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Xbox 360 and the HD-era

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As this year’s Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) draws closer, more and more details regarding Microsoft’s Xbox successor come to light.

It seems that Microsoft is making a serious push for the “HD Era” that J Allard boasted of at this year’s Game Developers Conference. Several of our sources have told us that Microsoft has outlined very strict technical requirements when showcasing Xbox 360 titles at this year’s E3.

In order to fully demonstrate the visual prowess of the new console, Xbox 360 games will not be displayed on regular TVs, which means no SDTV or EDTV sets (although the console can utilize such technology), and it is mandatory that the displays used in the E3 demonstrations are HDTV-ready and not just HDTV compatible.


You should know that many of the flat panel screens that are sold as HD capable are only “HDTV Compatible”, which means they can display HDTV signals but they resize the image to the panel’s native resolution, which sometimes is lower than the minimum HDTV spec, 720p. Full HDTV Ready displays are those TVs that have a built-in HDTV tuner (ex: ATSC tuners for over-the-air HD reception, CableCARD™ slots for cable HDTV), DVI and HDMI inputs, and a panel with a 1920x1080 native resolution, which allows the TV to display any HDTV signal without having to compress the image.

Several sources have informed us that Microsoft is demanding that companies display Xbox 360 games at E3 on equipment with a minimum resolution of 720 physical lines. We have yet to learn if Microsoft is requiring any type of specific audio capabilities during demos, such as a Dolby Digital 5.1 system.

It looks like as far as Microsoft is concerned, the “HD Era” truly has begun.
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Stupid Sweden and it's super old TV system they're just NOW changing, but not to HDTV, only to digital TV. >_< Gimme HDTV ffs!!! Oh, and the rest of Europe too, heh.
 
pilonv1 said:
Hopefully there will be consumer options for both.
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In terms of video, HDMI and DVI are the same. Having either on your display isn't going to cripple you, from a video perspective (I know for sure you can get HDMI-to-DVI cables and probably vice versa).

The news in the original post is hardly surprising anyway..I'm fairly sure all next-gen games on all next-gen consoles will be shown off on HDTVs at tradeshows (and on in-store demo units) and the like.
 
I think MS just wants to make sure that 3rd parties are showing off the system to its full capacity. They dont want shots from some shitty TV hitting the web and not looking up to par.
 
Wait... so what's the difference between HD compatible, and HD ready?

Was that saying that even if we have an HD game that runs in HD resolution, it wont be in HD on a HD tv?
 
truesayian said:
Wait... so what's the difference between HD compatible, and HD ready?

Was that saying that even if we have an HD game that runs in HD resolution, it wont be in HD on a HD tv?
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The term HD-Ready refers to sets with integrate ATSC receiver, while HD-Compatible refers to HDTV monitors. Whoever wrote that doesn't know the difference. They probably meant HDTV vs EDTV (i.e. sets that display HD signals by downscaling).
 
oK, thanks for clearing that up...


So, i have my HD compatible tv, right cables, HDMI, DVI, or component, and the game that goes in HD, it should be good...
 
Hmm I'm looking at buying a new TV for Xbox 360, and the local Best Buy put one on sale. Its a Toshiba 26HF84, which you can see here .

So I am hoping for some advice from you guys! The Toshiba TV's look good, and they are cheap. They are listed and sold as HDTV Televisions. BUT They dont support 720p, and I'm not even sure that the technically support 480p. According to Toshibas web page, all of their TV's feature a thing called "CrystalScan". It upconverts 480i/p (and I would assume 720p, since it is listed as "all video signals") to 1080i.

Do any of you have experience with this sort of thing? (Or maybe even with this TV!). What does the video quality look like? I am concerned that with all Xbox 360 games being 720p, it will look really awful if it is "upconverted" to 1080i. This TV will never be used for watching TV shows or DVD's, its only for games.

Other than that one thing the TV is exactly what I am looking for.. my space is very limted, so I cant get some 50" screen. And any LCD screen that would fit is WAY to expensive for me.
 
You've really gotta give credit to MS for trying to prove to gamers that they can be #1. E3 should be interesting.
 
Oracle Dragon said:
Hmm I'm looking at buying a new TV for Xbox 360, and the local Best Buy put one on sale. Its a Toshiba 26HF84, which you can see here .

So I am hoping for some advice from you guys! The Toshiba TV's look good, and they are cheap. They are listed and sold as HDTV Televisions. BUT They dont support 720p, and I'm not even sure that the technically support 480p. According to Toshibas web page, all of their TV's feature a thing called "CrystalScan". It upconverts 480i/p (and I would assume 720p, since it is listed as "all video signals") to 1080i.

Do any of you have experience with this sort of thing? (Or maybe even with this TV!). What does the video quality look like? I am concerned that with all Xbox 360 games being 720p, it will look really awful if it is "upconverted" to 1080i. This TV will never be used for watching TV shows or DVD's, its only for games.

Other than that one thing the TV is exactly what I am looking for.. my space is very limted, so I cant get some 50" screen. And any LCD screen that would fit is WAY to expensive for me.
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I have one of the rptv toshibas that does upconversion and I cant tell the difference for the life of me. I've stood right next to it and stared and can't tell the difference. Mine can do either 540p mode or 1080i.
 
Hmm... I was under the impression that HDTV-Ready, HDTV Monitor, and HDTV compatible were pretty much the same thing, meaning they require an external tuner. With regular HDTV being the one with the integrated ATSC tuner.
 
Since we're entering the "HD era" I hope MS will see to it that they actually package the DVI cable with the 360. I've spent way too much money on cables over the past 12 months remodeling my home theater and god help me if I have to go out and give monster cable another 100 bucks.
 
Hopefully the 360 supports 1080i, as my set does not support 720p. :( I refuse to move away from CRTs yet, though.
 
dark10x said:
Hopefully the 360 supports 1080i, as my set does not support 720p. :( I refuse to move away from CRTs yet, though.
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I think my Samsung is the same way, having 1080i but not 720p. I hope so at least, I love my TV for gaming so much I would hate to be stuck in 480p land next gen.
 
dark10x said:
Hopefully the 360 supports 1080i, as my set does not support 720p. :( I refuse to move away from CRTs yet, though.
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I am sure MS will have some way of making sure it can do 720p or 1080i, otherwise they would piss lot of Samsung owner off.
 
Some myths about HDTVs in this thread Clarified:

HD Ready is the same thing as HDTV: No, it can mean a 480p resolution TV that's capable of downscaling an HD signal to be displayed in 480p. It doesn't always mean that, so check, check, check your TV before purchasing. This is more common in low end, big plasmas.

Upconverting 720p to 1080i looks like ass: No. To most people, including videophiles, it looks the same as native. Crisp, sharp, smooth etc. And your TV does it automatically, most commonly on CRTs. It really isn't an issue for 99% of folks, even folks who care about that stuff.

I can't play 360 games on a regular TV! Of course you can. In fact, MS and developers know that most consumers worldwide will be playing in 480i, or local equivalent and they will code to suit. It's not a huge deal to code and test for basically two aspect ratios. They don't even need to worry about resolution at all, except in terms of on screen UI.

I need to buy $100 cables! I question the wisdom of spending any extra money on digital cables... analog, sure...but on that note, I hope that MS doesn't try to launch us into the HD era with just component cables! I'm happy to pay for the external AV packs like before, but I better be able to get HDMI on daycone. HDMI 4 life, yo. Component cables are a given, btw.
 
Thanks for the clarifications... the only thing I'm really worried about is having to buy a powered switch box now, I doubt my MadCatz (cats?) one will suffice for 1080i. Also hopefully the X360 will have component cables or whatever they are called, offered as an option in addition to DVI and HDMI and whatever the hell else is out there.
 
I hope they will come out with cheap (yet quality) HDMI/DVI switchboxes soon enough. When I have my Xbox 360, PS3 and Rev, I want to quickly be able to switch between the three without having to mess with unplugging and replugging wires.
 
How much better is HDMI picture vs component picture on a digital 720p-native display? Is the difference worth the high cost of an HDMI switcher? I can't imagine using HDMI for Xbox360/PS3/Revolution/DVD/digital cable...the price for a switcher (or a receiver with 5 HDMI inputs...do they even exist?) would be way too high.
 
Picture is better, since it's pure digital, and you can tell the difference. Switchers exist now:

http://www.cybergiftcenter.com/appl....asp?oid=21&sku=CG-EXTHDMI241&mpn=EXT-HDMI241


But are kinda lame and way overpriced. There are also Receivers with better HDMI switching, and since HDMI carries digital audio too (including 5.1, 7.1, DTS etc) then a receiver is actually a great way to go. From five cables to one = bliss.

And this is hardly a switcher, but it will save you from switching at the TV side, and it's only $400.

http://ww3.onecall.com/PID_22427.htm#
 
Hey Stinkles, since you seem to be the HDTV specialist in here, what do you know about the HDTV capture setups ? By this I mean true HTDV capture, not simply getting the compressed MPEG2 stream. I know this is professional stuff and requires insane hard drive speed and space, not even mentioning money, but I'm willing to put money in this if I can really get good results.
So far I've only be able to find such a setup for a decent price (about $1500 without the software and insane hard drives) :
Component -> HD-DSI converter -> HD-DSI capture card -> Avid
Do you know anything more about such stuff ?
 
Nope. Cables yes. Displays, yes. Recording, no clue. I do know that you're right about compression and speed being the limiters, but I got great results compressed or not, on my Hughes HD Tivo, and it's not hard to get the recorded data off those hard drives.
 
Stinkles said:
Nope. Cables yes. Displays, yes. Recording, no clue. I do know that you're right about compression and speed being the limiters, but I got great results compressed or not, on my Hughes HD Tivo, and it's not hard to get the recorded data off those hard drives.
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Yeah, but the point here would be to record the 720p stream out of the next gen systems. It's not trivial in the least :)
 
Kobun Heat said:
So do they think the games won't look "next-gen" enough if not displayed on HD-TVs?
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probably just want to show them off in the best possible way they can.... makes perfect sense to me.
 
Wouldn't it be sorta hypocritical if MS didn't bundle the 360 with a DVI and/or HDMI cables? I wouldn't be surprised to see composites bundled with it (and for good reason, but they can include the other cables if they are really serious about HD gaming, putting their money where their mouth is).
 
Fight for Freeform said:
Wouldn't it be sorta hypocritical if MS didn't bundle the 360 with a DVI and/or HDMI cables? I wouldn't be surprised to see composites bundled with it (and for good reason, but they can include the other cables if they are really serious about HD gaming, putting their money where their mouth is).
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Even though I'd love to see it come with an HDMI cable, the smarter choice would be component. Some HDTV's have HDMI, some have DVI, but they all have component inputs. As well as plenty of non-HDTV's.

I also read an article recently saying the picture quality of component vs. HDMI or DVI is practically imperceptible.
 
Smart move if you ask me. After spending millions of $$ and countless hours to created the best possible aesthetics in a game, it'd be a shame to display it on an analog television.
 
FYI, HDMI and DVI are NOT the same at all.

DVI does video only. HDMI does video and sound, which happens to be the latest standard.

There are DVI --> HDMI adaptors available which run at about $60 USD roughly.

VALIS said:
I also read an article recently saying the picture quality of component vs. HDMI or DVI is practically imperceptible.
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This is 100% incorrect, DVI and HDMI are pure digital signals whereas Component inputs still run off an analog signal.

Fight for Freeform said:
Wouldn't it be sorta hypocritical if MS didn't bundle the 360 with a DVI and/or HDMI cables? I wouldn't be surprised to see composites bundled with it (and for good reason, but they can include the other cables if they are really serious about HD gaming, putting their money where their mouth is).
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Microsoft's marketing team would say otherwise, there is not enough flat-tube TV pentration in American homes to justify bundling Component cables with every 360.

Plus the cost of Component cables in comparison to Composite cables actually is quite a bit higher.

Also another thing to note is that every console manufacturer makes a large chunk of their profits from accessories which are sold seperately.
 
What would make too much sense is just to put the various jacks on the back of the box.

I suppose they'd rather sell everyone different kinds of adapters, though.
 
Cold-Steel said:
Plus the cost of Composite cables in comparison to Component cables actually is quite a bit higher.
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With all due respect, how the fuck is it cheaper to make 1 AV cable than 3?

Anyone I feel all warm and fuzzy knowing MS are gonna make my HD plasma break a sweat next gen - they're the true HT console pioneers.
 
It would be beyond awesome if they put a VGA port, I prefer buying a 19crt" to an expensive HDTV in the end the image quality will be the same.
 
Fusebox said:
With all due respect, how the fuck is it cheaper to make 1 AV cable than 3?
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I mixed up the two last time. Edited for your benefit. :)

gblues said:
For video, HDMI and DVI are pin-for-pin identical. The only difference between the two is that HDMI also carries the audio signal while DVI does not. The only requirement is that the DVI device must be HDCP-enabled.

Nathan
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You just listed exactly what I said, minus the HDCP part.
 
Cold-Steel said:
This is 100% incorrect, DVI and HDMI are pure digital signals whereas Component inputs still run off an analog signal.
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I know that. So what, though? It doesn't mean the picture quality is necessarily better. In theory, yes, but not necessarily in practice. I know plenty of high end audiophiles who'd much rather use analog over digital as their interconnects between components, although that's kind of comparing apples to oranges. Regardless, the article said the difference between component and HDMI/DVI was usually imperceptible, not that it was technically "better."
 
VALIS said:
I know that. So what, though? It doesn't mean the picture quality is necessarily better. In theory, yes, but not necessarily in practice. I know plenty of high end audiophiles who'd much rather use analog over digital as their interconnects between components. Besides, the article said the difference between component and HDMI/DVI was usually imperceptible.
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Actually it does matter in practice.

Component cables which run on an analog signal are more succeptible to degradation and information loss.

DVI and HDMI do not suffer from such problems because of their native digital-to-digital conversion method.

The frequency response of component video averages out to about 13mhz whereas the frequency response of DVI/HDMI averages out past 18mhz.

In other words, if you want to push 1080 or 720 you will need cable to reach past 18mhz and that is DVI/HDMI (which run at a higher bandwidth). Component video is best at 480 peaking at 13mhz.
 
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