That situation could not be more different from this one. In that game a member of the crowd attacked a player and the player defended himself. In this one a player assaulted a member of the crowd.
OK State Basketball player Marcus Smart shoves fan
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That situation could not be more different from this one. In that game a member of the crowd attacked a player and the player defended himself. In this one a player assaulted a member of the crowd.
So guilty before proven innocent?
Why should I believe Smart? He is the hothead who pushed someone and will get suspended.
SteveWinwood
Member
Are we really comparing a bunch of drunkards at a professional nhl game breaking glass to fight a player to a stupid old guy yelling at a college basketball player?
No. I don't understand why you keep trying to make this a (no pun intended) black and white issue. We don't know what was said for sure, and we probably never will. Our reaction needs to stem from that reality.
I just KNEW someone would eventually bring up this point. Yes, to some, words mean more than others and have a more devastating impact. Would that old guy have said go back to Europe to a white basketball player? No. He purposely chose those words because they have greater impact on a black player.
If I do a Nazi Salute, it means jackshit to an Asian guy, but if I do it in front of or to a Jewish guy, it takes on more meaning no? You've pretty much solidified my impression of you and why you're so aggressive in your attempt to paint Marcus Smart as the guy completely in the wrong here.
HalfBakedProphet
Member
I'm interested to hear what was said. The way Smart's head whipped around, it definitely got his attention
Its kinda dumb to get too heated over this yet, the context can still change quite a bit
Its kinda dumb to get too heated over this yet, the context can still change quite a bit
1) My point was that the fan wasn't charging the court or anything of the sort. There was no reason for Smart to physical assault him.
2) You don't have to suffer injuries to be the victim of assault.
4) Because Smart is an athlete who physically assaulted a member of the crowd. That is more damning than some racist bigot shouting insults from the sideline.
Becuase he pushed the guy....duh.
If Smart just walked back to the bench this thread wouldn't exist.
Yes we don't know....and yet i don't see you reprimanding the numerous posts in this thread coming from the angle that the guy used a racial slur.
We don't know what the guy said...but everyone seems to have agreed he called him a nigger...oh but then that changed to "go back to africa." After that is accepted as truth everyone proceeds to "understand" what Smart did.
1) I never said he should have or even was right to do so. I said I understood why he would, because that's what happens in the real world.
2) Assault also has different degrees in the legal world. Why aren't we using the same thinking here?
4) That thinking completely absolves the fan of any responsibility and only enables this to happen again in the future. They both need to be reprimanded.
I also asked you to point out all the posts saying Smart shouldn't be punished, and you copped out - so please don't try to play that game.
I understand what he did regardless of what was said, because it was clearly enough to incite a reaction. Everyone has a button that will get a reaction when pushed. Doesn't make it right, and doesn't excuse it (I don't know how many times I have to keep saying this) but I can understand it because I am able to put myself in that situation and understand why he would react that way.
Hey cdyhybrid, tell madness we don't know exactly what the dude said.
Yes, some words are heavier than others, I didn't say otherwise. What i said is no words justifies violence. If a nazi saluted in front of a jewish person, i would expect them to act like an adult, not fly off the handle.
Expect and hope are two different things. I would HOPE they wouldn't react, but I don't EXPECT them to, because every person is different. Some things that are said cross a line, and unless you've been in that situation it's hard to understand that.
Yeah.
Calling a black guy a nigger or telling him to go back to Africa is worse than a light shove.
That's generally how it goes. You'd have an argument if Smart mollywhopped dude but he didn't.
One size does not fit all. Nigger is stronger than telling someone they suck, just like punching someone is a lot worse than pushing someone.
If you don't see it that way then that's on you.
Regardless of anything both parties fucked up. Smart should have walked away and all that. And the fan should watch his Goddam mouth.
1) "The real world" isn't a college basketball game. Go out drinking and call someone a nigger or tell them to go back to Africa? Excpect to get your face punched in.
Do the same on the sidelines of the game? Expect to be escorted out or punched by the guy sitting next to you or jumped outside after the game.
2) What is your understanding of the legal definition of assault?
3) If the story was "Smart gets into shouting match with racist fan" then this would be a different discussion. By elevating the confrontation to a physical one he put the spotlight on his actions.
Jest Chillin
Member
If you were being reasonable rather than taking a staunch stance, it should be obvious that the circumstances of the situation warrant that Smart isn't likely to have reacted to that particular fan in that manner unless that fan said something out of the ordinary elicited that reaction. He didn't get physical with the two guys who were right next to him as he got up. He specifically confronted that particular fan who is KNOWN to cross the line of good taste in his taunts. As posted earlier in the thread by another Gaffer here Orr is having an absurd reaction to the opposing team scoring. Note that not a single other person in the seats around him has a response anything close to his.
And again, you can't have your cake and eat it too in your argument. Either Smart wasn't lost in anger and flying off the handle and was thus able to think of his career in immediately after the fact to create what you're insinuating was a lie for damage control... or he was lost in anger and flying off the handle in which case what he was going to do 5 minutes from then wasn't likely to be in his mind, let alone his career.
SteveWinwood
Member
Yeah bro violence is always the braver and wiser answer.
Ah, so only the person who has the words said to them is expected to act like an adult, not the guy who says them? It's simple, one guy is double his age, and "possibly" said some type of slur, most likely racial. He wasn't acting like an adult and was shoved for it. I'm all for free speech, but you can expect "consequences" for that speech.
And yeah, I mean who cares if the Jewish person didn't lose family in the Holocaust, who cares if all his life, he's been called Jewish insults, he should "act" like an adult right? Wow, like what world do you live in man?
You can't insult or berate people and then wonder why you're lying flat on your ass.
you guys have incredibly low standards for people.
Wow. Your expectations are unrealistically high. Humans are full of emotion and tend to act off emotion more often than not. I would expect a Nazi salute toward some jews to garner a ton of negative attention, even a few flying off the handle.
Everyone is not like you.
No we just don't live in the apparent utopia you do where no one ever does something due to emotions.
You live a seriously sheltered life if you don't understand that people react to shit differently
Was going to post this video but it was already covered. Smart should have known better since the guy was baiting him, but this guy obviously has history. Time to boot him.
1) I don't understand this. You seem to say it only happens after going out drinking, but in the second part you say it also happens on the sideline of a game. Can you clarify?
Regardless, this sort of thinking is what shields grown-ass fans when they act like ignorant children on XBOX Live. It needs to stop. These players aren't even getting paid or trained to put up with this abuse like pro athletes.
2) My understanding is that it has different degrees that are used because not every assault is the same.
3) I never said he shouldn't get the spotlight, he's a bigger name and is more widely-known than the booster. But Smart getting the lion's share of the attention doesn't exclude the booster from getting at least a little bit.
Well, when I see 50+ year old men verbally abusing college kids that they paid money to watch, it's hard not to.
jordan0386
Member
This thread should be 100 percent pro-Smart. But, when you have a worldly forum, you really get to see how some just don't give a fuck about the respect for a black person.
I feel he called him a racist term. Its the only logical explanation for the behavior.
I feel he called him a racist term. Its the only logical explanation for the behavior.
It's simple then, since racial slurs inevitably lead to violence or confrontations between those they are said to, let's ban them. I mean we are all adults, we'd never use them in our everyday lives. So does everyone here agree with that?
Of course not, because I'm assuming many of you love the fact that you can say words or insults that invalidates another's "existence". Because you like having that power over someone. And you know that there really aren't any words or insults that are said back to you, that have that same impact, which is why you are so vehemently against any physical confrontation.
It's simple, if you expect someone to act like an adult, treat them like one. If you want to verbally/racially taunt someone, expect a response, most likely physical. That being said, I agree Marcus Smart is in the wrong here, he'll be reprimanded and won't likely do it in the future. Hopefully the fan learns he was in the wrong too.
Of course not, because I'm assuming many of you love the fact that you can say words or insults that invalidates another's "existence". Because you like having that power over someone. And you know that there really aren't any words or insults that are said back to you, that have that same impact, which is why you are so vehemently against any physical confrontation.
It's simple, if you expect someone to act like an adult, treat them like one. If you want to verbally/racially taunt someone, expect a response, most likely physical. That being said, I agree Marcus Smart is in the wrong here, he'll be reprimanded and won't likely do it in the future. Hopefully the fan learns he was in the wrong too.
SteveWinwood
Member
The man who escalated yelling from a stupid man to shoving? Why does he deserve respect. He should know better, he's not dumb.
He's a coward according to MLK jr. Nonviolence is for the brave.
Of course the fan was wrong. He should get booted out. Saying that the player did something wrong is not instantly defending the man in the crowd and it's crazy seeing that so much in here. Apparently I'm a defender of his according to some people here. It's not so black and white and it's amazing how fast some will jump down each others throats.
I thought I lived in a world where the ideals of non-violence and compassion for thou enemies were commendable.
Maybe I woke up in mad max world where people aren't expected to turn the other cheek, and lowering yourself to someone's else immaturity is okay.
Not sure where you are getting the idea that I think the nazi is okay in this scenario, but he is nazi. Kind of goes without saying i don't expect much from trash.
still no proof the guy actually called him a nigger by the way
There are KKK rallies in America that don't erupt into violence. There are neo-nazi's around the world and none of them are getting killed.
I don't think it's utopian or even extreme to see people not debase themselves in violence. We see it everyday
This guy has done shit BEFORE as seen on video. John Lucas III has said dude talks out of the side of his mouth... As has countless others... And yet he still gets the benefit of the doubt. Dude said he regret what he said. And copped pleas right away when Smart moved towards him...
And yet you still don't think he said anything racist?
And yet you still don't think he said anything racist?
Sorry to blow your mind buddy, but I'm not a white racist. I'm a black guy who actually believes in non-violence beyond a shallow surface
So yeah use that argument on someone else.
SteveWinwood
Member
It literally doesn't matter what he said. There is no excuse for him to be shoved. He should have been booted long ago, for the season or permanently if he has a history of this. But there is no excuse for a player to shove someone in the stands.
There are way better ways of handling it.
Well, lets see...
We have a 50+ year old guy verbally abusing a college kid for a period of time.
And a kid who pushed a guy who had verbally abused him for a period of time.
Basically, the standard we have take into account the fact that people push back against verbal abuse from time to time.
There are better ways to handle most things.
Doesn't mean people won't have sympathy for how Smart handled it.
Putting all the blame on the player ensures this will never happen, by the way.
Do you mean the video where he does the "fuck you" with the elbow thing. I don't think that is a racial sign, nor does it prove he actually said what he is accused of saying.
Of course. Smart isn't in the right. He was wrong.
However I do understand why he did what he did. Doesn't make it right and he should and will be punished for it..... But I understand why it happened
SteveWinwood
Member
This may blow your mind, but fans have been thrown out of games, and even seasons without a player ever touching them. Crazy I know.
I think this is where everyone is getting confused and talking past each other. Everyone knows why it happened and no one is really excusing it. But some will say 'well he shouldn't have done that' going more with the we shouldn't excuse it and it's interpreted more as 'I don't understand why he did it'. Yeah he's a young kid all worked up. Shit happens we know that. It's still wrong. We know why he did it.
Doesn't matter. The thread has deemed the fan a racist. Doesn't matter what he truly said. We will not wait to find out the truth before judging. Racist.
Ignore all the evidence that says otherwise. Dude is a known piece of shit.
I really dont get why you are defending him so hard here.
Sorry to blow your mind buddy, but I'm not a white racist. I'm a black guy who actually believes in non-violence beyond a shallow surface
So yeah use that argument on someone else.
Sorry to blow your mind back buddy, but I didn't say you were a white racist. I said your obvious defense of the racist guy, means you like having the ability to say what you want free of consequences. This includes being black and insulting Chinese, being white insulting Mexicans etc.
I'm a pacifist, I rarely ever fight, I've seen my share of racism in my life. I've had enough "nonviolent" deflections of racism in my life. I'm not going to crucify a player for "shoving" some guy in the heat of the moment. And let's be honest here, that's all it really was. A light shove, he didn't knock out the guy.
You expect too much from the guy at the receiving end, and too little from the guy at the giving end.
I bet this chair that he kicks the shit out of a few games ago had something crazy racist written on it. It couldn't be that a kid under incredible stress and pressure lost control of his emotions when things weren't going well for him.
If this new situation happened with 8 minutes left in the first half I'd be more likely to think the fan must have said something incredibly over the top. It didn't though. It happened right after Smart committed a foul that likely meant his team was going to lose. I'm not inclined to believe the fan couldn't have said something like "go back home you fucking loser" and it wouldn't have set Marcus off.
SteveWinwood
Member
Hmm? Why's that?
Not nearly often enough. Maybe if they were, it would actually cut down behavior like this. Because at the current rate, it isn't.
RACIST CHAIR!I bet this chair that he kicks the shit out of a few games ago had something crazy racist written on it. It couldn't be that a kid under incredible stress and pressure lost control of his emotions when things weren't going well for him.
If this new situation happened with 8 minutes left in the first half I'd be more likely to think the fan must have said something incredibly over the top. It didn't though. It happened right after Smart committed a foul that likely meant his team was going to lose. I'm not inclined to believe the fan couldn't have said something like "go back home you fucking loser" and it wouldn't have set Marcus off.
jordan0386
Member
Yea, he pushed the random dude because he was upset with his performance.
He was so upset with his performance, he told every coach and ref in eye view that he pushed him because he was upset with his performance.
He was so upset with his performance, he told every coach and ref in eye view that he pushed him because he was upset with his performance.
SteveWinwood
Member
I absolutely one hundred percent agree as I have stated multiple times in this thread.
This should be pretty much everyone's reaction.
Was the guy a racist douche who had it coming? Probably. We don't know what was said, but most signs are pointing that way.
Does that give Marcus Smart the right to shove him? Of course not. That's not acceptable, regardless of what he said.
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