playing awesome games then you just fucking suck.

this analogy is the same. when i am playing a racing game on my couch, i don't want to hassle with having to setup and find a place to mount a racing wheel (when i race a serious simulation on my PC i then use my Logitech Force Feedback wheel - but thats my hardcore side, i dont always want to be hardcore). i just want to kick back and race with the controller. i can kick ass with it. am i as good as i am with a wheel? hell fucking no but i don't give a shit. i just want to throw the damn game in real quick, race for awhile and not worry.

same thing with a FPS, i don't want to hassle with having to get the kb/mouse adapter out and find a place to put it. i may be better with it but i am good enough with a controller.

if you deprive yourself from playing a game like Metroid Prime or Halo or TimeSplitters or Mech Assault just because you can't adapt to a controller, well, then that's on you and nothing else.

yes a mouse is absolutely better than an analog stick, just like a wheel is better than an analog stick, but those facts don't get in my way of having a ton of fun.

 

[Teknopathetic]

Dopey: Too bad you never beat me in UT2K4

 

[DopeyFish]

Dopey: Too bad you never beat me in UT2K4

i sure owned in assault

 

[Amir0x]

if you deprive yourself from playing a game like Metroid Prime or Halo or TimeSplitters or Mech Assault just because you can't adapt to a controller, well, then that's on you and nothing else.

yes a mouse is absolutely better than an analog stick, just like a wheel is better than an analog stick, but those facts don't get in my way of having a ton of fun.

this entire statement is worthless because nobody here claimed they avoided certain games if they couldn't have a mouse/keyboard. At least I didn't claim that.

And Metroid Prime is one of my most favorite games ever, so you can understand that it hardly gets in the way of my "fun." I just take keyboard+mouse over the controller whenever I can. Because keyboard+mouse is superior.

 

[luxsol]

Yeah, the mouse aiming makes sense, but the WASD crap doesn't So what if you are only using your thumb with an analog stick? My thumb is more dexterous than all of the fingers used for WASD combined. The thumb is more agile, quick and precise than anything you get from slanted WASD keyboard use.

PS: I know this is a big "GASP"er, but people will do best with what they are use to. Give a PC fan a controller and they will struggle, give someone who's played FPS on a controller their whole life and they won't do as well on a PC. It's more about what you are used to than which is "better".

As I've said on other threads about KB/Mouse Vs controller: I refuse to adapt. I will always whine and complain about how controllers suck for FPS. I do struggle with a controller (in FPS), but by no means do I suck. If challenged or coerced into playing I will use what's available. I've played many FPS on console against friends using controllers. I'm not the best, but I'm always near the top.

WASD is crap, which is why i prefer QWED. The main keys for moving around are all lined up horizontally, which makes them easier to hit (especially for me, considering I've been playing the piano close to 20 years). My fingers are much faster for striking the keys than my thumbs. Thumbs are good for manipulating controllers, but not that well at hitting things. It has a wider range of motion, but the fingers are faster at going down. Also, hitting the key to turn around will result in a faster move than using your thumb to maniulate a stick to do the same (the stick also has more distance to travel than a key).

 

[The Shadow]

its the same with a kb/mouse vs controller, sure one is better than the other, but if you let it keep you from playing awesome games then you just fucking suck.

You seem a bit confused. Did you click on the wrong thread or something? Gamepads are inferior to a mouse when it comes to an FPS. When given no other option gamepads are fine, just like a gamepad is ok when there is no wheel.

 

[shpankey]

this entire statement is worthless because nobody here claimed they avoided certain games if they couldn't have a mouse/keyboard. At least I didn't claim that.

And Metroid Prime is one of my most favorite games ever, so you can understand that it hardly gets in the way of my "fun." I just take keyboard+mouse over the controller whenever I can. Because keyboard+mouse is superior.

then what's the problem? of course it's better. just like a wheel is better than an analog stick when racing a game, yet i don't see these dumbass threads pop'in up every other week and this dumbass debate taking place about wheel's being better than gamepads.

what exactly is anyone trying to prove here? all i see is the same old arguments over and over and over. all you guys are doing is stating the fucking obvious. well DUHHHH

 

[Teknopathetic]

"i sure owned in assault "

Where's pics of this? Because the only people I remember being close to me (or surpassing me) would be Jinx, JasonA, Rooter, Biff or Pixelated.

 

[Fantasmo]

Christ, they all "suck" in realistic terms.

Who the fuck strafes in real life as much as they do in games? Yea, me and the rest of the FBI guys always run sideways down halls to dodge enemy fire.

Diving out of the way is for pussies!

Yea, I always run backwards from group of mercenaries with machine guns, while holding a rocket launcher on my shoulder and reloading it, then I precision aim that sucker into his noggin without a scope. Yea. Realistic moving. Yea.

 

[shpankey]

You seem a bit confused. Did you click on the wrong thread or something? Gamepads are inferior to a mouse when it comes to an FPS. When given no other option gamepads are fine, just like a gamepad is ok when there is no wheel.

i got the right thread, in fact i appear to be one of the few. the jist of his post was that an analog stick is better than a keyboard for movement, yet some people turned it into this same old bullshit whinebag argument about kb/mouse over controller. He doesn't seem to deny the mouse is better, just the keyboard with its digital movement and i agree.

 

[The Shadow]

i got the right thread, in fact i appear to be one of the few. the jist of his post was that an analog stick was better than a keyboard for mevement, yet some people turned it into this same old bullshit whinebag argument about which is better. he doesn't seem to deny the mouse is better, just the keyboard with its digital movement and i agree.

There are merits to using the keyboard which he ignored and were addressed in later posts such as the enormous amount of keys you can assign to whatever function you want. That's something you can't do with an analog stick.

Analog motion isn't so important when you're missing out on quick access to zoom, reload, drop weapon, specific weapon keys, change ammo, kneel, prone, etc, etc.

 

[LAMBO]

It's just big xbox and Halo fans versus the world here.

When the mouse/kb is essential for consoles this debate will die.

 

[Fantasmo]

Hey, off topic, but who plays UT2004 here?

I'm DYING DYING DYING for a few great players to teamup with in some onslaught action. Or maybe some of you can lead the way in a fun assault or something. Love that game, can't find enough good players/servers on the east coast!!

 

[G4life98]

"mouse look" is great, but keyboard movement is the most unintuitive thing ever and is the reason i bought a gamepad for my pc.

 

[Cubsfan23]

Why does this "debate" always come up? Now, a controller setup isn't keeping me from being addicted to Halo 2, but you have to have some shitty eye-hand coordination to prefer a controller over a mouse and a keyboard. That's just fact.

 

[LAMBO]

I might have to start playing UT, I've heard too many people here praising it. I'd rather get Tribes Vengence though, only because of how much i loved the original TRIBES.

 

[luxsol]

It's just big xbox and Halo fans versus the world here.

When the mouse/kb is essential for consoles this debate will die.

It is essential, just look at all those PC FPS they have on their console!
I seriously hope that the Smartjoy Frag adapter becomes popular so that this argument becomes moot as every gamer who plays Xbox FPS either buys one to compete or stop playing because of all the "cheaters." =P

 

[The Shadow]

It is essential, just look at all those PC FPS they have on their console!
I seriously hope that the Smartjoy Frag adapter becomes popular so that this argument becomes moot as every gamer who plays Xbox FPS either buys one to compete or stop playing because of all the "cheaters." =P

Agreed. Why would people even talk about how the Smartjoy Frag adapter is "cheating" if it wasn't a superior method of control compared to a gamepad?

The mind continues to boggle...

 

[michael000]

Prefer KB + mouse myself, it's become second nature to me. No matter how much i try i can't get used to analog joysticks it feels too restricting.

 

[Kanbee-san]

M+K users are just little girls with training wheels.

Be a man, use a controller :lol

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

controllers are for poor people with only xboxs, who cant play the greatest fps on their shitty pcs


WEEEEEEEEEEEE!

 

[luxsol]

M+K users are just little girls with training wheels.

Be a man, use a controller :lol

This would imply that gamers could become better without the kb/m. I'm sure there are a couple of people on this board who would give good money to see someone use and beat all other players in a serious FPS tournament using a controller. =P

 

[Kanbee-san]

controllers are for poor people with only xboxs, who cant play the greatest fps on their shitty pcs


WEEEEEEEEEEEE!

:lol You took the bait hook, line and sinker !

Can we be friends ?

 

[Teknopathetic]

"This would imply that gamers could become better without the kb/m. I'm sure there are a couple of people on this board who would give good money to see someone use and beat all other players in a serious FPS tournament using a controller. =P"

Ding ding.

 

[Dilbert]

This is going to explode into the next Leguna-style thread...I can just feel it.

I'm an avid keyboard + mouse player, and I hate the feel and inaccuracy of dual analog sticks to the point that I DO avoid console FPS games at all cost. I didn't play Halo until it came out on PC, and the same will be true for Halo 2. I would hope that the aiming accuracy would be beyond discussion at this point, but I also think that keyboard control isn't a negative for most games. When you're deathmatching, when exactly would you ever choose to walk? Even running isn't usually enough -- it's all about dodging, dodge-jumping, double-jumping, and misdirection to stay alive. If you're stuck in a platforming section in a FPS game then MAYBE analog sticks might be nice...but those aren't the games I usually play.

What I REALLY want to hear about are the guys who play with keyboard plus some other kind of peripheral on the PC. I have a good friend who uses a trackball (and is a wickedly good FPS player), and I've experimented with using a Wacom pad instead of a mouse, to poor results.

DopeyFish, I don't remember specifically playing against you, but I DO remember playing Tre', and if he says he kicked your ass, he's probably right. He's a skilled player.

As for anyone else looking for a UT2k4 game, I will try to remember to leave Xfire running (jinx90277) when I play...usually DM, though I'm trying to experiment with Onslaught too.

 

[Teknopathetic]

We should definitely start playing UT2K4 again. Some more Jailbreak or something. Best damned budget game of the year.

 

[XS+]

People speak as if mouse + keyboard is THE way to play FPSs. I think that is totally wrong.

I can understand that the mouse is more natural than an analog stick for aiming, but I don't understand why the keyboard gets thrown into the mix as well. Keyboard is a device made for text input, not playing games. It is not a good device to control first person movement. An analog stick is MUCH better for movement, since it allows you true 360 degrees of movement along with allowing you to control the speed of the movement in a more natural way. Analog triggers allow you to control the rate of fire (on the xbox controller anyway) of automatic weapons in a natural way also.

There's no way that a keyboard can be the best way of controlling a FPS. I think a control scheme combining the benefits of mouse aiming + fully analog aiming + analog firing would be the best, however there's no such controller yet.

This doesn't make any sense. How does an analog controller afford movement that isn't achievable with a mouse? Besides moving forward, backwards and side to side, what other purpose does the keyboard serve? The fact of the matter is, movement and aim are far more accurate with the keyboard/mouse tandem than any joystick configuration. Period.

 

[Red Dolphin]

This arguement is retarded as mentioned. This comparison is like saying that playing Mario 64 DS on a D-Pad is better then playing Mario 64 on an analogue stick. Sure you can adapt and play quite well with the D-Pad once you get used to it but it is CLEARLY inferior to the analogue stick.

As someone that spent many many years playing Goldeneye and Perfect Dark and becoming very experienced with using a controller for FPSs, it only took me a few hours to become acustomed to using a mouse and keyboard for playing Half Life 1 (and then 2 recently) and realising how much better the controls are. Infact, it's made the limitations of a controller stand out far more while I try and play through Halo.

 

[M3wThr33]

An analog stick does not work the same as a mouse. A mouse has a much wider range of accuracy and movement. You let go of the stick, it flicks back and you begin again to re-aim or adjust. A mouse requires simple finitie movements only affected by your own precision and friction of the mouse on the pad. An analog stick has an added resitence that is something additional to fight against.
I enjoy both. I have TimeSplitters 1 and 2, Metroid Prime and Red Faction II. I still much prefer a mouse to a damn flick stick.
The existence of Quake 3 DC should prove my point. KaM beat Ctrl religiously. I still don't comprehend analog's preference. It's like people who still use the arrow keys on a keyboard instead of WASD. You're sticking with old habits, not refining them.

 

[Yusaku]

Hey, off topic, but who plays UT2004 here?

I'm DYING DYING DYING for a few great players to teamup with in some onslaught action. Or maybe some of you can lead the way in a fun assault or something. Love that game, can't find enough good players/servers on the east coast!!

There's a fair number of UT2k4 players on GAF. I just played some ONS last night.

To be on topic, the gamepad issue largely depends on the gamepad and game. I CANNOT play FPS games on the PS2. No how, no way, not ever. The Controller S has just the right amount of resistance for a FPS, and of course Halo/2 is perfectly tuned to work with the gamepad. I only get annoyed when I need to turn around quickly.