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[lachesis]

TH-50PHD6UY 50" Widescreen Professional HD Plasma Display Panel

with my recent raise and to accomodate my new home, I am thinking of ditching my faitful 32 inch, old-and-heavy-as-xxxx Sony (non-flat, no component) TV - which has served my main videogame monitor for past 6 years.

I have read great things regarding LCD projections (Grand Wega) and DLP tvs from this forum... especially from Klee's posts, and I know up and downs of plasmas abit. Possible burn-ins, short life span, contrast level, viewing angles, etc etc. I actually want to spend less money and would like to settle with large DLP or LCD Projection - but my wife is defintely more interested in plasma and LCD's thin, space saving looks. Yes, it's a lot of money, and I realize could spend it much more wisely - but I also love my wife and her preferences if possible - and this is one of the occasions which I can grant her wishes - getting a large, flat pannel TV.

Thus my research began, and I found this on C-net, which can be bought sub 5000 dollars on the internet.

Great thing about this plasma is though - it pretty much suits my purpose of getting an monitor. It doesn't have much of options - and as far as I know, it comes with no speakers, 1 composit input, 1 svideo input, 1 vga input, etc. However, it has plenty of optional parts, which can be added via expansion ports, such as DVI port, etc. Since I have infamous Bose home theater system (thanks to my wife's affection to Bose products as well), I am in no need for extra speakers. What I wanted is a large, thin, and simple display, which this model fits definitely into the category. (nothing much to look at, but very basic and simple.) According to C-net, this thing at least shows top-notch imageries, one of the best in 50 inch plasma category, so I'm kinda fallen for that. Not in a dead hurry, but i'm thinking of buying at least in a couple of months - perhaps late September, or perhaps mid October.

Thus my question is... that how bad is burn-in in recent Plasma monitors? Is it like playing videogames are not recommended at all times? I sometimes play games for few hours (especially for winning eleven series, which has fixed bar up and down), but I hardly do not consider myself an hardcore videogamer, and I wish not to turn-down the contrast level during my play session... Should "burn-in" be in my consideration before I buy the machine?

2nd question is - how reliable are those plasma-warehouse.com or other internet services? I know some manufactures void their warranty on internet shops - and would those extended warranty worth getting?

3rd question. does any of you have burning anger against anything plasma/lcd? Why and what would you recommend instead?

Thanks in advance,
lachesis

 

[Cooper]

Since you seem pretty concerned about burn-in, you might be interested in reading this thread. You'll probably be okay if you're careful, especially when the plasma is new. Take a break from non-16:9 material (videogames, 2.35:1 dvds, standard definition TV) every couple of hours, and turn down the contrast at least for the first few weeks.

 

[Crazymoogle]

I have read great things regarding LCD projections (Grand Wega) and DLP tvs from this forum... especially from Klee's posts, and I know up and downs of plasmas abit. Possible burn-ins, short life span, contrast level, viewing angles, etc etc. I actually want to spend less money and would like to settle with large DLP or LCD Projection - but my wife is defintely more interested in plasma and LCD's thin, space saving looks. Yes, it's a lot of money, and I realize could spend it much more wisely - but I also love my wife and her preferences if possible - and this is one of the occasions which I can grant her wishes - getting a large, flat pannel TV.

1. Never, EVER buy a TV without seeing it in action. EVER.

2. Plasma is thin, but it's not exactly light, and many manufacturers say your warranty is voided if you attempt to transport the thing yourself.

3. Plasma is vulnerable to burn in. If you are buying a burn-in vulnerable TV, you need to get professional color calibration done, period. Don't even think of touching the contrast/brightness. If you get a professional to do the job, and they do the job right, burn in might be a bearable issue for you (unless you start touching those controls). Check hometheaterforum or avsforum to be sure.

4. DLP is surprisingly thin. Still not nearly as good as Plasma/LCD, but respectable. If you can find a great 3-chip set and can't see any rainbow effect, that should be your purchase (unless, of course, you want to splurge on LCOS, which fits all of your wishes but is ridiculously rare and expensive)

5. LCD suffers from major ghosting. Plasma suffers from minor ghosting depending on the model. Plasma screens can lose half of their brightness in a year without proper calibration. These problems are not fixable.

6. Read all of the pages in this document.

 

[Cooper]

If you can find a great 3-chip set and can't see any rainbow effect, that should be your purchase (unless, of course, you want to splurge on LCOS, which fits all of your wishes but is ridiculously rare and expensive)

Are there any 3-chip rear projection DLPs? I know there are 3-chip front ones, but I'm guessing he'd go for an RPTV given the size he's looking at (~50").

 

[lachesis]

Thanks, Cooper and CrazyMoogle - for your helpful advice.

1. Never, EVER buy a TV without seeing it in action. EVER.

Very true: I'm going to see the models with my own eyes before I commit.
Only thing is, I couldn't find where they might show-case the model - as it's a retail model, not for home use...

2. Plasma is thin, but it's not exactly light, and many manufacturers say your warranty is voided if you attempt to transport the thing yourself.

Hmm.. I realize that plasmas are rather heavy, the model that I was looking at is not too bad at around 95 pounds.

. Plasma is vulnerable to burn in. If you are buying a burn-in vulnerable TV, you need to get professional color calibration done, period. Don't even think of touching the contrast/brightness. If you get a professional to do the job, and they do the job right, burn in might be a bearable issue for you (unless you start touching those controls). Check hometheaterforum or avsforum to be sure.

I did not realize that professional callibration is quite necessary - I was thinking of doing it myself with one of those DVD calibration videos...

4. DLP is surprisingly thin. Still not nearly as good as Plasma/LCD, but respectable. If you can find a great 3-chip set and can't see any rainbow effect, that should be your purchase (unless, of course, you want to splurge on LCOS, which fits all of your wishes but is ridiculously rare and expensive)

LCOS, as far as I can see, it's a pretty new technology - in other words, a bit early to commit for me. However, that's coming from my research, not from my own eyes, so I'm definitely keeping my options open. DLP is an excellent choice for my own good, but for some reason, my wife is shying away from anything projection, and anything thick. I tell her the newer ones are as thin as around 10 inches, but still no good. However, DLP or LCD Projections, we will also look at before buying too, so there's a good chance of getting one of them.

5. LCD suffers from major ghosting. Plasma suffers from minor ghosting depending on the model. Plasma screens can lose half of their brightness in a year without proper calibration. These problems are not fixable.

LCD pannels are as for now, out of question - although they are thinnest and most sleekest looking, but I just didn't like the color schemes (could be calibrated, but I find most of the display models are way too saturated and too bright, and very choppy in refreshrates - but i hear new ones are pretty decent) - not to mention, there are only handful of choices when it comes to 50 inches. The LCD model I"ve seen (I think it's Aquos) it made Spiderman DVD look like a home video. Most Plasmas I've seen, I really like how they looked, somewhat softer than LCD (not blurry, but each pixel seemed to be softer for some reason), colors were rich but not too saturated, etc Plasma losing brightness in a year would be somewhat extreme - and I am not too much of extreme TV abuser - my TV watching hours are about 30-1 hour a day average, and many days I go without watching anything. Videogaming hours are less than 8 hours per week. However I do like high contrast, high brightness screens when I do watch, so I will have to take that into my consideration....

Anyhow, thanks for all your input. I will definitely check out DLP/LCDPs, and even LCOSes... (any suggested models?) I will have to see the rainboweffect myself with those DLPs. (I hear 3chip models would suffer from sharpness department, as it would be extremely difficult to produce 3 beams to perfectly align to each other for HD definition). Difficult part is how to convince my wife.

lachesis

 

[Cooper]

I will have to see the rainboweffect myself with those DLPs. (I hear 3chip models would suffer from sharpness department, as it would be extremely difficult to produce 3 beams to perfectly align to each other for HD definition). Difficult part is how to convince my wife.
lachesis

Well, there are no "beams" per se in DLP (or any non-CRT) televisions. But yes, imperfect alignment of the images would lead to a misconvergence in a 3 chip system. Unless the convergence is horrible, you probably won't notice it unless you look at a grid test pattern.

For what it's worth, we've had a single chip DLP for a couple years and are quite happy with it. Good luck in your hunt.

 

[lachesis]

Thanks. btw, what model DLP do you have? (I'm definitely leaning towards dlps and lcd projections now, upon further ivestigation - but yet to convince my wife, the toughest part.. ).

lachesis

 

[DaCocoBrova]

I'd really suggest going to a TV showroom and compare. I walked away with a pocket full of cash and no TV last week because there's no sweet spot currently w/ TVs. Either pay more (than you intend) to get exactly what you want, or make compromises here and there.

DLP sets and those similar have bulbs, and they're not too cheap.

 

[lachesis]

True... definitely will check out in person before comitment. At this point, I'd take rather expensive (3-400 dollars), replaceable bulb rather than irreplaceable screen (which is my point), but who knows. More than likely, before any of those bulb would go away or even screen fades away, it's more than likely that I would replace with a newer, better TV in 5-10 years.

lachesis

 

[Cooper]

btw, what model DLP do you have?

It's Mitsubishi's original DLP model, the WD 65000. It's a beast at 300 pounds, but Mits' newer ones are much lighter and slimmer. My parents have a Samsung DLP, but they mostly use it to watch low-quality DirecTV channels (I guess they'll upgrade to HD later), so I haven't seen it with a really high quality signal. It looks pretty good with DVDs though.

 

[lachesis]

Thanks. Yes, definitely weight comes into my consideration, as I had horrible time of moving my current CRT tv. (one of the reason I want to get rid of... too heavy and can't lift it myself. Dumb reason, but I like things to be more manageable..)

lachesis

 

[golem]

went to look at the Mitsubishi 52525 dlp yesterday... mmm thats some good stuff. Might have to score one before Halo 2 rolls out.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Very true: I'm going to see the models with my own eyes before I commit.
Only thing is, I couldn't find where they might show-case the model - as it's a retail model, not for home use...

As true as that is, keep in mind that the amount of money you're putting forth is like buying a used car. If you don't feel comfortable about buying a used car sight-unseen, why would you buy a TV the same way?

I did not realize that professional callibration is quite necessary - I was thinking of doing it myself with one of those DVD calibration videos...

Forget it. A certified calibrator has access to all of the system menu's you will never see, so not only is your contrast/brightness set up, but also things like geometry, disabling features that are just going to mess up your picture, and so on. A lot of TVs are set up out of the box to look great in a retail setting only, which is the quick road to burnin and a terrible picture.

LCOS, as far as I can see, it's a pretty new technology - in other words, a bit early to commit for me.

Well honestly, the only LCOS problem right now is price. I would without question go with one if you can find and afford it.

DLP is pretty cool because most sets suffer very little off-angle viewing problems compared to traditional projection. If you want a wall projector, well, you're on your own with that, but there have been threads in the past about it.

Something you should do, possibly even if you don't play games - bring in a system and a couple of games and try it out right on the show floor. Sometimes TV looks respectable, but a game almost always brings out the best and worst of a display. Personally, I would bring a Gamecube, F-Zero GX, Metroid Prime, and the component cable to test 16:9 (FZ only) and progressive scan before I buy any new TV. 10 minutes should be able to tell you if you like the picture or if you're starting to feel the nausea, eyestrain or headaches related to things like poor refresh rates, ghosting and color blurs.

One last thing - if you do end up going DLP, make sure your wife sees the TV in action first too. When it comes to the rainbow effect, everybody who watches the TV has to be involved.

 

[Cooper]

Forget it. A certified calibrator has access to all of the system menu's you will never see, so not only is your contrast/brightness set up, but also things like geometry, disabling features that are just going to mess up your picture, and so on.

While I don't disagree that an ISF expert could optimize the picture and "safety", displays like plasmas don't need a lot of the traditional adjustments like geometry, covergence or focus.

One last thing - if you do end up going DLP, make sure your wife sees the TV in action first too. When it comes to the rainbow effect, everybody who watches the TV has to be involved.

Likewise for a single-chip LCoS TV.

 

[Crazymoogle]

While I don't disagree that an ISF expert could optimize the picture and "safety", displays like plasmas don't need a lot of the traditional adjustments like geometry, covergence or focus.

That's true. But I wouldn't put it past a lot of vendors to have some other silly stuff set up though.

Likewise for a single-chip LCoS TV.

You mean likewise for any TV with that level of involvement. LCOS has no moving parts or rainbow issues I'm aware of, though, so it's hardly going to be a case of bringing it home only to become a disaster for everyone else.

 

[Cooper]

You mean likewise for any TV with that level of involvement. LCOS has no moving parts or rainbow issues I'm aware of, though, so it's hardly going to be a case of bringing it home only to become a disaster for everyone else.

That's true for 3-chip LCoS systems, but 1-chip ones do indeed have moving parts. Philips' own description of their single chip LCoS TV:

"The individual spectrums of light are then passed on to a Prism system which grabs the light and scrolls each color over the Philips Single Panel LCOS. Each color effectively covers 1/3rd of the LCOS panel. These stripes of colors spin at 180 revolutions (180 Hz) per second across the LCOS panel."

Since I don't see rainbow effects, I can't comment if a single chip LCoS is better/worse/same for rainbows than a single chip DLP. Anyway, letting everyone see the TV and decide is the right thing to do regardless of the technology.

 

[Deg]

Thus my question is... that how bad is burn-in in recent Plasma monitors? Is it like playing videogames are not recommended at all times? I sometimes play games for few hours (especially for winning eleven series, which has fixed bar up and down), but I hardly do not consider myself an hardcore videogamer, and I wish not to turn-down the contrast level during my play session... Should "burn-in" be in my consideration before I buy the machine?

Panasonic plasmas are the most durable and have the lowest chance of burn in for any plasma. Which is why you see them being used in supermarkets, trade shows and public places more than any brand. They may also still have the best black levels too. CRT like(you can also tweak it). Contrast are also solid.

 

[lachesis]

Thanks all, for kind concerns and replys. I think I will decide when I see the real thing, for sure. If I do get a plasma, I will definitely consider having pro to calibrate my machine, or if not, keep down the contrast level and warm-up the screen for few weeks.
(hopefully, my wife would approve thinner DLP/LCDPs, though, and the rainbow effect won't be too bothersome to my eyes.)

lachesis

 

[Crazymoogle]

Since I don't see rainbow effects, I can't comment if a single chip LCoS is better/worse/same for rainbows than a single chip DLP. Anyway, letting everyone see the TV and decide is the right thing to do regardless of the technology.

I'm still not convinced Rainbow Effects are very possible given the lack of a mirror array, but having done some more research on LCOS I have to admit anything is possible once you move away from JVC's 'D-ILA' method. Some of the LCOS set types appear to just be the the result of manufacturers scrapping LCDP.

Thanks for piping up though, I'm pretty much going to have to write a big guide on this now.

 

[Dilbert]

I have a 50" Samsung DLP and love it to death. It's only about 90 pounds and 17" deep, or something like that, so it's hardly a beast by any description. I went through a similar sort of tradeoff analysis before spending big money on a TV, and DLP won hands-down. Plasma lost because of burn-in concerns (most TV and games are 4:3), price (you pay more at a certain size for plasma versus other technologies), and resolution (most plasmas at that time weren't truly HD capable). LCD lost because of response time/ghosting (the major concern) and defective pixels.

As far as rainbows -- you need to watch a DLP and see if you're susceptible. I can't see them in normal viewing, but I've learned how to force myself to see them. In some cases, I have heard that people start seeing them all the time once they "learn how," so I won't encourage you to experiment.

 

[Crazymoogle]

As far as rainbows -- you need to watch a DLP and see if you're susceptible. I can't see them in normal viewing, but I've learned how to force myself to see them. In some cases, I have heard that people start seeing them all the time once they "learn how," so I won't encourage you to experiment.

I think I've seen the Samsung TV type you've mentioned, in stores. It's quite a thing of beauty to watch.

As for the rainbow stuff, just reading heavily on google I've found a couple of cases where guys could train themselves to see it a bit, and then train themselves not to notice it again, but it really depends on how susceptible you are. The best way to see the effect if you can't is to shake your head rapidly.

One interesting like discussed how much faster the color wheel would need to be to theoretically eliminate rainbow effects in single chip solutions - apparently military research has it pegged at 2.5x the speed of the best ones today.

 

[Dilbert]

Yeah, or look at the center of the screen and flick your eyes away quickly. Also, I can ALWAYS see rainbows when sitting off to the side of DLP front projectors during business meetings.

It never bothers me at home, so I'm one of the lucky ones, I guess....