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[ThatOneGrunt]

Is Blizzard not safe? Doesn't World Of Warcraft just print money at this point?

 

[MayauMiao]

Then use it for yourself Microsoft! It's legit one of the best game engines on Planet Earth. Why let it go? It powers games like Indiana Jones and the Doom games.

That seems like a poor reasoning to say its the best engine. Even the Halo reboot is using Unreal which says a lot about id tech engine.

Most gamers don't see the benefit of id tech at all.

 

[UniformDeliverance]

So you're telling me the engine is customizable then. Plus......the expertise in building and managing that engine goes further than just the engine itself. That same crew could be used to help build Project Helix or whatever next operating system that Microsoft is going to be using for their gaming stuff.

No. I'm telling you that machine games had to build their own version of the engine. It's so customized that they gave it its own name: "motor" That means that they couldn't use out of box features, they had to make their own.

So engineering, support, and upkeep done in house. You effectively have two engine teams for one engine at Microsoft, when both games could have used Unreal and outsourced that work to Epic.

That increases team size. Increases cost. And delays development while teams wait for feature releases and bug fixes.

That's not good. Personally I'd love to see Microsoft have a proprietary and scalable engine they use for their games, and sadly Idtech has not been used to that capacity. As such it's not worth the incredible cost vs using an off the shelf industry standard solution.

 

[Mozza]

Those DEI hires might be quite cheap / lower salary and happy to stay even in worse conditions.

So, maybe it is the only group relatively unaffected… now think about that.

I am thinking about it and know this is not true lol...

 

[Viruz]

https://jobs.zenimax.com/jobs

 

[zaga]

Were the studios who had unionized targeted for layoffs? Maybe that also explains the delay for some of the layoffs - some unions (or country laws) were making instant layoffs hard?

Example, didn't id Software unionize pretty recently?

 

[Panajev2001a]

I am thinking about it and know this is not true lol...

You do not know, but you want it to be true.

Remember when they were going after useless managers… yeah, we saw that at I'd, managers are mostly who is left there while they fired the good engineers.

 

[Panajev2001a]

That seems like a poor reasoning to say its the best engine. Even the Halo reboot is using Unreal which says a lot about id tech engine.

Most gamers don't see the benefit of id tech at all.

They do when they actually play games built with it on consoles bs the "looks great in stills and gets stuttery and smears like crap as soon as you move". Halo has been mandated to use Unreal, but let's keep being good astroturfers / super fans trying to rationalise this into good news on behalf of MS.

 

[Mozza]

You do not know, but you want it to be true.

Remember when they were going after useless managers… yeah, we saw that at I'd, managers are mostly who is left there while they fired the good engineers.

Not in the slightest... But we all know how DEI works. I would suggest you are more desperate for this not to be true.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Not in the slightest... But we all know how DEI works. I would suggest you are more desperate for this not to be true.

You say you do but I do not think you know., but since you say you know you have receipts right?

 

[Mozza]

You say you do but I do not think you know., but since you say you know you have receipts right?

You sound a little unhinged my friend. DEI by it's very definition is promoting hiring for the wrong reasons. Not suggesting this still can't lead to the best people being hired, but there has to be an instance where you get people not as qualified.

 

[mckmas8808]

No. I'm telling you that machine games had to build their own version of the engine. It's so customized that they gave it its own name: "motor" That means that they couldn't use out of box features, they had to make their own.

So engineering, support, and upkeep done in house. You effectively have two engine teams for one engine at Microsoft, when both games could have used Unreal and outsourced that work to Epic.

That increases team size. Increases cost. And delays development while teams wait for feature releases and bug fixes.

That's not good. Personally I'd love to see Microsoft have a proprietary and scalable engine they use for their games, and sadly Idtech has not been used to that capacity. As such it's not worth the incredible cost vs using an off the shelf industry standard solution.

Everything you said here depresses me.

 

[Panajev2001a]

You sound a little unhinged my friend. DEI by it's very definition is promoting hiring for the wrong reasons. Not suggesting this still can't lead to the best people being hired, but there has to be an instance where you get people not as qualified.

It is fun when the person acting unhinged keeps poking / projecting. I am not defending DEI / discriminatory practices, I am saying to those sociopaths trying to find reasons to be super cheerful about these mass layoffs that they are likely not going to get what they wish for / what they are saying these layoffs are going to do.

I think a lot of those "hires" are not in super highly paid senior positions and are willing to compromise more than others to stay where they are so they might not be targeted by these kind of mass layoffs driven by spreadsheets. Same thing about those that thought it was about sacking low performers or useless pencil pushers (see Id, see how it turned out).

Now, you can keep having fun and also read what others write without calling them names, up to you of course.

 

[Dice]

I agree. And also I don't think it's layoffs based on merit but just based on saving money, so you always feel you can be the next one.

CEO: "Hey developer, make the best version of this game that you can. We bought you specifically because of this IP, after all."

Dev: "Alright!" [Makes the best-reviewed game the franchise has seen]

CEO: "Well these sales aren't what I expected so you're fired for my misjudgment of what can be a cultural phenomenon."

Who wants to work for that? What gamer wants to choose that platform to be their gaming home?

 

[Starbuck2907]

When you acquire 30+ studios over a decade, a restructure is bound too happen. There just too much management and overlapping positions. It causes too much expense and inefficiency. On the bright side, we often see ex-employees found their own studios and make great games and go on to success.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

Asha is reversing all the post covid bloat. As long as she begins to understand this industry at some point, and starts ensuring that all these studios are curated properly, it might actually have a chance at working long term.

 

[Mozza]

It is fun when the person acting unhinged keeps poking / projecting. I am not defending DEI / discriminatory practices, I am saying to those sociopaths trying to find reasons to be super cheerful about these mass layoffs that they are likely not going to get what they wish for / what they are saying these layoffs are going to do.

I think a lot of those "hires" are not in super highly paid senior positions and are willing to compromise more than others to stay where they are so they might not be targeted by these kind of mass layoffs driven by spreadsheets. Same thing about those that thought it was about sacking low performers or useless pencil pushers (see Id, see how it turned out).

Now, you can keep having fun and also read what others write without calling them names, up to you of course.

This is the problem when ever you enter into this tyoe of discussion, the person defending DEI or any other minority group, is never sure weather they are defending the individual group or an ideology, as these are vastly different things. Certainly Politicians and activists never differentiate between these very different positions. It's basically anyone who raises a concern or states a fact that does not falli in line with their own beliefs, must hate the group as a whole. It's basically a simple way to derail a simple debate by labeling or indicating the other person as a racist etc etc..

Back to the point, I am certain there iill be waste at all levels of the company, baiscally hire as many people as you want... Then theword from the top comes down about streamlining the operation, and you get job cuts... very simple really.

 

[Fafalada]

Its easy for us to have a blindspot for Cloud gaming as so many have dismissed it

I've been saying for a decade+ that cloud gaming won't take off until economic reality catches up, ie. Local compute stops scaling or becomes too expensive to.
What i didn't anticipate is that the cause of that happening would be completely unrelated to hw scaling, but ironically time frames i speculated on are not so different.
Indeed with economic model flipped on its head, cloud becomes a viable alternative and the longer current state persists the less appealing local devices become.
There are ramifications of this that are far worse than gaming, and its not guaranteed that local compute will remain on the wrong side of cost equation(all that AI hw will need recycling before long), so it's early to predict if one takes over or not though.

 

[Fafalada]

DEI by it's very definition is promoting hiring for the wrong reasons.

According to this forum you can't hire any "DEI" candidate by merit because qualifications are measured by sticking within "race/gender" metrics... oh wait

Anyway all that aside, "DEI" hires are IME more expensive by definition because the candidate pool is smaller and more contested. A fair few times I recall getting priced out of great candidates back when I worked for FAANG.

 

[Hadji*]

Is Blizzard not safe? Doesn't World Of Warcraft just print money at this point?

You overestimate World of Warcraft, I know friends who play that game since Vanilla/TBC, Those guys would leave their sub on even when they take few months breaks, and even they stopped playing.

 

[crackajack]

I've been saying for a decade+ that cloud gaming won't take off until economic reality catches up, ie. Local compute stops scaling or becomes too expensive to.
What i didn't anticipate is that the cause of that happening would be completely unrelated to hw scaling, but ironically time frames i speculated on are not so different.
Indeed with economic model flipped on its head, cloud becomes a viable alternative and the longer current state persists the less appealing local devices become.
There are ramifications of this that are far worse than gaming, and its not guaranteed that local compute will remain on the wrong side of cost equation(all that AI hw will need recycling before long), so it's early to predict if one takes over or not though.

Cloud gaming will need to get a lot more expensive after the hw costs have risen a lot now. Right now server centers for current services have already been built, with the costs of early gen, so crypto enhanced bad but not as terrible as right now. And those units are being used until they break down I guess. Next gen will have to be built with new realities and the prices for its subscription will need to explode equally. The economic reality won't shift in favor of cloud and the lag problems it has won't improve much anymore either.
Cloud and at home devices are not detachable from their costs. Hardly making it more attractive for gamers. Unless a provider takes a huge loss on those cloud units to push gamers towards their service and shift cost realities into pricing only after they already moved.

 

[Mozza]

According to this forum you can't hire any "DEI" candidate by merit because qualifications are measured by sticking within "race/gender" metrics... oh wait

Anyway all that aside, "DEI" hires are IME more expensive by definition because the candidate pool is smaller and more contested. A fair few times I recall getting priced out of great candidates back when I worked for FAANG.

Like I said you can still hire great people with DEI... but you also have to accept that sometimes you will not get the best candidate.

 

[Fafalada]

Like I said you can still hire great people with DEI... but you also have to accept that sometimes you will not get the best candidate.

The only way that works is if the hiring standards are actively compromised for it - something I've not seen evidence of in my time.

To be entirely clear - there are absolutely (big)companies out there that have laughably bad hiring practices, but those are broken before any metric optimizations.
Eg. if at some point you start doing the "I'll compare these X candidates and pick 'the best one'" your hiring process has already failed - it doesn't matter what metric you are comparing the candidates on.

 

[Fafalada]

Cloud and at home devices are not detachable from their costs.

No of course not - but the main point is relative comparison. Throughout recorded history, the cost curve and evolution kept local compute squarely ahead of cloud infrastructure. But if/once that progress halted - the difference starts to disappear (or even inverts) over time.
This isn't just a hardware question either - there's the point of diminishing returns on software as well - where at some point compute jumps become less and less impactful on software. And as that gap keeps shrinking - so do the cost advantages / market appetite for local compute.

But yes - you're absolutely right that if markets at large get locked in - user prices will go up, just like they continue going with Netflix and co.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

The only way that works is if the hiring standards are actively compromised for it - something I've not seen evidence of in my time.

You are blinder than the androids from Westworld that couldn't see the doors in front of them.

Jesus, man. You just need to pick any studio (ANY) , and cross-check job grades versus resumes. The amount of unqualified DEI hires in key roles is mind-boggling, literally racing studios to the ground.

 

[SneakersSO]

I get the feeling the five studios that were sold first were done so because they were the easiest to dismantle FIRST.

You're absolutely right.

I also think the remaining 1,600 number is an under-estimation.

 

[yogaflame]

MS xbox is so badly manage, and twisted DEI hiring and go woke and go broke adds to the injury.

 

[Human 2.0]

You're absolutely right.

I also think the remaining 1,600 number is an under-estimation.

Is there a sense that anyone has any idea what they're doing, like is there a plan and if so what is the plan?

What is the current atmosphere in the division? I'd be interested to know how the old guard view what's happening.

Does anyone know what Phill Spencer's thoughts are, seems to me he was basically fired.

 

[Sanepar]

I get the feeling the five studios that were sold first were done so because they were the easiest to dismantle FIRST.

She is there to sell and dismantle everything.

Final goal make Bethesda light and sell, maybe stay only with Activision and Minecraft milking cod, king and blizzard stuff.

 

[Mozza]

The only way that works is if the hiring standards are actively compromised for it - something I've not seen evidence of in my time.

To be entirely clear - there are absolutely (big)companies out there that have laughably bad hiring practices, but those are broken before any metric optimizations.
Eg. if at some point you start doing the "I'll compare these X candidates and pick 'the best one'" your hiring process has already failed - it doesn't matter what metric you are comparing the candidates

Evidence for the standards not being lowered based on your own observations... Sounds totally reasonable.

 

[Griffon]

The Bobs are working overtime.

 

[Raven77]

Xbox is dead. I hate saying that as a lifelong fan.

MS has applied for over 5000 H1b's this year. The company is being gutted of any talent it has left.

 

[bitbydeath]

She is there to sell and dismantle everything.

Final goal make Bethesda light and sell, maybe stay only with Activision and Minecraft milking cod, king and blizzard stuff.

King and Mojang were moved out of Xbox and put directly under Asha.

I think that move signifies them as the only two safe studios.

Everything else.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

MS xbox is so badly manage, and twisted DEI hiring and go woke and go broke adds to the injury.

Thats a small part of the problem. The bigger part was no accountability and given free reign.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Some hate DEI folks with a passion (partially helped by how antagonistic and aggressive some of these people are in the industry… like a pendulum swinging) and some just want to justify / spin what InsertXboxGamersFriendCEO is doing whatever they are doing at the moment into something positive.

I do not hate them and in fact I feel sorry for them because they are actually victims of the real racism....i mean seriously what is more racist than being told you need the help of white people to succeed...you're not smart enough to do it on your own. I have taught many black people and the issue of race never gets brought up. I try and help them be their best selves. It treat them as human beings....and guess what? We have a lot of fun! Crazy I know!

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Why do all yall think every one of these 3,200 people are all DEI hires?

True. More than likely they were mostly white males. There is not a demographic that is easier to let go and fire more easily.

 

[AJUMP23]

As games for Xbox release you will see more layoff. Gears comes out, 100 people will be gone. Fable comes out Turn 10 will have to cut a lot of people.

It is going to happen.

 

[Gamer79]

You want to see what is wrong in Xbox and probably every other devolpment studios ??

Watch this

 

[DEAD ORIGINAL]

Getting rid of dead wood, unproductive, useless, trouble makers, ideology people is vital.

 

[AtomicStarving]

1600? lol

 

[Humdinger]

It must be tough to be working for MS studios now, knowing that the Sword of Damocles is hanging over you. You know another 1600 people will be cut, but you don't know who will get the axe, or when it will fall. It must be very worrisome. You've got sadness and worry over the people just cut, and then fear about your own future. Morale must be pretty low.

You can't really be creative in an environment like that. Fear inhibits creativity; it restricts everything to safe, familiar choices. That's another negative consequence of these layoffs and especially the ones to come.

 

[PeteBull]

Is Blizzard not safe? Doesn't World Of Warcraft just print money at this point?

WoW got feminised and dei-ed hard, bro, they let old woman in charge of that game, its cooked beyond belief...

Thats the bitch thats in charge of it now, she deems name "warcraft" to be intimidating

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

Imagine watching your friends get laid off and then being told that more layoffs are coming before the end of the year while being expected to put out your best work.


This is why Xbox is cursed and can't seem to manage any studio well. This is the kind of shit that destroys morale and affects quality of work.

 

[kiphalfton]

Imagine watching your friends get laid off and then being told that more layoffs are coming before the end of the year while being expected to put out your best work.


This is why Xbox is cursed and can't seem to manage any studio well. This is the kind of shit that destroys morale and affects quality of work.

Oof.

Would be rough knowing the reaper is right around the corner.

I'd be look for a new job if I were in their shoes.