So slightly than an entire gameplay mechanic is no longer what they said it was. Yep, slight.
#DarkSoulsDowngrade and #YOULIED \\ a.k.a You got some splainin' to do, Namco
- Thread starter Havel
- Start date
So slightly than an entire gameplay mechanic is no longer what they said it was. Yep, slight.
benicillin
Banned
I don't know if I'd say the current lighting mechanic is entirely pointless, as I've popped my torch quite a few times to help me see in dark areas, and regularly light torches when I can. It does help, it's just not always worth losing a shield. It also came in handy in No Man's Wharf, what with the thin walkways and enemies that are afraid of the light. I can see why people are upset, but I'm still really enjoying the game and think it looks pretty good all considering.
EDIT: I'd also like to point out the importance in setting your gamma correctly, since quite a few screenshots I've seen seem like the upped it a bit too much. Many areas I've played through look much darker and less washed out than some, not all screenshots/comparisons I've seen posted.
EDIT: I'd also like to point out the importance in setting your gamma correctly, since quite a few screenshots I've seen seem like the upped it a bit too much. Many areas I've played through look much darker and less washed out than some, not all screenshots/comparisons I've seen posted.
Its not really 'just some lighting.'
I think most people are annoyed because just a few weeks ago we had people playing a version of the game that looked amazing and people thought that is what they would receive at launch. What they got was very different, so of course people are going to wonder what happened.
Its like watching all the trailers and build up for an amazing movie and when you go to see it its the same film but all done with sock-puppets. Technically it does the same thing but its just not what you were lead to believe it was. Sure you may still enjoy it and it may be the best film ever but part of you still wanted to see what it was supposed to be.
DrROBschiz
Member
It was the lead platform and likely where all the reveal content came from
They demoed the game on PS3 kiosks with that same lighting engine and PS3 button layout. You can argue that it was still PC footage, but that still shows the deception at work.
They showed footage of the fancy lighting and all of that jazz literally two months ago. You see, if this was a 6+ month game and the downgrade happened, sure. But in 2014 they showed all of the fancy stuff they've been showing, and only two months later they released the game with none of it in there. Perhaps you can see why people got pretty annoyed.
I'm fine for downgrades, but I am not fine that they showed the game in January with all of this on PS3, and the final game has none of it. Two months to scrap all of that?
That is the reason I am so interested in this movement, I want to get some information on the PC version. It would be a shame if all of those graphical options are completely lost.
I will tell you that Namco showed those same effects running on PS3, but you will have to take their word for it.
#POSTINAVIDEOGAMEFORUM
zephervack
Member
Oh please, pubs/dev do it because they need to build hype around a product, simple as that, they are not doing us a favor.
And no one ever expected Dark Souls to be a graphical showcase, the expectation was set when they decided to promote the game using something they clearly knew was not indicative of the final product.
legacyzero
Banned
You don't think they possibly pulled all this stuff out; the awesome lighting, the awesome textures, the awesome geometry, just to use it for a new gen release?
Something just irks me about it. Look at the differences with Tomb Raider, and how much of a difference the Definitive Edition made on that game. Great lighting, fucking tree's blowing in the wind, etc.
And if they did decide to move Dark Souls 2 onto new gen platforms, these are enhancements that I would expect from one old console to the new ones. And PC damn sure better have more bells and whistles because didn't they say that it would?
Something just irks me about it. Look at the differences with Tomb Raider, and how much of a difference the Definitive Edition made on that game. Great lighting, fucking tree's blowing in the wind, etc.
And if they did decide to move Dark Souls 2 onto new gen platforms, these are enhancements that I would expect from one old console to the new ones. And PC damn sure better have more bells and whistles because didn't they say that it would?
Raven77
Member
No.
It was not for optimization reasons. People played the game, running on the PS3, with the increased amount of objects, geometry, lighting, etc. and it ran the same as the current retail version.
Stone Ocean
Member
Because the reveal graphics were shown running like that on PS3s multiple times up to 2 months ago? Yeah, we kinda have a reason to expect it to look like that.
We also had a beta which had significantly better graphics than retail.
The screenshots shown from the PC version do not look even remotely like that. And yet a trailer with those graphics is on the Steam storefront.
Trade shows from a year ago aren't the same as the retail versions, things get added things get removed. It's the nature of game development; some things change because they don't work at all times, there are certain bugs that can't be fixed in time for release etc. As mclem put it:
People also seem to forget Trade Show Builds are different from the actual development branch by nature because you can't just take a certain area of an unfinished game to show and instead have to "hack" your way through fast to get a presentable version of a possible game coming the next year or two.
It's disappointing,it's not fair, but when you're forced to make drastic changes late in the development for whatever reasons (performance,stability, conflicts etc.) very, very late in the development things like this happen. The marketing material is usually done months in advance so they can't just not show anything about the game (there's no way anyone would say that the game won't end up looking as good as we hoped and showed, that's just stupid business), the material they had to change usually ends up quite crappy having been done in such a short time etc (when you look up at the changes they've done it all seems like done in miniscule amount of time, FROM could have easily come up with better looking environments in the development time, but they all look like done after a huge hurry to fix errors in the game).
I'm willing to eat crow if it's all proven to be a completely promotional build and marketing materials willingly taken only from that, but until that I'm willing to give FROM the benefit of doubt in this matter because this is game development after all, this is not unusual at all, they just had it really bad this late in the development.
That said, I do absolutely condemn all lack of communication in this matter, especially if we don't get at least some sort of answer to the underlying problems behind the downgrade and FROM's handling of the PC versions of Dark Souls (the original one). And I absolutely understand where most of the guys here are coming from, but to me it all just sounds like the realities of game development hitting the team really hard and the end result being like something done in matter of months.
EDIT: Also, marketing a game with misleading material is also wrong, but I have known a few cases where something that was cut after the material was done and they had to release the material because they couldn't afford not to. It also is too much of a common practice in the industry and rarely has any repercussions so it's not like this is the only case where it has happened (though there have been actions against it too, I remember Activions being sued for COD2 trailer or something). It's also very much visible in older games' material, for example Nintendo games commonly used screens from dev builds with things that were not possible in the game.
What else is it besides the lighting?
DrROBschiz
Member
I wonder if the downgrade was in response to the beta performance tests?
Did the PS3 beta really look like the reveal?
taku
Member
I don't know.. It seems to me that people are experiencing a fundamental issue regarding lack of communication and transparency more than the change itself (and with every right).
Do you honestly think the PC version will have completely different assets than the PS3 version? These two scenes show different assets, textures, I mean the whole freaking mood is different. I can see the PC version having higher res textures, but I don't think it will have a completely different look.
I hope I'm wrong, I hope they just scaled down the PS3 version and kept all these assets for the PC, but I doubt it.
Not so long ago they mentioned the engine was for Next-Gen as well. Could they have stripped it out so they can show off new Dark Souls 2? Other than the graphical effects, it would be largely the same content, so they could justify it by saying the 360/PS3 could not handle it.
The PC version will be very telling.
Just watch some videos. The lighting on its own was the big addition to add something new to Dark Souls.
If they did this, then that would be incredibly dishonest and probably breaches the UK's Advertising Standards Agency's code: "before distributing or submitting a marketing communication for publication, marketers must hold documentary evidence to prove all claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation" and that "no marketing communication should mislead, or be likely to mislead, by inaccuracy, ambiguity, exaggeration, omission or otherwise"
Are you comparing 360/PS3 to PS4/XBO versions of Tomb Raider?
Or PC to PS4/XBO?
Europeans actually have consumer rights.
zephervack
Member
My believe all along is that the reveal stuff was a specific version of the game which saw a LOT of tender love and care, since it was meant to impress Journos and build hype for the game.
The retail never looked like that and as a matter of fact might be a complete recreation from scratch of the reveal using different engines.
At this point he biggest hope is that at least the lightning of the TGS and January Demo remain in the PC version.
Stone Ocean
Member
Many textures. Art direction suffered horribly from lack of lighting. A whole gameplay mechanic went poof aside from a couple areas.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
It's amazing how many people not only defend this shit but attack those that are trying to improve the situation. Don't they realize this campaign works in their best interests? What a bunch of idiots.
By early you mean a month before release, right?
And for those saying "lol consoles", even Kameo, a 2005 game, has better tech and runs with far more stability than this.
By early you mean a month before release, right?
And for those saying "lol consoles", even Kameo, a 2005 game, has better tech and runs with far more stability than this.
Ok, for people saying that the lightning is gone because they had to balance the torch.
Forget about the torch and explain this:
Reveal
1. Amazing Lightning
2. Atmospheric shadows/Lightning reflected on the ground/walls/characters etc
3. Torches on walls and other details throughout
Retail
1. All stuff on the reveal completely gone or reduced (worse blur, smoke effects)
2. Weird green/grey hue everywhere
Im missing tons of stuff in the comparisons too, they are completely different
From Software:
I'm getting the PC version and expect it to look as good as the console version. Anyone who expects more may be be at risk of an NaCL overdose.
Would that really be worthwhile, knowing a Souls game is already in production on PS4? Or is that going to take a bit that they think a port of Dark Souls II will be a good holdover game? It would look pretty scummy, but pretty AAA of them to do...
No, the PS3 beta looked closer to the TGS build. The retail PS3 version still runs like crap, and has other graphical glitches which people have posted.
Yup, they ran out of ink. Namcon didn't fund the project properly, this game should have been Kickstarted.
TyrantGuardian
Member
Did they just accidentally print the wrong build of the game or something? Lmfao.
Maybe they were working on 2 versions at the same time. As much as they said there was no Next-Gen version, surely they would plan ahead right?
legacyzero
Banned
I only played the PC version.
TyrantGuardian
Member
Reading comprehension is tough, man.
What other explanation could there possibily be?
Unless they really are so incompetent that they sent an old build to be printed.
Also doesn't the 360 version run about 10fps better?
And isn't the lighting exactly the same in that version?
Jim Sterling and Retsupurae talk about the Dark Souls downgrade in the latest Retsutalk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_00sq7KCkno&t=4m30s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_00sq7KCkno&t=4m30s
So, after having played the game for about 10 hours now, I am pretty sure the TGS demo and the final game are the same as far as lighting goes. The lighting changes drastically when you light a torch. Everything outside the light radius gets darker and the torch light (and certain other light sources such as bonfires) still casts dynamic shadows. The place shown in the gifs basically looks like the TGS demo when you go down there with a lit torch.Ok so here is what we know so far.
3 Builds
Reveal April 2013 (probably on PC), exclusive IGN Demo
1. Complex geometry (look at border of the door).
2. More complex textures.
3. Awesome lightning.
4. Small attention to detail like the cobwebs in the tunnel.
5. Normal mapping on walls of tunnel
TGS Demo Sep 2013 (running on non-dev PS3)
1. Keeps awesome lightning.
2. Reduced geometry (border of the door much simpler)
3. Some details removed like the cobweb of the reveal.
4. Textures look simpler than reveal
5. Has better shadows than reveal??
Retail February 2014
1. Lightning gutted
2. Simpler geometry kept from TGS
3. Textures untouched from TGS
Has anyone thought that maybe they couldnt get the lightning to work on the Xbox 360 version, so they decided to remove it from both?
So at least there's that. But of course it's still a far cry from the first demos.
Stone Ocean
Member
Or reading at all. It's like people just hit last page and go BUH IT'S JUST THE LIGHTING
zephervack
Member
For people with Modern Browsers
Here is the comparison of the Dragon Mansion GIFs in HTML5 form @ 30fps with more colors than the GIFs
REVEAL = http://gfycat.com/CarefreeNewHornet
RETAIL = http://gfycat.com/FatalWhirlwindKissingbug
Here is the comparison of the Dragon Mansion GIFs in HTML5 form @ 30fps with more colors than the GIFs
REVEAL = http://gfycat.com/CarefreeNewHornet
RETAIL = http://gfycat.com/FatalWhirlwindKissingbug
I'm legitimately wondering if something like this happened - like they sent the wrong build of the game off to retail. I mean, really, that's the only thing i can think of at this point that would explain the differences between the retail release and the TGS build and beta.
Raven77
Member
Nope, people played the game running on PS3 from literally a month ago.
Bottom line, something inexplicable has happened here. I do have a theory:
MS or SONY paid for Next-Gen exclusivity and wanted the game to really stand out.
In order to make this happen, FROM removed some art assets, dumbed down the lighting, and replaced some of the textures with probably very early build placeholder textures. This would explain:
- the grossly repeated textures found in some areas
- the fact that the game looks WORSE than before yet RUNS POORLY (indicating they did not have time to optimize the game)
- the lack of communication
I'm likely wrong but it's fun to speculate
From some of the comparison shots it does look like they scraped entire textures for less performance intensive ones. Other's don't look so bad, like the lighting comparison shots with the torch.
What a weird issue that only becomes a problem for Namco and From Software because of the rabid fan following they've stumbled into.
What a weird issue that only becomes a problem for Namco and From Software because of the rabid fan following they've stumbled into.
Also this was back in 2006: http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/tv-ad-lies-face-ban/018876
Now any video game ad on UK media needs a disclaimer if there is anything that is not representative of the final game. Not everyone complies, though...
DrROBschiz
Member
The difference in this example are glaring to say the least jeebus
Stone Ocean
Member
Budget cuts? Incompetence? Game switching hands between teams?
It's not that hard to imagine reasons, man. And this whole thing is not because the game was downgraded per se, but why was it still being shown as the pretty version literally weeks ago.
gfycat is amazing. Wish more people would use it, and yeah that is pretty striking.
Nailed it.
because a lot of us know it's just another "super important" neogaf controversy that'll be forgotten in a week. except by the craziest loons who will be in the DLC thread trying to remind people about the massive deception that took place and saying we should all boycott, all because Namco never apologized.