He's the one that made the mod. You should be kneeling to him right now.
#DarkSoulsDowngrade and #YOULIED \\ a.k.a You got some splainin' to do, Namco
- Thread starter Havel
- Start date
He's the one that made the mod. You should be kneeling to him right now.
they are still advertising the game as being something it's not
promotional screenshots being used right now are misrepresenting what people will get if they buy the currently available product
this is not a matter of cuts being made, although the circumstances surrounding the whole thing are frankly bizarre. it's a matter of false advertising happening RIGHT NOW.
imagine if sony used shots from the killzone 2 CGI trailer to sell the final retail game? or if EA used those early madden 360 bullshots on their release? it's the same thing here.
:lol
From this point onward, Marrec, you are never allowed to make an analogy for the rest of your life. Everytime you do so, Kieli will be right behind you saying, "I wasn't aware that ___ is a ____".
Analogies, how do they work?
I know you know that I know that you know what an analogy is.
It's something tasty. You can put in on your tongue and smack your lips. Get those taste buds a-tingling.
DrROBschiz
Member
Or maybe the Demos WERE the Ps3 versions and when it was released to the public for testing under strain the systems just couldn't hack it
I don't buy into them making these adjustments for any other reason than maintaining adequate performance. Even with the issues in the current build maybe that just because the current release is the best case scenario they could reach before launch.
The back of the box. And can you point me to where they talked about pulling features?
Remember when Nintendo showed tech demos for Zelda in every console?
The difference is that they told us they were tech demos, go read impressions of the Beta/Demos on Gaming sites, they all praised the graphics because they were led to believe by Namco's PR that it was indicative of real gameplay.
Also Nintendo released games that looked better than their tech demos.
John Rabbit
Banned
Remember when Nintendo showed tech demos for Zelda in every console?
The difference is that they told us they were tech demos, go read impressions of the Beta/Demos on Gaming sites, they all praised the graphics because they were led to believe by Namco's PR that it was indicative of real gameplay.
Nintendo only revealed it was a tech demo after they were pressed about it. In the show itself it wasn't given any context other than it being footage of the presumably next Zelda game. Since From Software revealed Dark Souls II from the start as an actual game, there wasn't any imperative to ask if the footage shown was a tech demo. That's not an excuse, but to pretend that Nintendo was up front about it whereas From was not is incorrect and highly selective.
Those two examples are very extreme and not near the lighting downgrade I've seen given the videos and GIFs.
The advertising material was probably finalized ages ago and won't be updated not out of some malicious attempt to mislead consumers, but simply because it's not drastically different enough to warrant a change? Unless you aren't assuming that it's malicious and this entire campaign is to stop FromSoft from being lazy.
A lot of people were reporting 'smooth' frame rate, and if you go back and watch the demo videos there was no obvious frame rate drops like if you go watch the retail version in the same areas.
Another piece of evidence? 60 FPS trailer was released around the same time with all the effects present as well.
I think this mess is not caused by Namco PR only. I think This filth and misleading is for most part From doing. The demo they let journalists play, the screenshots and video they kept showing from the "superior version" is all From doing and we got From producer talking and hyping their engine and lighting system. They are also the IP owner and the publisher in Japan.
I wasn't complaining about them. I find the topic itself interesting but all this drama you'd of think the President of the U.S. had killed someone and dumped bodies in the river.
It's a videogame that had earlier footage that doesn't look as good as the final release. Moreover, it's a very good game that has final footage that doesn't look as good as earlier stuff. It's not even like people got an end product that was a rip off and not worth the money the played. The shiny bits just aren't as shiny as people thought they would be. Videogames.
A tech demo is one thing. MGS4's tech demo looks vastly different than the final game. Many find issues that the footage they showed just over two months ago is almost in a different universe compared to the final game. Like I've said before, I am fine with changes, but that timeframe for this to happen, to me, is the big thing. We've had enough footage and demos supposedly on console hardware even recently that emphasize the contrast. In January, there were supposed demos of the mirror knight boss on PS3 that show all of the lighting jazz. Final game looks nothing like it. If this was a 6+ month difference between versions, I'd be fine with that. But showing off the game 2 months before release and this contrast happens?
Something is disingenuous here. It's one thing to look at an earlier build, sure, but something literally weeks from launch looking like a total buff in relation to the final copy? That warrants explanation from the publisher and/or developer, no? No beheadings, just a response as to why such a sudden change happened so suddenly from recent previews. And if there would be a reason, it is clearly performance. But I would like to understand, from them, why this is what it is.
ThatGayWolf
Member
At this point I don't know if people are being obtuse on purpose? All through interviews, From repeatedly stated that the new torch mechanic was going to be an integral part of gameplay, and pushed the amazing capabilities of their new lighting system (to make the torch gameplay possible) hard. Now it's released, and suddenly both are pointless, and mostly gone, respectively.
Krusenstern
Banned
PetriP-TNT
Member
You have some very selective memory then. Frame rate was even worse in the network test and it wasn't encompassing the whole game.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=87660523&postcount=1954
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85861429&postcount=724
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85810741&postcount=419
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85810381&postcount=413
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=89245882&postcount=2487
And you can thank this guy
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85879939&postcount=853
Storm Chamber
Banned
You'd think people would take the stick out long enough to realize #YOULIED is a joke.
I've been wrong before.
I've been wrong before.
the reason doesn't fucking matter in the slightest. they are advertising something different from what they are selling and whether or not they're doing it for technical reasons is so far beside the point that i'm starting to question your motives.
If someone showed me those pics and said they were from a different game, I would have believed them. Aside from the character, I would not have been able to recognize that place apart from the basic geometry.
Boy I remember these kinds of posts when people complained about DRM and no used games.
Fun times.
Analogies are a tricky thing. Trying to analogize graphical changes in a Video Game to a dealer selling a car is a ridiculous endeavor doomed to failure. I suppose if the analogy was:
"The pink fuzzy seat covers you saw on our showroom floor caused an irritating rash in some consumers so we changed back to the normal type." Though that's not even really the case because in this analogy the "car dealer" (FromSoft) isn't giving any explanation for the "seat cover changes" (graphical changes). See, analogies are hard.
DrROBschiz
Member
I still feel like this is weak evidence. Also can you link the 60 FPS trailer?
Also.... do trailers for multiplatform games typically showcase the best version or the weakest version?
Say the games comes to 360, XB1, and PC and the trailer is indicative of the PC version only. Is it wrong to not specify that or should it be conveyed properly.
I say this because we are in an era of quite a few cross gen titles ....
That's for the consumer to decide.
Unfortunately, only a vocal minority of even Gaf seems to think it's an issue. The vast majority of consumers won't even know, much less give a shit.
Also, I'm glad you still have the enthusiasm to think that publishers are something more than money-making enterprises run by corporate suits who don't give a rat's shit about video games and are only in it to collect a paycheck.
Edit: Let me clarify what I meant by "for the consumer to decide" before I get a snarky reply. I mean in the sense that even though marketing probably couldn't be assed to change the marketing materials to better reflect the actual product, whether the downgrade is significant and worth talking about is ultimately for the consumer to decide. I don't give a shit if the FromSoft says that Dark Souls II is the second coming of Jesus. That's for me to decide based on the footage (which I don't even know is real, anymore).
Sure, I'm not objecting to the topic or it's exploration of what went wrong. It's the whole "You Lied!" and "We shouldnt' have to bend over and take this shit!" and anger and bile directed at Namco and From stuff being screamed from the rooftops that seems absurd. It's a good videogame worth well worth $60 that simply isn't as shiny as people thought it would be.
DrROBschiz
Member
The torch mechanic change is likely related to feedback from players/staff over the course of development
I think you could easily see how there would be contention in this area of the game.
Stone Ocean
Member
You mean the Dark Intention dev diary?
There's old build footage right at the 5-min-ish mark. And it was released 2 weeks ago. See our point?
Krusenstern
Banned
How is this absurd?
John Rabbit
Banned
how else were you able to make the comparison then? were you not under the impression someone was showing you a different game, or at the least, a different area in the same game?
My motives? Do you think I work for FromSoft or something?
Eh, I can kind of see the connection... but this slippery slope is about 2 feet from the ground while the DRM slippery slope was significantly longer.
That's kind of my point. Why perpatrate a conspiracy to mislead consumers when the ones who're going to view the advertising material are the ones most likely to see the difference? Pubs being the corporate behemoths that they are, are much more likely to nail down the advertising for the game and then never ever again look at updating that advertising until the GOTY version comes out.
Oh and it's definitely up to you to decide what's forgivable, to you. Most people, as you said, won't notice the changes or give any shits about them.
DrROBschiz
Member
Like I said earlier I imagine the marketing would revolve around the best looking version of the game (PC) since its a cross gen game though it is jarring considering the large delay between Console and PC
He means the vanilla port. If not then I am stumped.
60 FPS/1080p Dark Souls II trailer of the TGS demo: http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_dark_souls_ii_tgs_trailer-30829_en.html
To answer your question, yes, developers generally use the PC version to showcase their game.
For example, at E3 2013 both the Division and Titanfall were showcasing their games on PCs with console controller inputs on screen.
Because nobody got ripped off here. The end product was well worth the price and is pretty universally acclaimed. I get it. People want to know what happened and why it doesn't look as shiny as it did in earlier builds. I'm interested in knowing that too. But this isn't some great consumer injustice. You didn't even get a mediocre or bad product. You got a very good one that just doesn't graphically look quite as good as you thought it would.
Go get enraged at Burger King for what the Whooper looks like in their commercials and how it looks nothing like what you got when you went to their drivethru..
I'm pretty sure Durante played the vanilla port. :-/
Moon_frogger
Member
Yet the game still looks better than ds 1 and has a better framerate. I don't feel outrage is justified. Using shadows in gameplay was as terrible idea anyway.
And as far as advertising well....they are advertising a sequel to dark souls and that's exactly what they're selling.
And as far as advertising well....they are advertising a sequel to dark souls and that's exactly what they're selling.
Krusenstern
Banned
I know but Narroo doesn't have to know about Durante to talk about how bad the vanilla port was.
Hm well it's not as much that's it's still in the game but that there are whole areas where the torch mechanic would've clearly been required or at least would have helped out a great deal while it has now lost all of its usefulness. I don't know if there still are areas left where this isn't the case but this is very noticeable in the tutorial area of all things. It would've introduced a great horror game like feel which was one of the things that I think would've really set it apart from its predecessor. That's what I was really looking forward to y'know?
I'd hope it would count here in Europe what with the required disclaimers nowadays but it'd be interesting to see for sure.
We usually don't see things as drastic as this though do we? Plus changes from pre-release to release may be standard, as they should be, but I really think that something like this should be made clear to us before the release. It's not a change, it's a cut. One where the cut content is still being advertised at that. I do think that this was done with malicious intent by Namco but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
From what I gather the beta had the same geometry and textures as the final build has but with the fancy lightning, which would be something I doubt many people would complain about if it was like this in the released game. Now it was limited to certain areas however so for all we know would have ran way worse in other spots. GamingIsDead's post certainly points out that people had issues with the beta.
By the way, sorry if it seems like I'm targeting you but it's just that you've been very reasonable in this discussion.
I was not under the impression because it was stated that they were in fact the same game, which was hard to believe when it was first posted.
Explain the difference.
ThatGayWolf
Member
So why are the sconces to light even there. Why is there a boss fight where
he snatches the light out of torches and you have to relight them to target him, even though you can see him just fine without the torches?
That better be the PC version.
DrROBschiz
Member
Because its on PS3/360
I can totally see why people have flocked to next gen consoles to the tune of almost 10 million already
People are tired of this shit lol
Whether or not it's justified is a bit beside the point as for those who're raising up their pitchforks and (pun intended) torches it's an unforgivable crime that's leaves their angry without need of actual justification. It's interesting what different enthusiasts respond to though, isn't it?
It's always nice to find a way to twist the issue and place the blame on the consumers. It's not like the reviews mentioned it much anyway.
DrROBschiz
Member
Because the game was near finished?
And the some of the Torch mechanics are still there. Im not sure what you are trying to say here
Stone Ocean
Member
Now you're just being silly. Your analogy would only work if I ordered a Whopper, but when they went to make the meal they were out of salad and pickles, so they delivered me a cheeseburger with mayo without telling me anything until it was ready to pick up. It would still be delicious, but that's not what I fucking ordered.
I agree with everything you said here except what I italicized. I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
I don't remember whopper demos at events looking different from the final whopper, I also don't remember how long the whopper was in development or how many whopper demos were shown off.
You're being beyond obtuse, and moving goal posts by ranking slippery slopes. We just want honesty, and FROM has declined on that front.
It doesn't matter if they what it's revolving around, when they're specifically showing the PS3 version.
I missed the PAX BK attended. Did they raise the price to $60 so this flawed analogy has legs?