Xbox2 hardware: good, yet disappointing at the same time [from a developer]

doncale

Banned
guys, I don't know what to make of this. supposedly from an Xbox2 developer and someone who hangs out on the PS3insider / PSInext forums

Cpiasminc wrote:

I think the key difference here in terms of hardware for Xbox2 is the fact that Microsoft wanted to play a bigger part in deciding on the hardware. In fact, this time around, they're in full control, whereas the last time, basically nVidia did the entire system. Microsoft definitely makes great developer tools and documentation, and it would be silly to think that XNA will not amount to much. But the thing is that they are clearly without any sense at all when it comes to hardware. The fact that they choose to centralize their FSB or share a single L2 cache among 3 processors shows some real lack of insight. The biggest flub would have to be that 10 MB eDRAM on the GPU -- which I'm told is really MS's idea (both MS and ATI told me that much) -- that just says they didn't even think about resolution.

Hardware-wise Xbox2 is getting disappointing the more I look at it... and I know I shouldn't really be saying that since I'm actually developing on it. But by disappointment, I should say -- it won't suck or anything remotely near sucking... it just won't be anything monstrously groundbreaking -- let's just say it's Moore's Law looking perfectly normal and healthy. The GPU will have some serious power all right, as will the CPU. But if you think of the difference between PS1 and PS2, you should see about the same growth from Xbox to Xbox2, but at the same time, taking into account the difference in resolution, content, shader complexity and everything else put together.

All in all, Xbox2's total system architecture is still very PC-like. Or Mac-like in this case. In that sense, it will probably be easier to develop for. The thing is that SIMD is very important to getting any major performance out of PPC processors these days. Without it, they're basically Celerons. So avoiding pipeline stalls and concerning yourself with *instruction latency* is going to be huge on all 3 consoles with this upcoming generation. In some ways, that actually means we've gone back to the '60s in terms of programming. It's just that it's the 60s with 3 million line codebases.


BTW, I should also note that based on what I'm hearing from every studio I've been to, I'd have to say that, at least for the first generation of games on next-gen consoles, you will not see anything running at 60 fps. There is not one studio I've talked to who hasn't said they're shooting only for 30 fps. Some have even said that for next-gen, they won't shoot higher than 30 fps ever again.


As for PS3... well, it looks as though PS3 will be the hardware king this time around. Just as Xbox had the powerful hardware in current-gen. The question of whether it will be that easy to develop on is still up in the air. Developing a cross-platform engine for Xbox2, PS3, PC, NRev will likely be damn-near impossible. I'd expect a codebase with more #ifdefs than code, the way things look. I don't expect graphical power to be that massively different between PS3 and XBox2, though. They're essentially very similar GPU pipes... PS3's will probably have some features that Xbox2's doesn't and vice versa. Where the difference will lie is going to be in CPU power. How that will manifest itself is still very uncertain. If the graphical power is smaller, that may also mean there is more value for studios to do multi-SKU titles, and we may see a bigger glut of games that are available for all 3 or at least 2 of the 3 consoles.

Then of course, comes the business hand of Microsoft... in this Sony is definitely second, but I wouldn't count it as a gaping hole. I mean, Sony is an 11-figure yearly revenue company, too. If nothing else, PS3 can drive home the point of CELL as an architecture. And in that sense, Sony is playing for the longer term than MS. OTOH, MS is the sort of company that can afford to play out a generation at a time.


http://www.psinext.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6282


Panajev, Gofreak, KleeGamefan and others, what say you?
 
This is almost exactly what I've been hearing everywhere. Though the Edram thing is a first for me.
As for the 30 fps thing, at the risk of getting shot in the head for everyone here, I'm actually happy about it in some sense. 60 fps first person shooters make me actually physically sick, while I have no problem watching a 30 fps one (not that I'm a big fan of the genre or anything). The only genres that really benefit from 60 (IMHO of course) would be racing games and fighting games (along with very fast action games like DMC and Ninja Gaiden), and I expect all next gen games from these genres to be locked at 60.
 
Sounds like the impression thats been given by virtually every 360 (yeah im gonna start calling it that now) vs PS3 thread.

Im not sure i like PS3 having the muscle edge with 360 maybe having a graphical one (due to simplicitiy) it seems backwards to me, all the developers i want to push CPU specs (by which i mean push interactive gameworlds, invest more into AI, all kinds of open ended stuff) are all Xbox developers. And all the developers i want to make pretty things are PS2 devs.


I guess both sets will still have lots more power to play with.
 
Ghost said:
Im not sure i like PS3 having the muscle edge with 360 maybe having a graphical one (due to simplicitiy) it seems backwards to me, all the developers i want to push CPU specs (by which i mean push interactive gameworlds, invest more into AI, all kinds of open ended stuff) are all Xbox developers. And all the developers i want to make pretty things are PS2 devs.

:lol Good point. I never thought of it that way.
 
Well if he's disappointed that Xbox 360 doesn't break Moores Law, he's also going to be disappointed regarding PS3 and Revolution as they won't either. The only bit of information that I’ve I heard corroborated with other developers is the point that he reckons graphical differences will be slight.
 
I guess I don't understand this guys complaint about jump in power.

PSone to PS2 was a pretty damn big leap. If Xbox 360 can accomplish the same type of jump over Xbox then I'd say this is more than adequate.

As long as Xbox 360 is comparable to PS3 that is fine. I just don't want the Xbox 360 to be a generation behind and it doesn't sound like this is the case.
 
I'd be dubious about "developers" on forums discussing next-gen systems. Most who value their jobs wouldn't. There's nothing particularly revelatory in there that hasn't been rumoured or discussed elsewhere, though the mention of edram and framerate issues seems odd to me. Having a chunk of edram on the GPU can hardly be construed as a bad thing...and 10MB would surely make for an adequate framebuffer for hidef resolutions, if it had to be used as such, which i kind of doubt (For 720p you would need (1280x720x32)/8 bytes, right? So ~3.7MB, maybe multiply by 2 if you want double-buffering)
 
The above reads like nonesense, whats the point of new hardware if it can't turn out more detailed & complex games running at a rock solid 60fps. Whats the point? Why would a developer aim for 30fps?.

You may aswell stick with the current gen & make do. Is it me or is expectations really low for the next gen of consoles. Is it me or is gaming taking small steps backwards ?

Sony hype ain't cutting it this time around, mainly due to MS's financial muscle & technological no how. Stuff like this is article is pointless. It reads like its made up, well it does to me.
 
Thompson said:
The above reads like nonesense, whats the point of new hardware if it can't turn out more detailed & complex games running at a rock solid 60fps. Whats the point? Why would a developer aim for 30fps?

You'll always have 30fps games. Though they won't ALL be 30fps, I'm sure, even starting out, as suggested in that post. Those games that are 30fps will be so in order to pump out more detailed or complex visuals. Rare will be a prime candidate for pushing the framerate down as far as they can in order to increase visual fidelity :P That tradeoff, framerate versus complexity, will exist for some time yet.
 
Some devs will invariably dip the framerate below 60 fps.

Fact of the matter is, most casual gamers might be able to sense a difference between 30 fps and 60 fps, but they really don't know what that difference is exactly.
 
Thompson said:
The above reads like nonesense, whats the point of new hardware if it can't turn out more detailed & complex games running at a rock solid 60fps. Whats the point? Why would a developer aim for 30fps?.

by going to 30fps, they can get more bells and whistles and for their games to look more attractive; and it'd be consistent. That's how it is with a lot of current gen titles, divert system resources to get a nicer looking title instead of 60fps. Movie playback is normally encoded at about 25fps so 30 is more than adequate. Like Blimblim said, the only genres that will need 60fps are fighting and racing ones.

Your post is the one that reads like uninformed nonsense.
 
Thompson said:
The above reads like nonesense, whats the point of new hardware if it can't turn out more detailed & complex games running at a rock solid 60fps. Whats the point? Why would a developer aim for 30fps?.

What do you mean whats the point? The point of new hardware is vastly better graphics. Also, 30fps is perfectly playable. As others have said, only a few genres will need the 60fps.
 
Suggesting that Microsoft chose an embedded RAM size without considering framebuffer issues doesn't give the impression that this writer has a good understanding of it.
 
Lazy8s said:
Suggesting that Microsoft chose an embedded RAM size without considering framebuffer issues doesn't give the impression that this writer has a good understanding of it.

He isnt suggesting that i think. He is simply implying that MS are taking a similar outlook of high res gaming as Nintendo is doing. Chances are that you will see Sony with the highest resolution games next gen.
 
But thats a contradiction Odnetnin, I'm sure you aware of game developers going for detail over frame rate & ending up shooting themselves in the foot.

Detailed+high frame rate > Alot of detail+low frame rate.

The latter looking a mess due to all sorts of digital noise & other problems assosiated with lower frame rates. Its actually a downside of modern gaming, due to the heart of the gaming industry moving to the west. Why they don't understand this is beyond me.
 
Monk said:
He isnt suggesting that i think. He is simply implying that MS are taking a similar outlook of high res gaming as Nintendo is doing. Chances are that you will see Sony with the highest resolution games next gen.
All xbox 2 games will run natively in widescreen 720p, with a specialized graphics chip who will downscale or upscale from 480i up to 1080i if I understood correctly. Unless PS3 supports 1080p, I'd rather have a true progressive game in 720p than getting once again interlacing issues in 1080i (though I'm pretty sure PS3 will have true 720p support too). I sure will buy my next TV with true 720p in mind.
 
Frame rate wars......naaah, I don't believe you guys would argue 30fps v 60fps.

Pimpbaa, would you argue 30fps v 60fps?

60fps should be standard & it should be what developers are aiming for today & definatly next gen, everything else should be compromised to maintain that holy grail. I understand some games can work at lower frame rates. But they look so much better & your gaming pleasure is enhanced x10 because of high framerates.

Frankly any developer who thinks otherwise should be doing something else.
 
Thompson said:
But thats a contradiction Odnetnin, I'm sure you aware of game developers going for detail over frame rate & ending up shooting themselves in the foot.

Detailed+high frame rate > Alot of detail+low frame rate.

The latter looking a mess due to all sorts of digital noise & other problems assosiated with lower frame rates. Its actually a downside of modern gaming, due to the heart of the gaming industry moving to the west. Why they don't understand this is beyond me.

Digital noise due to lower frame rates?! wtf? Most of the lower frame rate games on the xbox have less "digital noise" than 60fps games. Probably due to the use of anti-aliasing and better filtering methods for textures. For the type of games I enjoy, I perfer more detailed graphics than frame rate.
 
Thompson said:
But thats a contradiction Odnetnin, I'm sure you aware of game developers going for detail over frame rate & ending up shooting themselves in the foot.

Detailed+high frame rate > Alot of detail+low frame rate.

The latter looking a mess due to all sorts of digital noise & other problems assosiated with lower frame rates. Its actually a downside of modern gaming, due to the heart of the gaming industry moving to the west. Why they don't understand this is beyond me.

your post is ridulous. What is this?

Detailed+high frame rate > Alot of detail+low frame rate.

and this?

Its actually a downside of modern gaming, due to the heart of the gaming industry moving to the west.
 
If I see one more person saying they are "satisfied" with 30 fps I'm gonna flip out and kill somebody.

30 fps < 60 fps < 90 fps et cetera

Ask ANY PC gamer. Play ANY FPS with smoke grenades or lots of decals.

BUT! If 30 fps means better graphics, higher polycount and cripser textures I can live with it (Majora's Mask *cough* *cough*).

sysgen said:
I hope it's nonsense because if I have to endure another MS 30 FPS racer I'm not gonna be a happy camper.

Get a PS3 then. No crappy 30 FPS capped racers there :) (or so I hope)
 
Thompson said:
Frame rate wars......naaah, I don't believe you guys would argue 30fps v 60fps.

Pimpbaa, would you argue 30fps v 60fps?

60fps should be standard & it should be what developers are aiming for today & definatly next gen, everything else should be compromised to maintain that holy grail. I understand some games can work at lower frame rates. But they look so much better & your gaming pleasure is enhanced x10 because of high framerates.

Frankly any developer who thinks otherwise should be doing something else.

Haha, enhanced x10? Sorry, framerate isn't that important (except in fighters and racing games).
 
Thompson, Bizarre Creations greatest fan. As for fps, 60 is always nice, but I have major problems telling the differance.
 
Blimblim said:
Unless PS3 supports 1080p


I think that is what that dev wants, ie to have no limitations. I think I may need a new tv too, the difference from regular tvs to high res tvs will be too great. :(
 
It should be obvious why devs are aiming for 30fps if they can get away with it. These are first generation games on next gen hardware. Devs are not that familiar with the hardware yet.

In order to give that next gen visual feel over current gen optimised games, they are gonna aim for as much eye candy as possible. Unless 60fps is critical for first gen games they will avoid it and go for the graphics whores! And you biatches are all closet whores :)
 
I don't really care about 60 fps vs 30 fps. All I care about is that the framerate should be smooth with no slowdown at all. If you can't aim for 60 fps without any slowdown, then don't do it at all.
 
Racers should be 60fps. I don't see it AS necessary (although would be nice) in other games. Also racing games should have AA as well. AA makes the biggest difference in those I think..
 
I'm assuming that MS will have at least one car racing game at launch (PGR3?) and if this guy tells the truth, then Bizzare, after loosing their way while making no.2, have yet to find the right path.

It's at least nice to know that GT5 will be 60 fps and still look better than all the 30 FPS crap out there :P
 
I guess we can look forward to all the whores whining about 30fps games at E3. Awesome. I wish all the games ran at 60 just to shut everyone the fuck up.
 
Borys said:
If I see one more person saying they are "satisfied" with 30 fps I'm gonna flip out and kill somebody.

30 fps < 60 fps < 90 fps et cetera

Ask ANY PC gamer. Play ANY FPS with smoke grenades or lots of decals.

That's because pc game framerates fluctuate so wildly (worse than a steady 30fps IMO). High framerates can help gameplay in first person shooters as well (when spinning around quickly and such). It's not an issue in console gaming, since most try to prevent any fluctuating framerates by optimizing the game for the hardware.
 
10 MB, if that really is the size, seems ok to me. More would always be better, but if you have a transistor budget, some is always better than none.

You put the 1280x720 32-bit back buffer and 32-bit Z in the eDRAM, put the front buffer out in main RAM.

That needs 7,372,800 bytes < 10 MB edram.

The remainder you can use for rendertarget effects.

You can always do some chunking of the display in software if you really want higer resolutions or deeper framebuffers, it's just more work.
 
OK, that 30 fps comment is NOT what I want to hear...

That's really terrible news UNLESS they perfect film quality blurring effects (which I doubt).
 
You'll have to expand Odnetnin, explain whats ridiculous about those statements, its true. You give me any game genre ......actually I'll wait for your explanation. But yeah, the x10 was a little low.

Frame rates are very important, I think I can safely say without fear of ridicule the PS2 would have been long buried if MS got PGR2 & Halo2 running at a solid & detailed 60fps. In fact Sony's master stroke was to get GT4 running at 60fps at the cost of all other things. Forza could have been a nail in the coffin for Sony going into the next gen.

MS dropped the ball.....
 
Not having a lot of 60fps titles is really going to suck.

But what can you expect, I guess? Casuals don't care about framerate, and publishers would rather have something that looks great in screenshots than something that moves flawlessly smooth in person. Not many Western developers care about that level of polish either.

After a while, PC will be the only platform where the 60 fps goal remains alive.
 
The whole 30/60 fps is getting tired. Fact is some devs will always want to throw in more FX at expense of framerate....whilst others will drop them for 60fps.
 
gofreak said:
I'd be dubious about "developers" on forums discussing next-gen systems. Most who value their jobs wouldn't.
Yeah me as well. Try and get element or Fafalada to say anything real about what they know.
Cpiasminc said:
I don't expect graphical power to be that massively different between PS3 and XBox2, though. They're essentially very similar GPU pipes... PS3's will probably have some features that Xbox2's doesn't and vice versa.
Exactly what I was expecting.
 
Thompson said:
You'll have to expand Odnetnin, explain whats ridiculous about those statements, its true. You give me any game genre ......actually I'll wait for your explanation. But yeah, the x10 was a little low.

Frame rates are very important, I think I can safely say without fear of ridicule the PS2 would have been long buried if MS got PGR2 & Halo2 running at a solid & detailed 60fps. In fact Sony's master stroke was to get GT4 running at 60fps at the cost of all other things. Forza could have been a nail in the coffin for Sony going into the next gen.

MS dropped the ball.....


You are clearly delusional and I won't debate any of this with you. :lol
 
Thompson said:
You'll have to expand Odnetnin, explain whats ridiculous about those statements, its true. You give me any game genre ......actually I'll wait for your explanation. But yeah, the x10 was a little low.

Frame rates are very important, I think I can safely say without fear of ridicule the PS2 would have been long buried if MS got PGR2 & Halo2 running at a solid & detailed 60fps. In fact Sony's master stroke was to get GT4 running at 60fps at the cost of all other things. Forza could have been a nail in the coffin for Sony going into the next gen.

MS dropped the ball.....

Forza could run at 120 fps and it still wouldn't sell 1/5th of Gran Turismo 4.

Casuals usually don't even understand the concept of framerate within a video game.
 
android said:
Yeah me as well. Try and get element or Fafalada to say anything real about what they know.


Well, he was being vague on everything except for the 10MB eDRAM, I hope he doesnt get fired over that.
 
Pimpbaa, whats this "It's not an issue in console gaming".

Tell me this is not a mindset of modern day console gamers, please. Somebody tell me the masses with low expectations for there games & who are happy for 30fps games & sequel after sequel year in year out, have not taken over.

I'm a console gamer & I expect developers to programme to the metal, but maintain that high frame rate. 30ffps hurts.

If you're telling me before the next gen is here, developers are already taliking of 30fps & you're happy about that, something is wrong.

Oh & pug.....;)
 
If this 30 fps shit is true I won't be there for xbox2 launch. There is a huge difference between 60 and 30, and those that don't see it aren't very hardcore.
 
Ok, since I don't think anyone in here besides dark10x has actually played a PC FPS (say Quake 3) at 30, then 60 and > 100 FPS (continuos graphic card upgrades) and thus CAN'T tell the difference between 30 and more FPS I'll give you a better example console only peeps:

Zelda Wind Waker and Zelda: OoT - Master Quest on the GameCube.
The difference in fluidity, in FPS is staggering, like night and day.

More FPS is always better, people. In every genre. There's no other way around it.

Reminder: I can live with low FPS games on consoles, even with stuttering (Banjos and Zeldas on N64 are a prime example). But I'd rather not.
 
Thompson said:
Frame rates are very important, I think I can safely say without fear of ridicule the PS2 would have been long buried if MS got PGR2 & Halo2 running at a solid & detailed 60fps. In fact Sony's master stroke was to get GT4 running at 60fps at the cost of all other things. Forza could have been a nail in the coffin for Sony going into the next gen.

MS dropped the ball.....

:lol
 
Monk said:
Well, he was being vague on everything except for the 10MB eDRAM, I hope he doesnt get fired over that.
Actually he wasn't being vague. He made critical remarks about a system that hasn't even been annouced yet on a message board. That can't make his employer or MS happy if they find out.
 
Borys said:
Ok, since I don't think anyone in here besides dark10x has actually played a PC FPS (say Quake 3) at 30, then 60 and > 100 FPS (continuos graphic card upgrades) and thus CAN'T tell the difference between 30 and more FPS I'll give you a better example console only peeps:


Where the hell are those fucking huge rolling eyes when you need them?
 
There is a game that is still in my PS2 collection today, solely because of its gorgeous 60-FPSdness! This game is Dropship... early 2002 release. This game would be NOTHING without its high framerate...
68238462011.jpg


For a great example from last-gen... there was this PSOne game called Turbo Prop Racing... OMG... 60 FPS goodness. Again, it wouldn't be the game it is without the framerate.

psx-turbopropracing.jpg


Okay, I don't really know where I'm going with this, other than to say 60 FPS rocks the house, and I think its more important than texture work.
 
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