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[ThatGayWolf]

Go get enraged at Burger King for what the Whooper looks like in their commercials and how it looks nothing like what you got when you went to their drivethru..

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=104350959&postcount=727

Because the game was near finished?

And the some of the Torch mechanics are still there. Im not sure what you are trying to say here

The torch mechanics are there, yes. And totally useless, for at least 95% (that's being generous) of the game. And only used a few times and in one gimmicky boss fight to make it necessary to proceed.

 

[mclem]

Even if so, a response would be fair. I appreciate sincerity. If they came out and said "well, we had to pull back on some of this stuff due to (insert reasons here)" I'd be absolutely content. Nobody here is saying the game is bad, but that this sudden change deserves a response.

Playing ghost about it does nobody any fucking favors, and to me, this is the issue. This information is only being raised by consumers, not the developer or publisher.

I don't think you'd get anything much distinct from the expected "Stuff changes in development, this changed at the last minute". Even if that's not actually *true*, I think that's still the content of the response you'd get.

Is anyone here who's protesting this expecting any response different to that?

I suspect that people don't feel they want an explanation, I think people really want an apology - at least in the form of acknowledging the issue - and I suspect that's something that needs to be passed through a legal department to ensure there's nothing in the statement that would sound like an admission of something more untoward than natural development processes.

 

[nbthedude]

Now you're just being silly. Your analogy would only work if I ordered a Whopper, but when they went to make the meal they were out of salad and pickles, so they delivered me a cheeseburger with mayo without telling me anything until it was ready to pick up. It would still be delicious, but that's not what I fucking ordered.

No that would be if From gave you a FPS game instead of Dark Souls. Dark Souls 2 is still the same game. It just doesn't have all the pretty lighting. Sure you can argue it impacts the gameplay experience. So do the aesthetics of food impact your enjoyment of them.

 

[Violater]

60 FPS/1080p Dark Souls II trailer of the TGS demo: http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_dark_souls_ii_tgs_trailer-30829_en.html

To answer your question, yes, developers generally use the PC version to showcase their game.
For example, at E3 2013 both the Division and Titanfall were showcasing their games on PCs with console controller inputs on screen.

There was backlash in those cases as well, as for the Division I think no one here should ever believe Ubisoft again.

Say what you want about Ground Zeroes being a demo, but Kojima should be applauded for what he did in the reveal of the platform differences.

 

[dreamfall]

I'd like to see the PC footage and see how it compares to some of those older demo builds.

 

[Moral Panic]

#WAITUNTILTHEGAMECOMESOUTANDREADTHEREVIEWSBEFOREYOUBUYTHEGAME

But the reviews didn't point out that the visuals were butchered.

 

[Adaren]

how else were you able to make the comparison then? were you not under the impression someone was showing you a different game, or at the least, a different area in the same game?

Not sure if you're actually serious, but he can obviously make the comparison since both are from DS2 and he's well aware of this. If someone told him they were different and removed the UI/characters, he might very well believe them.

Like I said earlier I imagine the marketing would revolve around the best looking version of the game (PC) since its a cross gen game though it is jarring considering the large delay between Console and PC

If the PC version looks like this, then they should say it.

 

[MormaPope]

Say what you want about Ground Zeroes being a demo, but Kojima should be applauded for what he did in the reveal of the platform differences.

Yup.

 

[DrROBschiz]

I agree with everything you said here except what I italicized. I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Im just not sure why anyone thought the PS3/360 versions would not be the compromising versions

Ive been following the game and I certainly didn't feel duped or misinformed. I knew from the get go that the PC version was the lead platform and that it was going to be drastically different from the old consoles.

The only reason I pulled the trigger was because I just couldnt wait to play.

 

[nbthedude]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=104350959&postcount=727

Yeah I think you just proved my argument actually.

You said people dont' order the Whooper because of what it looks like, they order it because they want a burger and like the taste.

And people buy Dark Souls because they like the gameplay taste of Dark Souls. It woudl be nice if the burger/game looked exactly like the ad, but that's not why you bought it.

At least, I'm pretty sure that why nobody bought it. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here. I'd like to actually talk to the person who bought Dark Souls 2 specifically because they thought the lighting looked amazing and not cause they wanted to play more Dark Souls.

 

[mclem]

Judging by some of the responses here, some people probably wouldn't mind if developers released CGI footage and claimed it as actual gameplay until release.

?

 

[legacyzero]

60 FPS/1080p Dark Souls II trailer of the TGS demo: http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_dark_souls_ii_tgs_trailer-30829_en.html

To answer your question, yes, developers generally use the PC version to showcase their game.
For example, at E3 2013 both the Division and Titanfall were showcasing their games on PCs with console controller inputs on screen.

THAT is the game I want. DAMN that looks good!

 

[marrec]

Hm well it's not as much that's it's still in the game but that there are whole areas where the torch mechanic would've clearly been required or at least would have helped out a great deal while it has now lost all of its usefulness. I don't know if there still are areas left where this isn't the case but this is very noticeable in the tutorial area of all things. It would've introduced a great horror game like feel which was one of the things that I think would've really set it apart from its predecessor. That's what I was really looking forward to y'know?

I'd hope it would count here in Europe what with the required disclaimers nowadays but it'd be interesting to see for sure.

I'm definitely sympathetic to those who were hoping that the game was going to be a more atmospheric experience given the mechanics described.

We usually don't see things as drastic as this though do we? Plus changes from pre-release to release may be standard, as they should be, but I really think that something like this should be made clear to us before the release. It's not a change, it's a cut. One where the cut content is still being advertised at that. I do think that this was done with malicious intent by Namco but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Again, the advertising is a completely different arm within Namco that is more than likely unaware of the changes that were made to the finished game and can't be asked to go in and update their finished package without corporate say so.

Yes, I do believe we've seen this type of drastic change before, specifically during the 16 bit era when games would change drastically between playable released beta builds. Of course, advertising and games journalism wasn't as crossbred as it is now and so the "vertical slice" style of preview focused ad/article wasn't as prevalent.

From what I gather the beta had the same geometry and textures as the final build has but with the fancy lightning, which would be something I doubt many people would complain about if it was like this in the released game. Now it was limited to certain areas however so for all we know would have ran way worse in other spots. GamingIsDead's post certainly points out that people had issues with the beta.

That's what I'm curious about. What kind of areas did the beta encompass compared to the press version that has been brought up, and what were the differences between those (if any).

 

[mave198]

But the reviews didn't point out that the visuals were butchered.

Some reviews did mention the lighting was not great in the game. My post was more for those who preorder based on a beta build months before the final release.

I'm guessing the visuals did take a hit to make the framerate more stable since DS1 had some issues with that.

 

[Grief.exe]

There was backlash in those cases as well, as for the Division I think no one here should ever believe Ubisoft again.

Say what you want about Ground Zeroes being a demo, but Kojima should be applauded for what he did in the reveal of the platform differences.

Agreed.

I'd like to see the PC footage and see how it compares to some of those older demo builds.

Honestly, a PC version with all of these graphical features back in the game would explain everything.

• Delaying the PC release 6 weeks as From finalized the graphical features that didn't make the console version.
• Not showing any footage or information during that time period
• The immediate downgrade in visuals between trade shows in January and console footage in February
• 60 FPS/1080p trailers/demos with all of the effects in place

Its also the best possible scenario for people to double dip on the game and generate more profits for Bandai.

 

[Totobeni]

But the reviews didn't point out that the visuals were butchered.

When you get "journalists" defending the downgrade they like these two

then ofcourse most reviews/reviewers wont even mention it because they treat From and the series as sacred thing sadly instead of doing their job. and because of that gaming journalism is crap for the most part.

 

[mclem]

Again. You seemingly don't understand. We simply wanted what they showed us all the time prior to release.

We were promised this:

What we got is this:

And you and other apologists tell us we should accept this crap.

I think a key difference is that I never felt like I was promised that. Now, that may just be me having an overactive bullshit filter (I don't think I commented on the first reveals of Dark Souls, but I had very similar comments to make about Deep Down).

 

[Kieli]

Like I said earlier I imagine the marketing would revolve around the best looking version of the game (PC) since its a cross gen game though it is jarring considering the large delay between Console and PC

Absolutely. I'm not arguing that marketing will not do what it takes to shine a piece of turd into what looks like a bar of gold(en turd). It's what they're paid to do.

I'm not referring to Dark Souls II, by the way. To be honest, I think the game looks pretty good (notwithstanding the fact that it could have looked even better, as the pre-release footage suggests). Its artstyle is a downgrade, for me personally, though. I can't really stand the weird psuedo-CG-ish look the engine outputs.

But yeah. I'm not surprised with shenanigans such as 47 Ronin marketing (featuring a character with 10 nanoseconds of screen-time prominently in posters; 2 minute trailers that contain all the action of the 2 hour movie, :lol).

Though just because everyone does it doesn't make it ok. I don't get why people have to bring up what Burger King and all the other fast-food chains do (also, did you know that fastfood restaurants aren't litigated for false-advertising because apparently they provide products whose quality can be easily assessed relative to the advertising? It probably also doesn't help that the companies are big, rich, and powerful; or that people just don't care enough to bother with the fight). Does that somehow excuse FromSoft? If not, then why bring it up?

 

[Adaren]

At least, I'm pretty sure that why nobody bought it. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here. I'd like to actually talk to the person who bought Dark Souls 2 specifically because they thought the lighting looked amazing and not cause they wanted to play more Dark Souls.

I want to play more Dark Souls as well. I want to be immersed in a world without being distracted by huge graphical discrepancies. I want to find my way through the darkness with a torch.

If the issue was something like aliasing, I'd be much less bothered.

 

[nbthedude]

I'm definitely sympathetic to those who were hoping that the game was going to be a more atmospheric experience given the mechanics described.



Again, the advertising is a completely different arm within Namco that is more than likely unaware of the changes that were made to the finished game and can't be asked to go in and update their finished package without corporate say so.

Yes, I do believe we've seen this type of drastic change before, specifically during the 16 bit era when games would change drastically between playable released beta builds. Of course, advertising and games journalism wasn't as crossbred as it is now and so the "vertical slice" style of preview focused ad/article wasn't as prevalent.



That's what I'm curious about. What kind of areas did the beta encompass compared to the press version that has been brought up, and what were the differences between those (if any).

Actually the new South Park game is a good example. There is a ton of stuff in the preview material, even mechanics, that aren't in the final game. Bioshock Infinite, too, had a ton of stuff not in the final game.

 

[marrec]

I agree with everything you said here except what I italicized. I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

I mean, why would they maliciously refuse to change the advertising when the consumers who're mostly likely to see through their ruse would be the only ones seeing that advertising?

The majority of those who consume Dark Souls II will be unaware of the changes in the game even if the still shots on the back of the box are as different as the GIFs in this thread because they aren't as discerning as the people who're posting on this forum.

I don't know if I explained that thought well enough still...

 

[paperspace]

There was backlash in those cases as well, as for the Division I think no one here should ever believe Ubisoft again.

Say what you want about Ground Zeroes being a demo, but Kojima should be applauded for what he did in the reveal of the platform differences.

What did he do?

 

[DrROBschiz]

I think a key difference is that I never felt like I was promised that. Now, that may just be me having an overactive bullshit filter (I don't think I commented on the first reveals of Dark Souls, but I had very similar comments to make about Deep Down).

I am dubious of the claims that we were promised this level of quality on the console versions

Maybe during testing thats what was shown but wasn't the fact that they were still in active development and testing EXPLICITLY stated?

I dont see a single shred anywhere that promised this. And I would instantly assume all advertising would be showcasing the best version of the game. As just about any Cross Gen title has done thus far

 

[OverBlood 3]

This thread is embarrassing. Why are people defending the downgrade? If it doesn't matter to them why come in this thread and shit on other people's efforts?


Hopefully some of this makes it's way to From and the best we can hope for is some improvements to the PC version.

 

[marrec]

This thread is embarrassing. Why are people defending the downgrade? If it doesn't matter to them why come in this thread and shit on other people's efforts?


Hopefully some of this makes it's way to From and the best we can hope for is some improvements to the PC version.

I'm actually educating myself on it so that I can include it in a write up I want to do on the vertical slice culture of advertising via preview articles. I'll gladly pick up the game on PC based on the changes I've read from Dark Souls I too Dark Souls II. Regardless of any graphical changes from preview builds to release.

 

[Kieli]

Yeah I think you just proved my argument actually.

You said people dont' order the Whooper because of what it looks like, they order it because they want a burger and like the taste.

And people buy Dark Souls because they like the gameplay taste of Dark Souls. It woudl be nice if the burger/game looked exactly like the ad, but that's not why you bought it.

At least, I'm pretty sure that why nobody bought it. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here. I'd like to actually talk to the person who bought Dark Souls 2 specifically because they thought the lighting looked amazing and not cause they wanted to play more Dark Souls.

Honestly, the lighting is not what bothers me (you are right).

Those animations, doe. Uuuuugh. They're not ice-skating anymore, but something seems off about them. Especially when you lock-on and begin strafing, your character's upper-body starts doing some weird floppy shit.

The character is also too big. Takes up too much of the screen. It's kinda funny playing Demon's Souls where the camera is so far back. I guess it allows them to render less stuff because you see less? Iunno.

I also don't like the nuke-explosions that occur whenever you smash a great-sword into the ground. It feels a bit too Call of Dudebro: Battlezone 2 - Return of the Ghosts Ops. When I tap a fork onto my table, I don't get pew-pew explosions. :'(

 

[nbthedude]

This thread is embarrassing. Why are people defending the downgrade? If it doesn't matter to them why come in this thread and shit on other people's efforts?


Hopefully some of this makes it's way to From and the best we can hope for is some improvements to the PC version.

I've already explained why for me. I'm interested in knowning the backstory of what happened. I'm less interested in the pitchfork circus that I think probably does nothing to help get to the bottom of the topic and frankly makes a lot of people look just silly.

 

[marrec]

I've already explained why for me. I'm interested in knowning the backstory of what happened. I'm less interested in the pitchfork circus that I think probably does nothing to help get to the bottom of the drama and frankly makes a lot of people look just silly.

Well... to be fair, if not for those willing to look silly this whole thing wouldn't be NEAR as interesting as it is.

 

[RudoIudo]

Reading again the edge interview. Kinda funny.


"The player and some enemies carry fiery torches with custom mobile lighting effects, and this in turn has given the team a merry excuse to create caves and other interior areas that are plunged wholly into darkness."

"Miyazoe insists this will be fixed at 30fps on PS3 and 360"

About dark areas complaints
“I don’t think that we’re going to make it any brighter, but we do understand that there are dark areas,”

 

[mclem]

Maybe during testing thats what was shown but wasn't the fact that they were still in active development and testing EXPLICITLY stated?

Actually, what are the advertising laws like when in relation to a public showing of a (clearly, and demonstrably) incomplete product, anyway?

 

[Riddler]

You mean the Dark Intention dev diary?

There's old build footage right at the 5-min-ish mark. And it was released 2 weeks ago. See our point?

The part where armadillo guy smash the pillar? Besides the camera angle it looks like that in the game. Dynamic lighting and all.

I took a torch down there and lit up the standing fire stands and that area does look like that(with proper contrast and brightness set of course ). They took off the shine off the armadillo's armor in retail(of course armor shines on other enemies just a design change)

Of course if you don't use a torch and don't light the torch stands the area is still playable and everything looks washed out.

They did use the Vertical Slice/Beta video to promote the game a little too long but those final trailers show the game.

 

[Adaren]

This thread is embarrassing. Why are people defending the downgrade? If it doesn't matter to them why come in this thread and shit on other people's efforts?

Maybe #YouLied is too subtle and they're misunderstanding the campaign's tones/goals.

 

[mclem]

Can someone with the console version tell me if the Sunshafts are there

As I do love to point out whenever these things appear (and they seem so prevalent lately!): I implemented the same basic effect on Sniper Elite on the Xbox 1.

 

[Moral Panic]

except that they are still using screenshots from that build to advertise the shipping product

Exactly. I don't know why people find this so hard to understand. FROM and Namco lied. That is a wrong thing (isn't it?). We want to know why gameplay was being shown and people were being told it was PS3 footage, when it is looking clear that it was not. We want to know whether the PC version will carry on these lies, or whether it will actually look as advertised.

I bought DeSouls and DaSouls day 1, when they were available in my country. I like the Souls series but I hdespise being lied to and treated like a fool. I don't think it is right to allow such a blatant bait and switch.

Forget about E3 last year, we have footage from 2 MONTHS AGO, that claims it is "direct capture footage from the PS3 version".

 

[nbthedude]

Maybe #YouLied is too subtle and they're misunderstanding the campaign's tones/goals.

I don't know about the tone of the campaign but you have a lot of people talking about this an example of corporate sodomy. It's like the Howard Beale show in here.

 

[marrec]

Forget about E3 last year, we have footage from 2 MONTHS AGO, that claims it is "direct capture footage from the PS3 version".

Who claimed that? Do we have a source? I'd like to see if it's a possibility that it was just someone who didn't know that it wasn't from PS3.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Who claimed that? Do we have a source? I'd like to see if it's a possibility that it was just someone who didn't know that it wasn't from PS3.

Seriously

Source your damn claims guys

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Because the game was near finished?

And the some of the Torch mechanics are still there. Im not sure what you are trying to say here

That removing the lighting in such an unceremonious manner has a negative effect on the game because everything else related to the mechanic is still present front and center.

This is the kind of change that games get delayed over, honestly. If they had had more time, they probably would have changed many of the issues people are pointing out like the enemy placement, prominent torches/sconces, and visible areas that clearly weren't meant to be seen.

 

[marrec]

Seriously

Source your damn claims guys

Right, not to suggest that Moral Panic is lying or anything, but if I bring up the fact that it was running direct feed from PS3 in conversation then I'd like to be able to speak intelligently on who claimed that instead of saying 'GAF said...'

 

[TharpDaddy]

When you get "journalists" defending the downgrade they like these two

then ofcourse most reviews/reviewers wont even mention it because they treat From and the series as sacred thing sadly instead of doing their job. and because of that gaming journalism is crap for the most part.

I don't think it's fair to blame those two, though. They likely have not read on this topic very much, and don't understand the situation that everyone in this thread is discussing. Single tweets directed at them doesn't help them understand the complaints, discussion, etc. and instead they might be responding to what they think people are talking about, rather than what they actually are talking about. It's very possible i'm wrong, but i don't think we should attack someone's journalistic integrity based on a tweet that could very easily be a lack of understanding.

 

[DrROBschiz]

That removing the lighting in such an unceremonious manner has a negative effect on the game because everything else related to the mechanic is still present front and center.

This is the kind of change that games get delayed over, honestly. If they had had more time, they probably would have changed many of the issues people are pointing out like the enemy placement, prominent torches/sconces, and visible areas that clearly weren't meant to be seen.

Well even the original Dark Souls had significant update patches

Though nothing as large as updating the lighting setups.

 

[Haunted]

By the way and just to make this clear, if the PC version retains the environments, assets and advanced lighting of the reveal trailers, I'm totally happy with From.

#fucklastgen

 

[atr0cious]

Right, not to suggest that Moral Panic is lying or anything, but if I bring up the fact that it was running direct feed from PS3 in conversation then I'd like to be able to speak intelligently on who claimed that instead of saying 'GAF said...'

Please don't write anything if you can't even do your own research.

 

[Wensih]

This thread is embarrassing. Why are people defending the downgrade? If it doesn't matter to them why come in this thread and shit on other people's efforts?


Hopefully some of this makes it's way to From and the best we can hope for is some improvements to the PC version.

I'm not defending the downgrade or anything, but I think it's silly for people to raise up pitchforks for a couple hours and then for the next couple hours frolic through Dark Souls II loving the crap out of it.

This whole tirade about 'downgrades' that has caught on over the past couple weeks is just like any fad. It becomes annoying after the entire forum becomes composed of it. It's basically the new 'this journalist made an article about sexism in games let's laugh at them.'

It's not the first time an advertisement has shown you the ideal which is why I posted the Whopper picture. Sure, people might like the taste, but for people who never go to burger king and see the ideal advertised on tv it's the same exact scenario. It's weird how someone will say touched up images are bad for adverts in one scenario, but not the other, especially if you're outraged by Dark Souls II not being what was advertised. If you want to complain about adverts you might as well attack all of them.

I think there are bigger issues to waste my time on than attacking a game that I am satisfied with.

 

[Joqu]

Again, the advertising is a completely different arm within Namco that is more than likely unaware of the changes that were made to the finished game and can't be asked to go in and update their finished package without corporate say so.

Yes, I do believe we've seen this type of drastic change before, specifically during the 16 bit era when games would change drastically between playable released beta builds. Of course, advertising and games journalism wasn't as crossbred as it is now and so the "vertical slice" style of preview focused ad/article wasn't as prevalent.

I mean, why would they maliciously refuse to change the advertising when the consumers who're mostly likely to see through their ruse would be the only ones seeing that advertising?

The majority of those who consume Dark Souls II will be unaware of the changes in the game even if the still shots on the back of the box are as different as the GIFs in this thread because they aren't as discerning as the people who're posting on this forum.

I don't know if I explained that thought well enough still...

Hm I'd say that they did it exactly because the majority of their consumers wouldn't notice the changes once they had bought their copy. I mean, there are still plenty of people on GAF who don't mind the changes even. But you know, I'd think that the advertising arm of Namco would be aware of these changes. Is it wrong of me to have that expectation?

Who knows, maybe you're right and I'm just jaded.

That's what I'm curious about. What kind of areas did the beta encompass compared to the press version that has been brought up, and what were the differences between those (if any).

I'm afraid I wasn't able to play the beta so someone else will have to answer this.

 

[legacyzero]

By the way and just to make this clear, if the PC version retains the environments, assets and advanced lighting of the reveal trailers, I'm totally happy with From.

#fucklastgen

Agreed. I will happily pay in full for the PC version if it still has a lot of those visuals.

 

[DrROBschiz]

By the way and just to make this clear, if the PC version retains the environments, assets and advanced lighting of the reveal trailers, I'm totally happy with From.

#fucklastgen

Yeah

Aside from the compromises you would expect to have from being on last gen hardware... everything else seems to be perfectly fine

This is not colonial marines all over again. Thats hyperbole.

 

[The Lamp]

When you get "journalists" defending the downgrade they like these two

then ofcourse most reviews/reviewers wont even mention it because they treat From and the series as sacred thing sadly instead of doing their job. and because of that gaming journalism is crap for the most part.

#ihatethisindustry
#gamesjournalism

 

[marrec]

Please don't write anything if you can't even do your own research.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask about who claimed the game was running on a PS3 in a thread where people are continually citing that someone claimed the game was running on a PS3. I'm not accusing anyone of lying, just hoping that they had a source article handy.

 

[ClearData]

Question: Was there ever a Colonial Marines level promise? As in the gameplay was presented as representative of the final product? From what I've caught of the thread I'm not sure.