Xbox 2 patent information found?

D-Back

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Is this old? Cut and paste the whole url

Someone just posted this on the xbox.com forums so take it with a grain of salt. Hell it could even be the xbox 1 patent. Still can't figure out if the site is actually the legit us patent office. Theres also some images for the patent but I can't get them to display.

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph...t2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.htm l&r=11&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=gpu&OS=gpu&RS=gpu

or you can use this tiny url: http://tinyurl.com/6uyp3

Its a huge document with a ton of technical info, but The key points that I saw were:

3 cpu's confirmed (from my understanding)
Built in harddrive confirmed
Memory units still inserted into the controllers
 
No don't wait, fucking hell, I've had enough of this gen's graphics. Maybe it'd be too early if all the consoles had come out when the Xbox did, and ideally it'd be PS3 we're seeing in 2005 instead, but dammit it will have been over 5 1/2 years since the PS2 launched by the time the Xenon is out. Even longer since we first started seeing this gen's graphics. And if you thow the DC in there too, which is debateable, it's been far too long.

So bring on the next-gen!
 
Mama Smurf said:
No don't wait, fucking hell, I've had enough of this gen's graphics. Maybe it'd be too early if all the consoles had come out when the Xbox did, and ideally it'd be PS3 we're seeing in 2005 instead, but dammit it will have been over 5 1/2 years since the PS2 launched by the time the Xenon is out. Even longer since we first started seeing this gen's graphics. And if you thow the DC in there too, which is debateable, it's been far too long.

So bring on the next-gen!


fuck graphics its all about the games! Look at Riddick for example, I think the game looks better than Half Life 2, Doom 3 and Far Cry. Those are PC gems!

GT4 1080i on PS2, MGS3 last few boss fights and general scenery. RE4 and Zelda on GC.

Consoles right now still have some juice left!
 
If this is true, which I don't want to speculate, we're going to need one BIG technophile to translate all this shiz. That's a lot of technobabble.
 
Doom_Bringer said:
fuck graphics its all about the games! Look at Riddick for example, I think the game looks better than Half Life 2, Doom 3 and Far Cry. Those are PC gems!

GT4 1080i on PS2, MGS3 last few boss fights and general scenery. RE4 and Zelda on GC.

Consoles right now still have some juice left!


Oh, I definately agree...I think it would want this gen to last as long as humanly possible because IMO the current crop of consoles aren't finished yet. What I'm mainly looking forward to next gen is AI and Physics improvements accross the board
 
Amir0x said:
If this is true, which I don't want to speculate, we're going to need one BIG technophile to translate all this shiz. That's a lot of technobabble.

Watchoo talking bout?

[0099] The GPU module 1112 periodically informs the CPU 1102 of the current value of the tail pointer 1114 by transferring the tail pointer to the L2 cache 1110. This operation is indicated in FIG. 11 by path 1116. The storage of the tail pointer in the L2 cache 1110 causes the corresponding tail pointer location in the L1 cache 1108 to be marked as invalid. The invalidation of the L1 location occurs using the cache coherency functionality that keeps the L1 data coherent with modifications made to the same physical address L2 locations. A subsequent CPU 1102 load of the tail pointer location will be responded to by retrieving the most current version of the tail pointer, e.g., as stored in the L2 cache 1110. In an alternative implementation, the GPU module 1112 can forward the tail pointer directly to some other cacheable storage associated with the CPU 1102 or GPU 1112, with the lower read latency solution preferred. By marked contrast, in typical GPU configurations, the GPU module 1112 interacts with system memory, which requires a much higher latency to reload once the tail pointer location in the CPU L2 1110 is invalidated. The use of interrupts to handle this task can be even more problematic in terms of latency issues.
It's as clear as day!
 
Doom_Bringer said:
fuck graphics its all about the games! Look at Riddick for example, I think the game looks better than Half Life 2, Doom 3 and Far Cry. Those are PC gems!

GT4 1080i on PS2, MGS3 last few boss fights and general senery. RE4 and Zelda on GC.

Consoles right now still have some juice left!

Who cares? I'm sure if N64 games were still in development we'd still be getting better and better graphics, but I'm glad they're not.

I'm no graphic whore, but I just want to move on to the next level. It's like pizza. I love pizza, it's quite possibly my favourite food, but I can't eat it all the time. If I do, I get bored of it. Now this doesn't mean that pizza isn't good, it doesn't mean I don't liek it anymore. I've just had too much of it, and want something else.
 
What does this mean, exactly?

[0106] C. Exemplary Application to a Gaming Environment

[0107] FIG. 13 shows an exemplary gaming system 1300 that can be used to implement the above-described parallel architecture and techniques. It includes a game console 1302 and up to four controllers, as represented by controllers 1304(1) and 1304(2). The game console 1302 is equipped with an internal hard disk drive and a portable media drive 1306. The portable media drive 1306 supports various forms of portable storage media as represented by optical storage disc 1308. Examples of suitable portable storage media include DVD, CD-ROM, game discs, game cartridges, and so forth.

It doesn't look like it's actual confirmation of an internal HDD, just a description of an an "exemplary gaming system".
 
Mama Smurf said:
Who cares? I'm sure if N64 games were still in development we'd still be getting better and better graphics, but I'm glad they're not.

I'm no graphic whore, but I just want to move on to the next level. It's like pizza. I love pizza, it's quite possibly my favourite food, but I can't eat it all the time. If I do, I get bored of it. Now this doesn't mean that pizza isn't good, it doesn't mean I don't liek it anymore. I've just had too much of it, and want something else.

Some people want their money's worth...not everybody gets every console on launch day. Besides it's much better when developers put their year's of experience on a particular console to use and squeeze out more power and refinement out the current machines. If anything, it's practice for next gen development. What's the point of making top of the line machines only to shitcan them before their time?
 
You know full well MS are just trying to get a jump start on Sony. I don't see the relevance of the people who buy consoles late in the system's life point either, they can still buy all those games released previously you know?

Besides it's much better when developers put their year's of experience on a particular console to use and squeeze out more power and refinement out the current machines.

Why is it much better? Honestly, I don't see it. It's great when developers squeeze as much power out of a console as possible, but what the fuck makes moving onto the next gen a worst choice?

If anything, it's practice for next gen development.

...what?
 
D-Back said:
Its a huge document with a ton of technical info, but The key points that I saw were:

3 cpu's confirmed (from my understanding)
Built in harddrive confirmed
Memory units still inserted into the controllers
A patent never confirms final design of an actual product.
 
Mama Smurf said:
You know full well MS are just trying to get a jump start on Sony. I don't see the relevance of the people who buy consoles late in the system's life point either, they can still buy all those games released previously you know?



Why is it much better? Honestly, I don't see it. It's great when developers squeeze as much power out of a console as possible, but what the fuck makes moving onto the next gen a worst choice?



...what?

Um, you know, that whole "doing more with less" thing, learning how to optimize because your back is up against a wall due to "old" hardware. If you can do amazing things with limited resources, doesn't it stand to reason that you can do that much more when you have a much more powerful machine? Power doesn't automatically equal great looking games. Learning new tricks and better techniques and gaining experience this gen would carry over to next gen.

Xenon in '05, PS3 and Revolution in '06....sounds just fine to me. Sure PS3 might be coming a little late, but it's not dead...there's still some life, and if what's true about Kaz from Polyphony digital being a senior VP at SCEI and is sharing techonology with other developers, we just might see more games in '05 supporting 1080i or otherwise running the PS2 hardware to the max. Besides, Devs also need time to make some decent launch and post-launch games for the next gen.
 
OmniGamer said:
Um, you know, that whole "doing more with less" thing, learning how to optimize because your back is up against a wall due to "old" hardware. If you can do amazing things with limited resources, doesn't it stand to reason that you can do that much more when you have a much more powerful machine? Power doesn't automatically equal great looking games. Learning new tricks and better techniques and gaining experience this gen would carry over to next gen.

You actually think spending even more time on the gen will make your next-gen games better than working with next-gen hardware as soon as possible? Oh I suppose you could learn a few little tricks, though I don't know how handy they'd be anyway unless the next gen architecture is extremely similar to this gen.

I can just see it:

"Hey guys, we've been working on the Xbox for a year into the Xenon's life and we get some awesome looking graphics out of it! That means we'll pull out the best graphics on the Xenon too!"

"Ermm...no. We've already got our first game out and moving onto the second now, you actually think you'll be able to pull of more with this machine then we with our experince on it?"

Xenon in '05, PS3 and Revolution in '06....sounds just fine to me. Sure PS3 might be coming a little late, but it's not dead...there's still some life, and if what's true about Kaz from Polyphony digital being a senior VP at SCEI and is sharing techonology with other developers, we just might see more games in '05 supporting 1080i or otherwise running the PS2 hardware to the max. Besides, Devs also need time to make some decent launch and post-launch games for the next gen.

Well, it sounds fine to me too...are you just arguing me for the sake of argument then?
 
Oh hell yes bring on the next gen. I would take Xbox 2 right now if I could. It isn't just about graphics either. It is the ability of more powerful hardware which will also be able to expand gameplay at a high framerate.
 
"Can PS3 be saved?"

"I see the Xbox spreading...soon nothing will stand in it's way."

smiths.jpg
 
Mama Smurf said:
I seem to recall Smith lost...

Smith is part of the system of control. Smith never lost. He is the creation of the oracle to balance the system. So in fact... Smith won :P
 
Mama Smurf said:
I seem to recall Smith lost...

But like... so did Neo, cause
he died
! So what does that mean!?

After the dust settles, it is Nintendo's Revolution that stands tall?
 
Is Revolution that annoying little girl?

Smith is part of the system of control. Smith never lost. He is the creation of the oracle to balance the system. So in fact... Smith won :P

So...so...Xbox and PS3 will wipe each other out and we'll live in a utopian society where all games can be played by anyone? Or not played, if they so choose.

Man, The Matrix sequels are coming alive!
 
The most interesting stuff in the patent is the procedural geometry/higher-order-surface tesselation stuff (well, and some of the stuff about the memory architecture, but that's harder to make sound cool if you don't already understand it). Apparently it's designed so the one or more of the CPU cores reads in a small amount of data, and generates a large number of vertices from it (tesselating some form of HOS representation, or one of the examples it talks about is having a set of data representing a tree, and any wind forces acting on it, and using that to procedurally generate all the leaves in the appropriate way, etc). The vertices are streamed to the GPU via a set of FIFO (first-in-first-out) buffers in a locked portion of the (shared) L2 cache. There's also stuff like talk of additional cpu instructions to handle vertex compression formats, possibly integrated into load/store instructions, and special instructions for doing dot-products, without having to pack/unpack between AOS and SOA forms (array of structs/struct of arrays), and things like optimised streaming read/writes, with all sorts of cool prefetching and shit, and the ability to optionally skip the L1/L2 cache, etc.
 
Azih said:
Watchoo talking bout?
[0099] The GPU module 1112 periodically informs the CPU 1102 of the current value of the tail pointer 1114 by transferring the tail pointer to the L2 cache 1110. This operation is indicated in FIG. 11 by path 1116. The storage of the tail pointer in the L2 cache 1110 causes the corresponding tail pointer location in the L1 cache 1108 to be marked as invalid. The invalidation of the L1 location occurs using the cache coherency functionality that keeps the L1 data coherent with modifications made to the same physical address L2 locations. A subsequent CPU 1102 load of the tail pointer location will be responded to by retrieving the most current version of the tail pointer, e.g., as stored in the L2 cache 1110. In an alternative implementation, the GPU module 1112 can forward the tail pointer directly to some other cacheable storage associated with the CPU 1102 or GPU 1112, with the lower read latency solution preferred. By marked contrast, in typical GPU configurations, the GPU module 1112 interacts with system memory, which requires a much higher latency to reload once the tail pointer location in the CPU L2 1110 is invalidated. The use of interrupts to handle this task can be even more problematic in terms of latency issues.
It's as clear as day!

Not as day, but it's pretty clear if you've studied this stuff ;) And it definitely appears to be from Xenon from other info (GPU having direct access to cache)
 
Mama Smurf said:
Is Revolution that annoying little girl?

The Merovingian (sp) faction!

Mama Smurf said:
So...so...Xbox and PS3 will wipe each other out and we'll live in a utopian society where all games can be played by anyone? Or not played, if they so choose.

Man, The Matrix sequels are coming alive!

More like the bad completely out of place and wrong in every way Matrix references are coming alive!

But we'll know who really wins in MATRIX ONLINE! Coming to PCs near you in 2005. The Matrix has you.
 
Look at the vain attmepts to dsicuss the Xenon on a Matrix topic! Haha...what? Oh.

In that case, on topic. Do you guys think the rumour than Xenon won't be at CES in any form in favour of GDC in March is true now? I mean, CES is in like 6 days, surely we'd have heard things.

...unless this topic is one of those things.
 
Xbox 2 will not be at CES. GDC? possible. I'm thinking they're just going to blow the doors open at E3 now.
 
Oh don't say that, I don't wanna wait that long. I'm not expecting a full blowout at GDC, but I hope we get some things. Specs, the system's casing, maybe a few tech demos...something.
 
Mama Smurf said:
Oh don't say that, I don't wanna wait that long. I'm not expecting a full blowout at GDC, but I hope we get some things. Specs, the system's casing, maybe a few tech demos...something.

I think MS might want to one up Sony and Nintendo (yet again) at E3. When Sony is showing off the PS3 and nintendo is showing off the revolution with tech demos while Xbox2 games are playable on the showfloor... It would certainly turn more heads...

Do you want to see the future... or do you want to play the future?
 
DopeyFish said:
I think MS might want to one up Sony and Nintendo (yet again) at E3. When Sony is showing off the PS3 and nintendo is showing off the revolution with tech demos while Xbox2 games are playable on the showfloor... It would certainly turn more heads...

Do you want to see the future... or do you want to play the future?

I've yet to be convinced we'll see even that much from Sony and Nintendo yet. I guess it depends how far into 2006 they intend to launch.

Even if we do get tech demos though, I'd think the best think for MS would be to show theirs sometime before E3. Based on the assumption that it'll be the least powerful system (or at least against the PS3, the one MS will be most worried about), I doubt they'll want to show inferior images at the same time as Sony's (that is, if we can even tell the difference).

So if they show it off earlier, they get that wow factor for definite, then they can use E3 for playable games to still have that one upping of Nintendo and Sony.
 
Mama Smurf said:
I've yet to be convinced we'll see even that much from Sony and Nintendo yet. I guess it depends how far into 2006 they intend to launch.

Even if we do get tech demos though, I'd think the best think for MS would be to show their's sometime before E3. Based on the assumption that it'll be the least powerful system (or at least against the PS3, the one MS will be most worried about), I doubt they'll want to show inferior images at the same time as Sony's (that is, if we can even tell the difference).

So if they show it off earlier, they get that wow factor for definite, then they can use E3 for playable games to still have that one upping of Nintendo and Sony.


Well said, thats exactly what microsoft should do.
 
Redbeard said:
It doesn't look like it's actual confirmation of an internal HDD, just a description of an an "exemplary gaming system".

True. It's quite like the "videogame system" mentioned in the Cell patents aswell. Things may not end up like that.
 
rastex said:
Not as day, but it's pretty clear if you've studied this stuff ;) And it definitely appears to be from Xenon from other info (GPU having direct access to cache)
And now it's officially confirmed they are ripping off GCN design :P
GPU accessing cache, using eDram for framebuffer, IBM CPU !!!!
icon_biggrin.gif
 
So they'll have efficient hardware design combined with decent horsepower (since MS won't skimp like Nintendo) and a really nice software dev environment? Seems to be a very sweet setup for development to me, but then I'm not a game developer. How's it look to you Faf?
 
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