Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
In many ways two of the most controversial sequels Nintendo has ever developed. Which one is better in your opinion? Were they both good?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Zelda: Wind Waker vs Super Mario Sunshine
- Thread starter Shikamaru Ninja
- Start date
Korranator
Member
I'm sure most will disagree with me but, Sunshine > TWW. I hated all that sailing crap, and the later half of the game felt rushed, and unfinished.
They were both great games.
Mario Sunshine, as far as controls and ease of platforming goes, is the best platformer this generation. Jak, Ratchet and the like have worse cameras and controls worse than Sunshine.
The Wind Waker is an amazing game that reeks of charm and polish. The combat, control, camera, story, and the graphics are all top notch, but content as far as the main game goes is just a tad on the short side compared with what we are used to.
That said, the fetch quest tossed in doesn't take that much time and collecting the purple scrolls is fun because you're given a mini-dungeon, side-quest, or battle dungeon for each scroll. A tad easy too, but easily corrected by collecting less hearts.
Mario Sunshine, as far as controls and ease of platforming goes, is the best platformer this generation. Jak, Ratchet and the like have worse cameras and controls worse than Sunshine.
The Wind Waker is an amazing game that reeks of charm and polish. The combat, control, camera, story, and the graphics are all top notch, but content as far as the main game goes is just a tad on the short side compared with what we are used to.
That said, the fetch quest tossed in doesn't take that much time and collecting the purple scrolls is fun because you're given a mini-dungeon, side-quest, or battle dungeon for each scroll. A tad easy too, but easily corrected by collecting less hearts.
The Wind Waker, by far. I really wasn't expecting much at all, and was pleasantly surprised (all my hype towards the purchase of the game went to the chance to play Master Quest).
The Wind Waker is one of the very few games I have ever gone to replay in its entirety, and I still thought it was a good game the second go (which this time I watched Link sail around instead of switiching it to The Simpsons or King of the Hill like I did the first time).
Sunshine... I don't know. It never captured the same feel as SM64. It had some fun moments like the Fluddless levels... I don't know. SM64 DS is looking a lot more fun to me than SMS did.
The Wind Waker is one of the very few games I have ever gone to replay in its entirety, and I still thought it was a good game the second go (which this time I watched Link sail around instead of switiching it to The Simpsons or King of the Hill like I did the first time).
Sunshine... I don't know. It never captured the same feel as SM64. It had some fun moments like the Fluddless levels... I don't know. SM64 DS is looking a lot more fun to me than SMS did.
DemonCleaner
Member
TWW > nearly all things this gen
SMS < most things this gen
SMS < most things this gen
Pedigree Chum
Banned
I like SMS more, even though the game wasn't polished enough the mechanics and (some) levels were awesome. Wind waker was ok, and the sailing/triforsce hunting brought down the game hardcore.
radioheadrule83
Banned
Both really good, yes.
WIND WAKER
+ Brand new adventure with complete change of scenery / story / denoument
+ Great intro, the game starts as it means to go on adding a nice depth to the games' protagonists and villains.
+ Some of the best cel-shaded graphics you'll find, and beautiful animation (check out Dodongo's Cavern for a good showcase)
+ Expansive overworld, lots of things to collect/find
+ The bestiery and general imagery is sometimes reminicent of A Link to the Past. The soundtrack, while more celtic in feel to other games (and some dislike it for it), does ALSO borrow from older Zelda games too. It's a bit of a nostalgia treasure trove at times.
+ Some amazing boss fights.
+ Great additions to the fighting engine... reactionary moves, interactive soundtracks
- Sailing, while enjoyable to many, requires changing the wind a lot. Some gamers never find the song that makes it easier.
- Two dungeons were reportedly taken out of the game towards the end of development. It is noticable.
- Link's new abilties in combat, haven't been complimented with a sufficiently difficult AI...
- ...this could have been fixed if enemies did more damage, but they don't. This reduces the challenge in the game. In terms of puzzles and gameplay otherwise, it's no more easy/harder than the other 3D Zeldas though... you just won't die thats all.
Has its faults, and is under the shadow of some great games... it's a miracle it stands up as well as it does. Had there been a cel-shaded sequel, with an older Link, and some of these faults rectified - I think we'd of had a true classic on our hands.
MARIO SUNSHINE
+ Intuitive control as always - really easy to get used to.
+ Fun to just mess around in the game.
+ Cutscenes are visually decent, and nice to have included.
+ Graphics aren't what many expected of next-gen mario, but the water is fantastic and the draw distance is infinate. Frame rate silky smooth. Same can be said of Zelda actually
+ Yoshi is in the game and you can ride him.
+ There are secret levels that involve nothing but pure platforming, and they are brilliant.
+/- Mario's got some new moves as you would expect, and most are good. Sadly he's lost some as well...
- Aside from the normal Star/Coin/Red-Coin collection that was present in the prior Mario game, there is also the matter of Blue Coins in this game. Collecting 10 gets you a star. Some can only be found on a certain level, on a certain mission... meaning you have to literally backtrack and scour every inch of the game to get a full compliment of stars.
- The FLUDD water jetpack device, removes some of the pick up and play element found in Mario games. And the fact that the only powerups available revolve around this device makes it seem like more of a side quest than a true sequel to Mario 64...
- ...and the same can be said of the sunny locales. No snow, no grassy plains, mountains or otherwise. No castles etc. While some of the locales are really beautiful, and have great level design, it is a shame there isn't more of the classic Mushroom Kingdom variety.
- The voicework will either be hilariously bad or just plain awful depending on your taste in humor.
- The inhabitants on the isle of Mario's vacation are pretty boring to say the least. A Mario game with koopas and goombas again, and proper power ups would kick all sorts of ass. If you think along the same lines, this game will dissapoint...
...however... it's still among the best platformers this gen.
WIND WAKER
+ Brand new adventure with complete change of scenery / story / denoument
+ Great intro, the game starts as it means to go on adding a nice depth to the games' protagonists and villains.
+ Some of the best cel-shaded graphics you'll find, and beautiful animation (check out Dodongo's Cavern for a good showcase)
+ Expansive overworld, lots of things to collect/find
+ The bestiery and general imagery is sometimes reminicent of A Link to the Past. The soundtrack, while more celtic in feel to other games (and some dislike it for it), does ALSO borrow from older Zelda games too. It's a bit of a nostalgia treasure trove at times.
+ Some amazing boss fights.
+ Great additions to the fighting engine... reactionary moves, interactive soundtracks
- Sailing, while enjoyable to many, requires changing the wind a lot. Some gamers never find the song that makes it easier.
- Two dungeons were reportedly taken out of the game towards the end of development. It is noticable.
- Link's new abilties in combat, haven't been complimented with a sufficiently difficult AI...
- ...this could have been fixed if enemies did more damage, but they don't. This reduces the challenge in the game. In terms of puzzles and gameplay otherwise, it's no more easy/harder than the other 3D Zeldas though... you just won't die thats all.
Has its faults, and is under the shadow of some great games... it's a miracle it stands up as well as it does. Had there been a cel-shaded sequel, with an older Link, and some of these faults rectified - I think we'd of had a true classic on our hands.
MARIO SUNSHINE
+ Intuitive control as always - really easy to get used to.
+ Fun to just mess around in the game.
+ Cutscenes are visually decent, and nice to have included.
+ Graphics aren't what many expected of next-gen mario, but the water is fantastic and the draw distance is infinate. Frame rate silky smooth. Same can be said of Zelda actually
+ Yoshi is in the game and you can ride him.
+ There are secret levels that involve nothing but pure platforming, and they are brilliant.
+/- Mario's got some new moves as you would expect, and most are good. Sadly he's lost some as well...
- Aside from the normal Star/Coin/Red-Coin collection that was present in the prior Mario game, there is also the matter of Blue Coins in this game. Collecting 10 gets you a star. Some can only be found on a certain level, on a certain mission... meaning you have to literally backtrack and scour every inch of the game to get a full compliment of stars.
- The FLUDD water jetpack device, removes some of the pick up and play element found in Mario games. And the fact that the only powerups available revolve around this device makes it seem like more of a side quest than a true sequel to Mario 64...
- ...and the same can be said of the sunny locales. No snow, no grassy plains, mountains or otherwise. No castles etc. While some of the locales are really beautiful, and have great level design, it is a shame there isn't more of the classic Mushroom Kingdom variety.
- The voicework will either be hilariously bad or just plain awful depending on your taste in humor.
- The inhabitants on the isle of Mario's vacation are pretty boring to say the least. A Mario game with koopas and goombas again, and proper power ups would kick all sorts of ass. If you think along the same lines, this game will dissapoint...
...however... it's still among the best platformers this gen.
TheGreenGiant
Banned
its like comparing apple and oranges.
OKTHXBYE
OKTHXBYE
SpoonyBard
Banned
Both were excellent games, I liked The Wind Waker better.
Dynamite Shikoku
Congratulations, you really deserve it!
Zelda beat the pants off Mario Sunshine
Wow, no "this thread is stupid, close it!!" mindless protests like the Ocarina of Time vs ICO thread 
I think both games were good in each respect, still boot up both to stuff around in their own worlds. Last week I was admiring how huge the draw distance was for Mario Sunshine for about the 500th time and the other day I was still going around taking photo's of enemies to turn into statues for my Wind Waker collection.
I think both games were good in each respect, still boot up both to stuff around in their own worlds. Last week I was admiring how huge the draw distance was for Mario Sunshine for about the 500th time and the other day I was still going around taking photo's of enemies to turn into statues for my Wind Waker collection.
Mega Man's Electric Sheep
Member
- "The FLUDD water jetpack device, removes some of the pick up and play element found in Mario games."
I don't agree, as I have a friend who doesn't play platformers who enjoyed Sunshine due to the ability to hover to more easily line up and land jumps.
"This reduces the challenge in the game. In terms of puzzles and gameplay otherwise, it's no more easy/harder than the other 3D Zeldas though... you just won't die thats all."
I don't agree with this either. I've been stumped by a puzzle now and then in every Zelda.....except this one. The dungeons are easier. Particularly that mindlessly simplistic water based one.....and that's the third dungeon out of the five! (No, I don't count Stealtheriffic, Black and Whiteville, or Ganontown as full dungeons)
I don't agree, as I have a friend who doesn't play platformers who enjoyed Sunshine due to the ability to hover to more easily line up and land jumps.
"This reduces the challenge in the game. In terms of puzzles and gameplay otherwise, it's no more easy/harder than the other 3D Zeldas though... you just won't die thats all."
I don't agree with this either. I've been stumped by a puzzle now and then in every Zelda.....except this one. The dungeons are easier. Particularly that mindlessly simplistic water based one.....and that's the third dungeon out of the five! (No, I don't count Stealtheriffic, Black and Whiteville, or Ganontown as full dungeons)
radioheadrule83
Banned
Well as a Zelda fan who's played everything except the CDi games (which after today's thread I really wish I'd done)... I guess you're right.
Majora's Mask is definately harder than Wind Waker puzzle wise. So is the Ocarina of Time Master Quest. But Ocarina of Time was something I didn't find hard at all, and was totally on a level with Wind Waker for me. I'm of course not saying I didn't find it enjoyable figuring out what I had to do... I'm just saying that as a Zelda fan, both were elementary.
A matter of lighting torches, pushing blocks, shooting or standing on switches. Whenever I walked into a room in either, I'd figure it out pretty quickly. Both had dungeons were the item you found was key to their harder puzzles as well... it was like a hint in and of itself. The only one that took a lot of time for me was the Water Temple. But even then: once you figure out which floor your progress isn't blocked on, you just go through the motions. The Well in Kakariko and the Shadow Temple added a nice dimension, but one tricky dungeon does not a vexxing game make. I found both to be far easier than their 2d counterparts, but very very enjoyable none the less.
If there's any doubt... despite the cons I listed in my appraisal of each - I recommend SMS and TWW highly to anyone. Go in with realistic expectations. SMS is players choice, and TWW will be soon no doubt. They're totally worth it.
Majora's Mask is definately harder than Wind Waker puzzle wise. So is the Ocarina of Time Master Quest. But Ocarina of Time was something I didn't find hard at all, and was totally on a level with Wind Waker for me. I'm of course not saying I didn't find it enjoyable figuring out what I had to do... I'm just saying that as a Zelda fan, both were elementary.
A matter of lighting torches, pushing blocks, shooting or standing on switches. Whenever I walked into a room in either, I'd figure it out pretty quickly. Both had dungeons were the item you found was key to their harder puzzles as well... it was like a hint in and of itself. The only one that took a lot of time for me was the Water Temple. But even then: once you figure out which floor your progress isn't blocked on, you just go through the motions. The Well in Kakariko and the Shadow Temple added a nice dimension, but one tricky dungeon does not a vexxing game make. I found both to be far easier than their 2d counterparts, but very very enjoyable none the less.
If there's any doubt... despite the cons I listed in my appraisal of each - I recommend SMS and TWW highly to anyone. Go in with realistic expectations. SMS is players choice, and TWW will be soon no doubt. They're totally worth it.
evilromero
Member
I think one could make a strong argument for Super Mario Sunshine being the best game this gen. But at the same time Wind Waker was more accessible for a broader audience. My personal vote goes to Sunshine, my game of the year 2002.
Some days its:
SMS>>>WW
Other days its:
SMS<<<WW
Super Mario Sunshine is a better game to just pick up and play for short periods of time. There are about a dozen levels I enjoy playing over and over (plus the secret levels). The games biggest downfall isn't it mechanics & power-ups or its camera (both work very well) but its setting. SMS arguably bests SM64 in every possible way, but it didn't feel like a "true" Super Mario game. Throw in some classic setting and charaters and this game probably would have been considered the best in th series.
After replaying MM, Wind Waker has become may favorite in the Zelda series. MM just has a very bewildering beginning that can making getting into the game very difficult (although, once you do the rest is great). WW has better presentation and gameplay than any other Zelda game (though OoT has a better story, WW tells its better). WW beginning isn't that great and while the sailing isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be, more land would have beeb appreciated.
Both games are great.
Metroid Prime is better than both.
SMS>>>WW
Other days its:
SMS<<<WW
Super Mario Sunshine is a better game to just pick up and play for short periods of time. There are about a dozen levels I enjoy playing over and over (plus the secret levels). The games biggest downfall isn't it mechanics & power-ups or its camera (both work very well) but its setting. SMS arguably bests SM64 in every possible way, but it didn't feel like a "true" Super Mario game. Throw in some classic setting and charaters and this game probably would have been considered the best in th series.
After replaying MM, Wind Waker has become may favorite in the Zelda series. MM just has a very bewildering beginning that can making getting into the game very difficult (although, once you do the rest is great). WW has better presentation and gameplay than any other Zelda game (though OoT has a better story, WW tells its better). WW beginning isn't that great and while the sailing isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be, more land would have beeb appreciated.
Both games are great.
Metroid Prime is better than both.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
i loved both - noki bay in SMS and the sailing in WW were standouts for me.. in fact i loved the sailing music so much in WW that i'd just drive around in circles so i could listen to it
i'd get out of the boat on one of those tower platforms and some of the instruments of the sailing song would stop.. OH SO GOLDEN
*reaches for wavebird*
i'd get out of the boat on one of those tower platforms and some of the instruments of the sailing song would stop.. OH SO GOLDEN
*reaches for wavebird*
ToyMachine228
Member
I completely love both of them. But if I had to pick one, I'd go with The Wind Waker.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Ironically I still think Zelda: A Link to the Past is the most totally perfect Zelda game in the series - I still get goosebumps when I load it up via GBA.
However I think TWW and SMS are about on equal footing with one another. Unlike many, they didn't dissapoint me in any way that truly mattered - while I could say they didn't exactly blow away my expectations, my expectations were pretty high. While TWW was a little easy, I felt it was a lot more balanced than Zelda: TooT and I really got into how it had *gasp* a noticable number of enemies wandering around, unlike TooT's often barren, lifeless world.
SMS, I guess I "got" how they were trying something different with a single cohesive theme and every world in the game fit logically into a location on the island. Do we have to have say, the Ice World in every single game ever? Really? It helped that I LOVE the tropical theme. The lighting, water, music... everything makes it inviting and refreshing. I really want to vacation on that island; it's beautiful. So naturally I loved running around playing Mario in the place.
Both games have flaws, but then I don't think that drags them down from what they are. I felt Zelda: TooT was actually a rather flawed game that suffered from a first attempt of putting Zelda in 3D - different strokes.
Also, I will say that TWW and SMS gave me "that special feeling" that is elusive and hard to describe upon first booting them up - like ye olde Nintendo games of NES and SNES yore used to give and I found largely missing on the N64.
However I think TWW and SMS are about on equal footing with one another. Unlike many, they didn't dissapoint me in any way that truly mattered - while I could say they didn't exactly blow away my expectations, my expectations were pretty high. While TWW was a little easy, I felt it was a lot more balanced than Zelda: TooT and I really got into how it had *gasp* a noticable number of enemies wandering around, unlike TooT's often barren, lifeless world.
SMS, I guess I "got" how they were trying something different with a single cohesive theme and every world in the game fit logically into a location on the island. Do we have to have say, the Ice World in every single game ever? Really? It helped that I LOVE the tropical theme. The lighting, water, music... everything makes it inviting and refreshing. I really want to vacation on that island; it's beautiful. So naturally I loved running around playing Mario in the place.
Both games have flaws, but then I don't think that drags them down from what they are. I felt Zelda: TooT was actually a rather flawed game that suffered from a first attempt of putting Zelda in 3D - different strokes.
Also, I will say that TWW and SMS gave me "that special feeling" that is elusive and hard to describe upon first booting them up - like ye olde Nintendo games of NES and SNES yore used to give and I found largely missing on the N64.
DIrtyWeasel
Member
I liked both games, but I enjoyed Wind Waker more.
Mario Sunshine is probably my favorite platformer this generation... but that's not saying much since there aren't many good platformers I like this gen.
Wind Waker is one of my top 3 games of any genre this generation.
Mario Sunshine is probably my favorite platformer this generation... but that's not saying much since there aren't many good platformers I like this gen.
Wind Waker is one of my top 3 games of any genre this generation.
jooey said:
It is much longer than 2 hours and offers plenty of bonus challenges for the player. Mario, on the otherhand, FORCES you to perform a large number of poorly designed, boring tasks mixed in with a number of good ones.
5 hours of quality >>>>>>>>>>>>> 20 hours of mediocrity
Mario is only mediocre when one takes the content together as a whole. The game controls well and offers lots of fantastic challenges, but there is so many boring tasks required of the player that it brings the game down.
Wind Waker > Sunshine
Wind Waker was OK other than the sailing. The villages and dungeons and some of the secrets were fun. There were some interesting mini-games, like the picture puzzles in the cabana and the auctions. It all looked very cool with the toon/cell/fun/whatever shading. It was still the worst Zelda but it wasn't all bad.
Mario Sunshine on the other hand was total crap except for the little subworlds (the only areas with clever level design and without FLUDD; makes sense). Main areas like the Hotel, the Theme Park, and the first world with the Windmill make me wonder if Nintendo just slopped this game together with design material they rejected during Mario 64's development. They even removed Mario 64's excellent swimming controls and chose to include only one underwater area (not a very good one at that). Ugh. I could go on, but long story short I was very disapointed with Mario Sunshine.
Wind Waker was OK other than the sailing. The villages and dungeons and some of the secrets were fun. There were some interesting mini-games, like the picture puzzles in the cabana and the auctions. It all looked very cool with the toon/cell/fun/whatever shading. It was still the worst Zelda but it wasn't all bad.
Mario Sunshine on the other hand was total crap except for the little subworlds (the only areas with clever level design and without FLUDD; makes sense). Main areas like the Hotel, the Theme Park, and the first world with the Windmill make me wonder if Nintendo just slopped this game together with design material they rejected during Mario 64's development. They even removed Mario 64's excellent swimming controls and chose to include only one underwater area (not a very good one at that). Ugh. I could go on, but long story short I was very disapointed with Mario Sunshine.
Catchpenny
Member
Ah hell, I typed up a few paragraphs on this and my browser crashed. So let's do the Readers Digest version:
Klonoa 2 - worst of the Klonoa games I've played
SMS - Fun getting the main shines and playing the old school levels, not fun collecting all 120 shines.
TWW - Great game with annoyances regarding sailing and lack of difficulty. I didn't mind the sailing as much as other people, but hope that Nintendo puts selectable difficulty levels into the next Zelda that determine how much life you lose on a hit.
TWW > SMS > Klonoa 2. I think all three are worth playing, though.
Klonoa 2 - worst of the Klonoa games I've played
SMS - Fun getting the main shines and playing the old school levels, not fun collecting all 120 shines.
TWW - Great game with annoyances regarding sailing and lack of difficulty. I didn't mind the sailing as much as other people, but hope that Nintendo puts selectable difficulty levels into the next Zelda that determine how much life you lose on a hit.
TWW > SMS > Klonoa 2. I think all three are worth playing, though.
Wind Waker > Sunshine.
I have high respect for both...but Wind Waker's main problems (apparently) weren't even a factor to me; the Triforce quest and sailing in general didn't bother me on bit. I do feel that it needed two more dungeons and a bit more geography, but other than that I loved it.
On the other hand, I noticed all of Sunshine main faults. And the crappiest final boss area ever. EVER. It has level design issues, and some definite length ones. I thought it controlled awesomely, and had a lot of fun, but some of it just didn't work for me.
So sue me for actually liking both, though.
I have high respect for both...but Wind Waker's main problems (apparently) weren't even a factor to me; the Triforce quest and sailing in general didn't bother me on bit. I do feel that it needed two more dungeons and a bit more geography, but other than that I loved it.
On the other hand, I noticed all of Sunshine main faults. And the crappiest final boss area ever. EVER. It has level design issues, and some definite length ones. I thought it controlled awesomely, and had a lot of fun, but some of it just didn't work for me.
So sue me for actually liking both, though.
clipunderground
Member
Wind Waker without a doubt. Screw the haters, I fucking loved that game! One of my favorite endings too! Super Mario Sunshine was good, but something was missing for me I think. *scratches head*
IAWTP
DIrtyWeasel said:
IAWTP
Sunshine and Wind Waker are double-edged swords.
No one cared about other games before their releases, because everyone expected those to set the standard for their genres like the N64 predecessors did.
After that didn't happen, top games in their same genres on the PS2 suddenly became infallible.
No one cared about other games before their releases, because everyone expected those to set the standard for their genres like the N64 predecessors did.
After that didn't happen, top games in their same genres on the PS2 suddenly became infallible.
Catchpenny said:
Eh? While I like it the most, I could see how someone could prefer the original. However, the GBA games (platformers and RPG included) as well as the Volleyball game all kind of suck. The GBA platformers fail to even come close to the two console games in terms of everything. The level design is just so bad...