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[Sub_Level]

It's not salvageable because a giant ship crashed into Manhattan offscreen and killed thousands of people, the president died, the US government is obviously guilty of conspiracy with no hope of a cover-up, etc. Everything is upended and nothing can be the same. It also takes the piss out of Metal Gear Solid by exaggerating all the game's flaws: Convoluted and silly plots with the Patriots, cartoonish and inexplicable villains in a serious setting with Vamp, long and pointless and even nonsensical codec conversations, etc. I legitimately cannot figure out how to make a decent sequel to it because the entire point was that everything was fucked up. You can make a game following it, sure, but it's not going to be able to address it solidly.

It's quite simple: be selective with what you address. Or set the game 100 years later. Or retroactively make it a VR mission or never speak about it again to maintain a sense of ambiguity. You're assuming that everything MGS2 did would have to be taken literally in a sequel, which is the exact mistake MGS4 made (although not the only mistake, because even a literal followup of MGS4 could have been done better).

Please explain to me what MGS2 did to force MGS4's hand at

Spoiler

having Naked Snake's support team become the original Patriots. Or Raiden becoming a ninja. Or Vamp being powered by Duracell Nanomachines. Or everyone for that matter being powered by Duracell Nanomachines. Or FOXDIE becoming dormant and lethal and dormant. Or a young savant loli creating a virus that solves like half the conflict in one fell swoop. Or Big Boss actually being alive. Or Mount Snakemore. Or Naomi's cleavage. Or the latter half of the B&B fights being softcore pornos. Or Ocelot utilizing a self-imposed mental doppelganger. Or e.t.c. e.t.c.

With regards to the Patriots being silly, the villains being cartoonish, and the codec conversations being nonsensical; absolutely all of those are relative. The conversation with President Johnson about the Patriots and subsequently Emma about the Y2K countermeasure were really cool. I thought Fatman was an awesome and funny character. Vamp was not terribly different from Grey Fox jumping multiple stories in the REX hangar. I don't recall any of the codec conversations being "nonsensical".

 

[Apathy]

FF9 - Vivi should have been the main character, he is way more likeable

 

[davepoobond]

Anyone who says mgs 2 is missing the point of mgs 2

The real answer is FFXII

Exactly.

 

[AniHawk]

uncharted.

instead of playing as unrelatable genocidal maniac nathan drake, who has the vague and uninspired career of 'treasure-hunter', we should have been playing as elena- a person who comes from our reality with an everyman background.

 

[TheSpoiler]

FF9 - Vivi should have been the main character, he is way more likeable

More likeable or no (I disagree), Zidane dealt with a lot more issues that only his character could have.

Hell, one of the central themes of "don't do shit on your own, you have problems too" couldn't be done by Vivi or any other character.

I'd also like to disagree with Bayonetta. Dante is Dante, and Bayonetta is Bayonetta. Her I-don't-give-a-fuck attitude but in a feminine way sealed the deal for me. It was perfect.

 

[Odrion]

The Last of Us.

Bioshock Infinite.

 

[Femmeworth]

uncharted.

instead of playing as unrelatable genocidal maniac nathan drake, who has the vague and uninspired career of 'treasure-hunter', we should have been playing as elena- a person who comes from our reality with an everyman background.

I like this.

 

[TheSpoiler]

uncharted.

instead of playing as unrelatable genocidal maniac nathan drake, who has the vague and uninspired career of 'treasure-hunter', we should have been playing as elena- a person who comes from our reality with an everyman background.

Egotistical and obsessive are better at describing him.

And what about Elena is any closer to reality beyond not having an obsessive personality? She survived being shot at with very minimal training (if any, IIRC), keeps a pretty level head during some outright ridiculous situations, and somehow ends up as a badass who can take care of her self without any explanation in a dangerous area.

It's just "action-movie" syndrome, and that's not necessarily a bad thing at all - it's enjoyable as fuck to watch them react to things in a nonchalant manner. But that applies to every character in that game since that's what they were going for.

 

[manzoman96]

yes

 

[Shig]

uncharted.

instead of playing as unrelatable genocidal maniac nathan drake, who has the vague and uninspired career of 'treasure-hunter', we should have been playing as elena- a person who comes from our reality with an everyman background.

Enduring the "Like Lara Croft, but blonde!" brush-offs would have been an adventure itself.

 

[Woorloog]

All non-open world (roleplaying) games with mute/blank/flat main character (eg Master Chief from Halo). Give me actual character, not a player-surrogate.

 

[RedSwirl]

Elizabeth should have been the protagonist of Bioshock Infinite.

People have argued this. Played right, Elizabeth's powers can essentially make Booker unnecessary, or at least not important enough to be the protagonist.

I don't know about Last of Us though. Part of the point of that story is the back-and-forth between Joel and Ellie.

uncharted.

instead of playing as unrelatable genocidal maniac nathan drake, who has the vague and uninspired career of 'treasure-hunter', we should have been playing as elena- a person who comes from our reality with an everyman background.

I don't think the problem with Uncharted is its protagonist. The problem is the mismatch between the story and gameplay. The problem is that it's a third person shooter trying to take place in the "real world" with "real" people. It's story is more fitting for an adventure game.

 

[Ultimadrago]

I would say Tales of the Abyss, but it would need more than a simple protagonist change to make it bearable. It would be a large step, certainly.

Ace Attorney 4 put the spotlight too much on Phoenix already, but to then make him the main character of AA5 after passing the torch to Apollo was even worse.

Thank goodness they did it too.

 

[AniHawk]

Egotistical and obsessive are better at describing him.

And what about Elena is any closer to reality beyond not having an obsessive personality? She survived being shot at with very minimal training (if any, IIRC), keeps a pretty level head during some outright ridiculous situations, and somehow ends up as a badass who can take care of her self without any explanation in a dangerous area.

It's just "action-movie" syndrome, and that's not necessarily a bad thing at all - it's enjoyable as fuck to watch them react to things in a nonchalant manner. But that applies to every character in that game since that's what they were going for.

she's an investigative journalist. that's a job pretty much anyone can have if they work for it (like, go to college). it's closer to indiana jones than nathan drake is. the fantasy of indiana jones isn't that he's a treasure hunter. he's a professor. he could be you or me.

we meet up with elena in uncharted 2 because she's actually after lazer vick. like her goal is to find the dude. her level of investment with the antagonist of the game is way higher than drake's until near the very end of the game when neil druckmann foolishly tried to fridge her.

nathan drake's just a guy who kills a bunch of people because some dude framed him for doing what he does (steal things).

 

[Femmeworth]

People have argued this. Played right, Elizabeth's powers can essentially make Booker unnecessary, or at least not important enough to be the protagonist.

I bet they considered it but didn't see it as financially viable which is hilarious in hindsight.

 

[TheSpoiler]

she's an investigative journalist. that's a job pretty much anyone can have if they work for it (like, go to college). it's closer to indiana jones than nathan drake is. the fantasy of indiana jones isn't that he's a treasure hunter. he's a professor. he could be you or me.

we meet up with elena in uncharted 2 because she's actually after lazer vick. like her goal is to find the dude. her level of investment with the antagonist of the game is way higher than drake's until near the very end of the game when neil druckmann foolishly tried to fridge her.

nathan drake's just a guy who kills a bunch of people because some dude framed him for doing what he does (steal things).

And Nathan is a treasure hunter because hell, that's what he wants to do. You could be a historian and chase artifacts around the world if you put your mind to it, also!

Drake spent years being taught by Sully. He isn't doing this randomly. Before Sully's intervention, he was already pretty well learned.

Elena's application of journalism is spotty at best and hilariously unrealistic, like those movies that view the world of writing as some sort of glamorous, exciting, dangerous gig.

Nathan doesn't shoot people for no reason. This is a common argument, and it's easily solved by playing the game.

Drake goes hunting for treasure
Drake finds treasure
Mercs shoot at Drake

What should Drake do in response? Talk it out over some tea? The fantasy of Indy is the hunt for the treasure, and his ridiculous luck. We can be Indy, but we can't be, because we aren't in a movie, and that's kinda what Uncharted aims for.

And in general, Drake has a shitty yet valid reason for what he does against his rivals - he's obsessed. That's the whole point of 3. That game served to call him out on his shit, his personality flaw. He's not suppose to perfect or have some sort of vendetta against the boss. That's what makes him different, and makes Elena or anyone else in the game not the right protagonist.

He's just obsessed with treasure and it takes a few games to get over that.

 

[Aesius]

Assassins Creed 3, wish the entire game could have been Haytham. Conor was a terrible lead character

Yep. Haytham ruled.

 

[Village]

Acted like a woman
Looked like a woman
Sounded like a woman

Should have been a woman.

How did he , in what relm sound like a woman.

Also how do women act?

 

[Coxy]

Grandia 3: Should have played as Emilious

Ys: Dogi is superior

Trinity Souls of Zill Oill: should have played as Nemea insterad of that fuck up

Binary Domain: should have let you play as anyone in the group when available

Ar Tonelico 2: should have just played as Cloche or Luca as originally planned, Croix is awful

 

[Korigama]

I probably would've liked Xenosaga better if Miyuki were the lead and Shion was the inventor side character instead.

 

[EightBitNate]

Ezio and Edward are such better characters than Conner in AC3 that it's ridiculous. Completely lifeless character compared to Ezio's slickness and Edward's no-nonsense attitudes.

 

[brickarts295]

Why GG


WHY

Definitely a missed opportunity right there. Heck I even forgot the Main Characters name.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Oh, and Raiden? Mutilated and forced into an imitation of a fan favorite character, forever stuck in battle as a crowd pleaser. If you see him as parallel to Kojima...

Well, if people want to be serious about this instead of just saying that Kojima didn't know what he was doing, then Raiden was meant to be the player. Literally. Kojima has talked about the game being an experiment. Raiden was meant to be someone that was actually more relatable to the player than Snake. He has a family, he's nowhere near as skilled a Snake, doesn't like/want to kill and doesn't particular want to be in the situation he's in. So, how would players react when they were faced with someone that's more like them than a trained killer like Snake? Well, we've seen how they'd react. They didn't like that character until he was turned into a trained killer as well.

Of course that's just a small part of it. But it's actually a pretty damn well thought out game and story.

 

[AniHawk]

And Nathan is a treasure hunter because hell, that's what he wants to do. You could be a historian and chase artifacts around the world if you put your mind to it, also!

Drake spent years being taught by Sully. He isn't doing this randomly. Before Sully's intervention, he was already pretty well learned.

Elena's application of journalism is spotty at best and hilariously unrealistic, like those movies that view the world of writing as some sort of glamorous, exciting, dangerous gig.

elena's profession fits in so much more closely with indiana jones. indiana jones is a superhero. professor by day, globe-trotting treasure hunter by night. drake is just the globe-trotting treasure hunter. if you were to compare the two in the realm of superheroes, elena is spider-man, and drake is superman.

i don't care, at all, that drake was taught by some other guy who also was a treasure hunter. i can't relate to that. i know of no one who has ever done it, and i don't know how you can enter that in a realistic way without something to ground it. it just floats there. oh, elena's a journalist. got it, she puts herself in dangerous situations for fairly noble purposes. that's cool. drake is some weird thing that a crazy person would be, and does it for pretty selfish reasons. then he gets all pissy and vengeful when he gets put in jail for being a professional thief.

Nathan doesn't shoot people for no reason. This is a common argument, and it's easily solved by playing the game.

Drake goes hunting for treasure
Drake finds treasure
Mercs shoot at Drake

What should Drake do in response? Talk it out over some tea? The fantasy of Indy is the hunt for the treasure, and his ridiculous luck. We can be Indy, but we can't be, because we aren't in a movie, and that's kinda what Uncharted aims for.

again, drake puts himself in these situations for pretty selfish reasons. elena's after lazer vick because she is trying to expose his atrocities to the world. drake is only kinda/sorta after the dude because nega drake betrayed him. there's a disconnect between the player and drake, and then there's a further disconnect between drake and his motivations. finally, there's a disconnect between his personality and his actions. if anything, nathan drake would make a pretty fascinating villain. a guy obsessed with treasure, spurred on by the slightest perceived injustice, yet with the quips of peter parker and the body count of rambo.

And in general, Drake has a shitty yet valid reason for what he does against his rivals - he's obsessed. That's the whole point of 3. That game served to call him out on his shit, his personality flaw. He's not suppose to perfect or have some sort of vendetta against the boss. That's what makes him different, and makes Elena or anyone else in the game not the right protagonist.

He's just obsessed with treasure and it takes a few games to get over that.

i will hazard a guess that this was more or less naughty dog trying to correct how bizarrely written the character is more than anything.

 

[Rozart]

Egotistical and obsessive are better at describing him.

And what about Elena is any closer to reality beyond not having an obsessive personality? She survived being shot at with very minimal training (if any, IIRC), keeps a pretty level head during some outright ridiculous situations, and somehow ends up as a badass who can take care of her self without any explanation in a dangerous area.

It's just "action-movie" syndrome, and that's not necessarily a bad thing at all - it's enjoyable as fuck to watch them react to things in a nonchalant manner. But that applies to every character in that game since that's what they were going for.

Exactly. That's the style of the genre of game that they're going for. And the cast that they've created goes well with the atmosphere that they want to emulate-- fun, light, over-the-top, popcorn- munching action flicks. A rather simplistic comparison but-- think more Avengers and less The Dark Knight.

 

[Dark Octave]

You would not believe how badly I wanted to have adult Dajh and cool old man Sazh as party members when the trailers for XIII-2 came out and they showed adult Hope, and in the final game all of the supporting cast was basically ignored. So much potential lost because the writers had no cohesive vision (although I enjoyed the game)

You can't have more than one black character in a Japanese developed game. RE5 broke that rule when they had no choice and set the game in Africa. That was rectified in RE6 with six white main characters and no black people in the entire game (that I can remember).

FFXIII was pushing it with one and a half black people in the world.

I'm half kidding but there is truth to what I'm saying.

Sad to hear no grown up Sazh's son. I'm probably gonna play XIII-2 soon cause I got it for $6 on XBL a while back.

 

[encephalon]

FFXII hardly pays attention to Vaan in the first place; there's no reason to believe placing Basch or Balthier at the protagonist's spot at the table would somehow reorient the aimless storytelling. It would just give more charming or popular leads to a storyline driven by Ashe that ultimately goes nowhere.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

You can't have more than one black character in a Japanese developed game. RE5 broke that rule when they had no choice and set the game in Africa. That was rectified in RE6 with six white main characters and no black people in the entire game (that I can remember).

FFXIII was pushing it with one and a half black people in the world.

I'm half kidding but there is truth to what I'm saying.

Sad to hear no grown up Sazh's son. I'm probably gonna play XIII-2 soon cause I got it for $6 on XBL a while back.

That's a funny way to put it but I agree that there is some truth there.

I think they are added to be an exotic contrast to the other characters who typically all share similar characteristics. The part about them being the only one on the planet is also something I can't really think of any games that count as counter examples against.

I'm sure they exist but I'm guessing that they are the exception instead of the rule.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

I just want to hear her voice again. Sexiest voice ever.

Are you kidding? She sounded to me like she had terrible congestion, or down syndrome.

I do agree that Basch deserved a spot as the main character in FFXII.

Raiden was a fantastic lead character, and made MGS2 the masterpiece that it is. That said, I really wouldn't mind a short pseudo-game (Ground Zeroes style) where you play as Snake before and during the Plant chapter. Aside from the one period of time where he's knocked out, which could easily be made up for by adding in gameplay during the time that Raiden is knocked out and brought to Arsenal Gear, he explores an entirely different area and is generally doing important stuff the entire time.

 

[grosvenor_92]

Tomb Raider (2013) - Looking back on the game Lara is turned into way too much of a killing machine. Hopefully a sequel will tone down the killing and include more tombs that aren't just optional

 

[Riposte]

Funny people are dying to play as the useless sidekicks who only matter in cutscenes. Clearly the future of videogames is watching people do stuff.

 

[Wyndstryker]

Swap every Mario game with Luigi and vice versa. And swap Peach with Daisy while we're at it.

 

[khaaan]

FFXII shoulda been all Balthier

Let's start with another obvious example. Basch of FF12.

FF12, Panelo should of been lead.

I actually would have liked Ashe as a main character. I used her as a secondary party leader.

I just wanted a Fran-centric FFXII game

See! People can't agree on anything but they all hate Vaan, it's the perfect compromise!

 

[Atraveller]

Assassins Creed 3, wish the entire game could have been Haytham. Conor was a terrible lead character

But then the game would be called Templar Creed.

 

[Sub Zero]

Nico Collard should have been the protagonist in the first Broken Sword. She had a lot more reasons to get involved in the plot than Stobbart. Also it didn't help that they made Stobbart annoying and dumb

 

[Toxi]

Funny people are dying to play as the useless sidekicks who only matter in cutscenes. Clearly the future of videogames is watching people do stuff.

I'd prefer playing as Elizabeth without an AI partner and being able to shoot and use powers than just shoot as Booker and watching and waiting for Elizabeth to use her powers.

Or play as Booker with powers and ditch Elizabeth instead, but nobody likes Booker anyways.

 

[ahuffman]

Assassins Creed 3 should have been Haytham, no doubt about it. Connor sucked.

 

[KJRS_1993]

If this rumour kicking about that the next Assassins Creed game is set in France / England is true, then surely that does mean there's a chance Haytham will be the next protagonist?

Also, loved Raiden, but MGS storyline is bullshit made up on the fly. Don't lose sleep trying to make sense where there is none.

 

[Anteater]

I think the other characters like Roxas and Riku would've been more interesting than Sora's adventure of looking for riku/mickey in kingdom hearts 2, considering what they went through and how much Sora's story composed of telling you about the story of those guys.

 

[HK-47]

Acted like a woman
Looked like a woman
Sounded like a woman

Should have been a woman.

Woah. This all sorts of messed up

 

[HK-47]

she's an investigative journalist. that's a job pretty much anyone can have if they work for it (like, go to college). it's closer to indiana jones than nathan drake is. the fantasy of indiana jones isn't that he's a treasure hunter. he's a professor. he could be you or me.

we meet up with elena in uncharted 2 because she's actually after lazer vick. like her goal is to find the dude. her level of investment with the antagonist of the game is way higher than drake's until near the very end of the game when neil druckmann foolishly tried to fridge her.

nathan drake's just a guy who kills a bunch of people because some dude framed him for doing what he does (steal things).

He is a professor that regularly goes on globe trotting treasure quests and gets onto wacky situations with nazis and magical priests. There is nothing Everyman about him

 

[davepoobond]

Super Mario world


Should have been bowser

 

[Banzai]

FF8:Laguna>Squall. The game would have needed a completely different story, but I'm fine with that.

 

[Kevtones]

Feel like Dark Souls could benefit from a lead character, actually. Maybe?
Reyn in Xenoblade is too archetypal.
Knack should've been a documentary about Mark Cerny.

 

[AniHawk]

He is a professor that regularly goes on globe trotting treasure quests and gets onto wacky situations with nazis and magical priests. There is nothing Everyman about him

maybe 'everyman' wasn't the perfect term, but the guy exists to fulfills the fantasy better than drake. he doesn't live totally in that fantasy, but he slips away and into it. that's the part that makes it exciting. we know that he's human. nathan drake is a baby from some exploding planet for all i know.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Your player character should've been the main character of the White Knight Chronicles games instead of just a blank avatar there to watch Leonard and the other cast members bore you.

This is the #1 reason why I quit WKC in less than an hour.
Reasons #2-10000 were because the game was crap.

Yeah I understand it's difficult to write a character-centric story for what is essentially an MMO, but don't just give up and force the player to play bag holder to the least interesting JRPG cast since Secret of the Stars.

I don't understand the Fran-stanning. At least I can relate to Vaan/Penelo. Fran could just fuck off to her fantasy bunny city in the middle of a nowhere forest if shit truly hit the fan. The kids have nowhere to go once the war boils over. Plus Vaan has the um..adventurous spirit, and uh..eh I don't think he's particularly great either. But at least I can easily look past him and pay attention to what the important people are doing. It's kinda difficult to ignore an 6 foot tall rabbit girl in an armor bikini and heels acting like a main character.

 

[Zekes!]

In regards to hating on Penelo, I remember reading years back that one of the devs had said that Penelo was his favourite character in FFXII and that she had a lot of her character development cut from the game.

I haven't played FFXII in a long time, but I remember Vaan, while somewhat annoying early on, being rather competent and calling a few people out on their shit (Ashe at one point, and the leader of Fran's village?). Shit, I should really go back and play FFXII again.

 

[voltronbadA]

I'd like to toss in a game not mentioned yet -

Kirby's Epic Yarn

I understand why Nintendo threw Kirby in (name recognition, sell more copies) but honestly, they stripped Kirby of his most important ability (copying enemies) and gave him the same moveset as Prince Fluff. Should've had the guts to create new IP's instead of just shoe-horsing in all their already established ones.

 

[unapersson]

Well the obvious answer is Sully in Uncharted.

So you watch Drake jump about like a monkey and then casually stroll through the doors he's opened for you?

 

[Alienous]

Splinter Cell Blacklist.

Ironside should've remained as Fisher, as the voice in your ear. Eric Johnson should have played a new operative.