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[GreatestHits]

I agree.

The only possible outcomes of this bitching, I'm afraid, is From fears more backlash and goes back to the Dark Souls 1 philosophy of trying to make all the versions of the games have parity to avoid more backlash. I think that's a very possible scenario given how loud everyone is complaining.

Meanwhile From was very upfront in saying PC was the lead SKU and two weeks ago even Namco-Bandia PR was out there saying "PC Gamers will not be disappointed" and "We are doing PC right this time" when they talked to gaming press.

These old consoles simply can't handle the game with all those effects turned on. If they could, they would be in there. From didn't turn them off to be big meanies.

But now I'm worried the PC version gets a bunch of features cut just to end the complaining. From isn't a huge company with unlimited resources and Dark Souls 2 is very likely their biggest success. I can very easily see the be depressed and intimidated enough at all the backlash to edit down the PC versions features for parity's sake now that this has become a big deal. When the first game came out they actually said they tried to make sure the PC version had parity for the sake of all their fans having the same experience. Then DS 2 comes out and PC version is lead school and it's an avalanche on shit mountain. From their perspective, I'm sure it seems like they can't win.

Are you fucking serious?

You guys need to leave this thread if that is truly where this discussion is going for you. This thread is about 1 simple thing: They showed us 6 weeks before launch, a game that we never got. They said the footage was from PS3. We got a port of that game. All that PC discussion is irrelevant. If you can't understand how this is wrong for anyone to do in any line of business, then I don't think you can contribute anything meaningful to this discussion.

 

[Big_Al]

And that's pretty shitty but it's also The Playstation Channel shilling for Playstation. When a reputable site has developers bring in the game to show some of the questions that are typically asked include:

1) So is this the final version or near final?

2) What platform are we looking at today?

I hear Giant Bomb, for example, do this pretty much every time they have a developer on to show a game. It sucks that Playstation channel didn't do that but of course they didn't because they are paid shills for Playstation. They aren't really a consumer oriented site. They are another marketing arm. One company's marketing intersecting with another company's marketing.

If anything this shows why it is bad to not have gaming journalist and to have big companies be the ones doing fake game journalism. I also wouldn't trust Official Xbox Magazine if they told you Titanfall is the best game of the century and only runs best on Xbox One.

Well the actual name of the video is Dark Souls 2 PS3 Gameplay so I don't think it's unfair for the customer to think that's what they were going to get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3MdOBH-jDc

By hiding the downgrade until the game was released? Extra sales, obviously.

From Software are a niche games company who make games that they want to make. I mean you could be right but I just don't see extra sales for From Software being a big factor. Namco on the other hand......

 

[nbthedude]

Well the actual name of the video is Dark Souls 2 PS3 Gameplay so I don't think it's unfair for the customer to think that's what they were going to get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3MdOBH-jDc

Right. We agree. Playstation Access is a shitty marketing shill service that should not be viewed as consumer oriented. It's a big company pretending to be media while shilling their own goods.

Also keep in mind that Namco lifted the embargo on coverage of the game at 12:00AM Eastern Standard Time in the United States. That's actually a bit earlier than most games lift their embargoes. It meant that literally the second the game went on sale, you could find tons of video footage of the final version online. Giant Bomb for example had an hour and half long quicklook up at 12:00AM sharp.

 

[SlasherJPC]

meanwhile...

LOL

 

[Misterinenja]

By hiding the downgrade until the game was released? Extra sales, obviously.

I mean the people who say they did this on purpose because the lighting was there in Beta (was it?). It was obviously last minute cut.

And they released some pretty grimy looking screenshots before the launch...

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

Those who think this is some sort of conspiracy... What could From possibly gain by doing this?

The engine simply isn't suited for last gen machines.

More sales, a lot of people would not have bought the game if they new it had undergone so many downgrades, pure and simple.

The fact we never saw the final product before it was released is extremely shady!

 

[Big_Al]

Right. We agree. Playstation Access is a shitty marketing shill service that should not be viewed as consumer oriented. It's a big company pretending to be media while shilling their own goods.

Yeah. In all honesty it's really only that video that sticks in my craw. I think footage 8 - 10 months or older is very much subject to change up to final release. I may not be happy about it but I still think its fair to think it can change, even a great deal, up to release.

A month and a half before release ? Not so much.

 

[butman]

At this point of the subject i'm starting to think that nobody, Bamco or From, wants to admit or talk about all this was a huuuuge mistake because it would be a shame of proportions.

I don't see other reason.

It's the first time that happens something so noticeable like this in a game and nobody of the company say a word? At least with Aliens Colonial Marines the devs said something.

 

[soldat7]

Pretty much this. Game is unplayable on ps3 imo

Let's not be too hyperbolic now...

 

[zephervack]

At this point of the subject i'm starting to think that nobody, Bamco or From, wants to admit or talk about all this was a mistake because it would be a shame of proportions.

I don't see other reason.

It's the first time that happens something so noticeable like this in a game and nobody of the company say a word? At least with Aliens Colonial Marines the devs said something.

At best they will say that they couldn't get the effects running on current consoles, but that the PC version keeps all the effects intact and that they will try to release a patch for the consoles bringing some of it back.

At worst they will say it was just a prototype and that there is no version of the full game that looks like that.

In reality they will just say there is nothing wrong and that games change during development, while linking to their metacritic page.

 

[nbthedude]

Yeah. In all honesty it's really only that video that sticks in my craw. I think footage 8 - 10 months or older is very much subject to change up to final release. I may not be happy about it but I still think its fair to think it can change, even a great deal, up to release.

A month and a half before release ? Not so much.

Which would have been cleared up if Playstation Access would have specified how old the build is or what Namco told them about the version they were playing or what platform it was on. But of course they did none of those things.

In fact, according to that video, they weren't even playing the game but it was "Someone at Namco playing it" which even could mean that Namco just gave them a disc with some media on it that they then talked over the top of. It sure as heck doesn't mean that they captured footage directly from a PS3 or that Namco told them this was PS3 footage. And they make no attempt to make any of that clear in terms of what version it is or what platform.

 

[Lasthope106]

I agree.

The only possible outcomes of this bitching, I'm afraid, is From fears more backlash and goes back to the Dark Souls 1 philosophy of trying to make all the versions of the games have parity to avoid more backlash. I think that's a very possible scenario given how loud everyone is complaining.

Meanwhile From was very upfront in saying PC was the lead SKU and two weeks ago even Namco-Bandia PR was out there saying "PC Gamers will not be disappointed" and "We are doing PC right this time" when they talked to gaming press.

These old consoles simply can't handle the game with all those effects turned on. If they could, they would be in there. From didn't turn them off to be big meanies.

But now I'm worried the PC version gets a bunch of features cut just to end the complaining. From isn't a huge company with unlimited resources and Dark Souls 2 is very likely their biggest success. I can very easily see the be depressed and intimidated enough at all the backlash to edit down the PC versions features for parity's sake now that this has become a big deal. When the first game came out they actually said they tried to make sure the PC version had parity for the sake of all their fans having the same experience. Then DS 2 comes out and PC version is lead school and it's an avalanche on shit mountain. From their perspective, I'm sure it seems like they can't win.

That is the stupidest thing they could do. Let's assume that the pc version is in fact better (which I doubt at this point). Cutting features will piss off one of the loudest audience they have. FROM should come out and be honest, explain what is going on. If the old consoles couldn't run the game and sacrifices had to be made, I'm sure a lot of people would understand.

 

[tehPete]

Just a thought, but if the PC version does turn out to be closer to the original reveal for the game then how about giving out PC licenses for those interested, who've bought the game based on the promotional material put out in the buildup, or even the screenshots shown on the back of the game case itself? I don't see any reference to the screenshots coming from a different system, and they clearly show a more advanced build to that offered in the final product.

 

[Big_Al]

Which would have been cleared up if Playstation Access would have specified how old the build is or what Namco told them about the version they were playing or what platform it was on. But of course they did none of those things.

In fact, according to that video, they weren't even playing the game but it was "Someone at Namco playing it" which even could mean that Namco just gave them a disc with some media on it that they then talked over the top of. It sure as heck doesn't mean that they captured footage directly from a PS3 or that Namco told them this was PS3 footage. And they make no attempt to make any of that clear in terms of what version it is or what platform.

Very true, I agree, we don't really know the circumstances around the footage itself either.

I'd like to think that for many fans it's just that they want an explanation more than anything rather than boycotting the series. I'm buying the PC version day one regardless, I can't miss out on one of my favourite series ever and going from friends that have it, it's brilliant. So just biding my time until April

 

[nbthedude]

That is the stupidest thing they could do. Let's assume that the pc version is in fact better (which I doubt at this point). Cutting features will piss off one of the loudest audience they have. FROM should come out and be honest, explain what is going on. If the old consoles couldn't run the game and sacrifices had to be made, I'm sure a lot of people would understand.

I hope your right. But I and most others thought it was stupid for them to lock the PC version at sub-720p resolution to create parity in the first place. They are not above doing stupid things.

I'm certainly not saying they should do that or that it is the best business decision but merely that given their history I can see that as a possible outcome of this.

 

[Ghazi]

Just a thought, but if the PC version does turn out to be closer to the original reveal for the game then how about giving out PC licenses for those interested, who've bought the game based on the promotional material put out in the buildup, or even the screenshots shown on the back of the game case itself? I don't see any reference to the screenshots coming from a different system, and they clearly show a more advanced build to that offered in the final product.

They would not do that, no way they would. They would lose out on so, so, so many sales that way.

Better to just say 360/PS3 gen consoles couldn't run the game well enough and get the new sales on PC, from a business perspective.

 

[Scrooged]

Who would have thought that graphics of all things would make the fanbase up in arms about his game.

 

[nbthedude]

Very true, I agree, we don't really know the circumstances around the footage itself either.

I'd like to think that for many fans it's just that they want an explanation more than anything rather than boycotting the series. I'm buying the PC version day one regardless, I can't miss out on one of my favourite series ever and going from friends that have it, it's brilliant. So just biding my time until April

Maybe some of those fans should be barking down Playstation Access's door. They seem pretty responsible for creating that impression from where I stand. Unless they come out and specifically say Namco gave them the impression/told them that that was the final PS3 build, I'm not sure there is enough reason to automatically give them a pass.

 

[lazer_bean]

That is the stupidest thing they could do. Let's assume that the pc version is in fact better (which I doubt at this point). Cutting features will piss off one of the loudest audience they have. FROM should come out and be honest, explain what is going on. If the old consoles couldn't run the game and sacrifices had to be made, I'm sure a lot of people would understand.

I still wouldn't understand how games like TLoU, uncharted 2 or gta V can run on them but not dark souls 2

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

Who would have thought that graphics of all things would make the fanbase up in arms about his game.

Its the lies and the fact that they never showed us the final version... everyone kept showing the game with the amazing lighting and better textures. That's the issue!

Basically we all have the impression we were : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

 

[pa22word]

Who would have thought that graphics of all things would make the fanbase up in arms about his game.

We're 44 pages in and this fallacious bullshit is still getting posted?

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

I still wouldn't understand how games like TLoU, uncharted 2 or gta V can run on them but not dark souls 2

FROM is not Naugthydog by a looooooong shot!

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Maybe some of those fans should be barking down Playstation Access's door. They seem pretty responsible for creating that impression from where I stand. Unless they come out and specifically say Namco gave them the impression/told them that that was the final PS3 build, I'm not sure there is enough reason to automatically give them a pass.

The fuck?

They were invited to a Namco event where they play a demo running on PS3. The same demo which was on several gaming related shows, around the same time frame. A demo that was still running on PS3.

It was Namco decision to keep using that demo to show the game to the media and fans alike until a few weeks before release. Not a single other media reported that the game was different from that TGS demo until release, hell most od the media didn't even reported about a downgrade.

So tell me, how is PlayStation Access guilty here rather than Namco by actively using a build that wasn't gonna look like the final game?

 

[Big_Al]

FROM is not Naugthydog by a looooooong shot!

Plus the budgets and manpower for those games would be tenfold bigger than what From Software have.

 

[solarus]

Who would have thought that graphics of all things would make the fanbase up in arms about his game.

It's about the deception involved, if you aren't gonna bother informing yourself then get out of this thread.

 

[Lasthope106]

I still wouldn't understand how games like TLoU, uncharted 2 or gta V can run on them but not dark souls 2

Those games are in a league of their own. We can't compare FROM, which is a small Japanese studio, to the best 1st party studio Sony has, and the biggest gaming franchise TakeTwo has. In fact, I don't doubt that Rockstar has an R&D group that is as strong as Naughty Dog's - if only they put as much effort into their pc ports which run like shit.

 

[tehPete]

They would not do that, no way they would. They would lose out on so, so, so many sales that way.

Better to just say 360/PS3 gen consoles couldn't run the game well enough and get the new sales on PC, from a business perspective.

Why not? Valve allow you to download their titles for three different systems when you buy the license for any of them, and given the negative press resulting from this (I won't be buying another Souls game at release based on this debacle) it'd be an easy way to restore goodwill. As it is they appear to have stuttered the release dates to maximize double-dipping, which is underhanded to say the least and something the industry should be ashamed of relying on (ahem Tomb Raider ahem).

Edit: & because I've not seen it picked up on anywhere else so far (though I've not read the whole thread to be fair), the screenshots on the back of the retail case show the preview build complete with advanced effects. Okay it's not on the same level as Colonial Marines, but there's enough of a difference between what was advertised and what was delivered that there could be a case there. What's on the box isn't what's in the box, & the law tends to frown on bait'n'switches like that. I imagine in a dark room somewhere, a legal exec is already drawing up a defence.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

People forgets that the PR behind the game was pushing the whole:"New engine ready for next-gen", "New next gen tech that can be used on current gen", "Looks like next-gen"


People was expecting a top notch current gen looking game, because that was basically what was advertized...

The argument of:"This is From! what ppl were expecting?" dosn't work, since we were told and shown a very different story.

 

[erpg]

Why not? Valve allow you to download their titles for three different systems when you buy the license for any of them, and given the negative press resulting from this (I won't be buying another Souls game at release based on this debacle) it'd be an easy way to restore goodwill. As it is they appear to have stuttered the release dates to maximize double-dipping, which is underhanded to say the least and something the industry should be ashamed of relying on (ahem Tomb Raider ahem).

What three different systems?

Valve does Steam. That's it.

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

What three different systems?

Valve does Steam. That's it.

Linux, Windows and mac

 

[doomquake]

thanks a lot.. THANKS A LOT DURANTE.

 

[erpg]

Linux, Windows and mac

I see Steam, Steam and Steam. A platform independent storefront.

 

[Pooya]

I played the game for 5 hours or so beat 2 bosses, it doesn't look any different than DS1 so much that I'm calling BS on new engine thing
I haven't used the torch past the tutorial either, it's useless. It doesn't look ugly overall but maybe bland. I don't really care for any of the locations so far, DS1 had a way more oppressing feel to it. The preview materiel look way more exciting and atmospheric. makes me sad.

they're so gonna make an upres port later with those features and go look see the difference! pay us again.

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

I see Steam, Steam and Steam. A platform independent storefront.

He was talking about support for 3 different operating systems.

 

[nbthedude]

The fuck?

They were invited to a Namco event where they play a demo running on PS3. The same demo which was on several gaming related shows, around the same time frame. A demo that was still running on PS3.

It was Namco decision to keep using that demo to show the game to the media and fans alike. Not a single other media reported that the game was different from that TGS demo until release.

I don't see where they state that in the video. And I just rewatched it (well listened to it because I'm avoiding spoilers as much as possible). I listened to the entire thing just to make sure they never mention it anywhere. Here is what I heard:

"I went to play it last week at Namco last week. And disclaimer first, what you are watching now is someone from Namco playing the game..." (at the start of the video)

". . . This is a reason for me to stop playing Resogun " (PS4 reminder/shill at the end of the video)

That doesn't tell me anything about where the footage they are showing is from. It doesn't even indicate that it was footage they watched when they were at Namco and given how this industry works, I'd say it's even pretty likely this is just footage given to them on a disc to take back with them. Hell, he doesn't even indicate that he saw the Playstation 3 version at all anywhere in that entire video.

 

[erpg]

He was talking about support for 3 different operating systems.

Well, it's a naive way if looking at it. Valve did cross-platform giveaway once, with Portal 2 on PS3. That's it.

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

Well, it's a naive way if looking at it. Valve did cross-platform giveaway once, with Portal 2 on PS3. That's it.

Don't shoot the messenger, just translating

 

[erpg]

Don't shoot the messenger, just translating

Yeah, sorry. I get riled up by the stupidest things.

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

Yeah, sorry. I get riled up by the stupidest things.

No worries .

 

[Scrooged]

We're 44 pages in and this fallacious bullshit is still getting posted?

I don't feel like spending 30 minutes reading the entire thread. Sorry. Just stating my opinion.

How is it fallacious anyway? Okay, so the previews looks a ton better than the final version. That sucks. But I never thought of DS fans to really care that much about the visuals in the first place.

Also, the whole conspiracy angle is kinda ridiculous.

 

[tehPete]

Well, it's a naive way if looking at it. Valve did cross-platform giveaway once, with Portal 2 on PS3. That's it.

I believe you're incorrect; afaik if you buy any Source-engine game from Valve, you get access to versions on Windows, Mac & Linux? It's not the cross-platform giveaway, it's buying one license for multiple systems.

 

[elementalsin]

I believe you're incorrect; afaik if you buy any Source-engine game from Valve, you get access to versions on Windows, Mac & Linux? It's not cross-platform play, it's buying one license for multiple systems.

In his specific example he is correct... Portal 2 on PS3 came with a code that allowed access to Portal 2 on PC

 

[PetriP-TNT]

My brother just sent me this (normal brightness, zero brightness, normal with torch, zero with torch):

and his conclusion was the same as someone elses earlier, setting the default brightness via the slider to the recommended levels, after the adjustments, makes the game too bright: ie. when they adjusted the lightning, the didn't set a new zero point for the brightness slider, making the game look too bright on default settings.

 

[epmode]

Offscreen footage is a terrible way to judge this, by the way. That looks nothing like it would look in person.

Also, the big problem is when you're NOT using a torch. In certain areas, the game was supposed to make it impossible to see without one. If the lighting were done correctly, increasing gamma would not help in this case. ..but From just increased the ambient light so you can always see without a torch.

 

[tehPete]

In his specific example he is correct... Portal 2 on PS3 came with a code that allowed access to Portal 2 on PC

True - I bought the PS3 version specifically for that offer. He missed the original point is all, which is that it's possible to offer that type of license for purchase and still turn a profit - and sometimes you might want to trade a bit of that profit for customer goodwill, which is much harder to earn.

 

[Amir0x]

Just checking, will you buy Dark Souls 2 PC when it comes up? I mean, if you--or anyone else in here--are angry about this, that means you are angry about the *principle* behind it, right? The *lies* performed by Namco and FROM. So am I right in thinking that you won't be buying Dark Souls 2 in any way, shape, or form since you are obviously upset about how the producer/creator of the game has done something that you consider a betrayal to your principle as a gamer?

Because it is kind of silly, don't you think, if someday Namco and FROM release Dark Souls 2 PC/next-gen/whatever and it's beautiful and all that and they say "Sorry about the lies before" and you say "Sure, and I'll buy this version no problem!" since you'll be obviously rewarding the company that has betrayed your principle as a gamer--in a way, this can also be seen as a "haha poor you but whatev I get the superior version" to the folks that, as you said, got swindled by them in the first place even though, I assume, you are also angry at their behalf at the beginning.


Wow now..........................................

The goal is to get them to make it right. That would be apologizing in a press release, admitting their deception and then releasing the version of the game they spoke about somewhere and offer refunds to consumers who want it so they could get the other version they were originally thinking they were going to buy.

If they do that, I have no problem with securing a copy of the advertised version.

I don't feel like spending 30 minutes reading the entire thread. Sorry. Just stating my opinion.

How is it fallacious anyway? Okay, so the previews looks a ton better than the final version. That sucks. But I never thought of DS fans to really care that much about the visuals in the first place.

Because you don't get that people are less angry about the fact the visuals and gameplay elements have been massively downgraded than they are about the fact that literally up until the eve of the game's release they were pretending that was the version of the game we were getting. They had no intention of informing consumers as to the actual product they were getting. Consumers deserve the right to not walk in blind to their purchases and be misled as to what is contained therein. It is their right to decide a certain visual level is not acceptable, or that a certain gameplay element makes a package unappealing. And the only way this process works is if you do not have publishers and developers actively pretending they're releasing a product which they are not.

It's a complete breech of consumer trust, and they deserve all the shit they are getting.

And as an aside, even if it was about the visuals only, who cares? Visuals are a big part of gaming. The visual mood of Dark Souls and Demon Soul's, whether they are technically impressive or not, is a big part of the appeal. But as we know, that's not what this issue is mostly about.

 

[erpg]

I believe you're incorrect; afaik if you buy any Source-engine game from Valve, you get access to versions on Windows, Mac & Linux? It's not the cross-platform giveaway, it's buying one license for multiple systems.

Think of it this way: Steam is the platform. The rest is just hardware.

PlayStation 3 to Steam is cross-platform. Steam to Steam isn't.

True - I bought the PS3 version specifically for that offer. He missed the original point is all, which is that it's possible to offer that type of license for purchase and still turn a profit - and sometimes you might want to trade a bit of that profit for customer goodwill, which is much harder to earn.

Namco offering another license on another platform is very different from Valve offering another license on a platform they own. One's a complete wash, the other is poaching users, which Valve profits off of with retention and every sale. It isn't a charity.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

Offscreen footage is a terrible way to judge this, by the way. That looks nothing like it would look in person.

Also, the big problem is when you're NOT using a torch. The game was supposed to make it impossible to see.

Why don't you just play it then. He was literally playing at that point around 10 minutes ago and that was the conclusion he ended up with. You spend 5 hours studying changes with a JPEG image taken from compressed stream and a 120px width GIF. With zero brightness, you only see your immediate surroundings. With torch you see the end of the tunnel.

The next step from judging the game by playing it is making yourself one with the screen in molecular level.

edit: My bro just said that the torch mechanic is still there too: zero brightness -> don't see shit. Set candles on fire -> can see surroundings -> don't have to use torch -> can light torches from the candles too, not just the bonfires.

 

[SlasherJPC]

My brother just sent me this (normal brightness, zero brightness, normal with torch, zero with torch):

and his conclusion was the same as someone elses earlier, setting the default brightness via the slider to the recommended levels, after the adjustments, makes the game too bright: ie. when they adjusted the lightning, the didn't set a new zero point for the brightness slider, making the game look too bright on default settings.

Interesting. I'm going to try this zero brightness thing.

 

[Ingueferroque]

Those who think this is some sort of conspiracy... What could From possibly gain by doing this?

Are you being silly?