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[fresquito]

If you guys follow A German Spy on YouTube who is doing a walkthrough of Dark Souls 2, you will understand what happened. First off, A German Spy (AGS) co-wrote the guide along with EpicNameBro (ENB) and said that at one point during a version of the de-bug build he played the game had better visuals, BUT the framerate was in the single digits most of the time. The next version they got (was the retail version) had downgraded visuals but a steady 30 fps.

So there you go.

Blame the old consoles, not the developers.

Edit:

Here is the video with a jump to where he talks about how the framerate was improved.

http://youtu.be/_tbLxKKCNQM?t=1h52s

Hahaha, people will go places to save their God's asses.

The game got advertised as something it is not. You can't blame the consoles for being what they are. But you can blame those that promise something they can't deliver and, here's the deal, once they realise they can't deliver it, they shut their mouths, send the product to the stores and hope for people to be blind and never realise.

It's no wonder that companies treat gamers as retards, because, honestly, reading through this thread you understand they are into something.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

Hahaha, people will go places to save their God's asses.

The game got advertised as something it is not. You can't blame the consoles for being what they are. But you can blame those that promise something they can't deliver and, here's the deal, once they realise they can't deliver it, they shut their mouths, send the product to the stores and hope for people to be blind and never realise.

It's no wonder that companies treat gamers as retards, because, honestly, reading through this thread you understand they are into something.

Indeed, posters like jamesgriggs make me lose hope in humanity.

 

[butman]

My brother just sent me this (normal brightness, zero brightness, normal with torch, zero with torch):

and his conclusion was the same as someone elses earlier, setting the default brightness via the slider to the recommended levels, after the adjustments, makes the game too bright: ie. when they adjusted the lightning, the didn't set a new zero point for the brightness slider, making the game look too bright on default settings.

Ask your brother if he can lower the brightness on this stage. Maybe the dragons are afraid of the bright!

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

http://youtu.be/_tbLxKKCNQM?t=1h52s

"Silky smooth framerate"

WUT?

 

[Archaix]

If you guys follow A German Spy on YouTube who is doing a walkthrough of Dark Souls 2, you will understand what happened. First off, A German Spy (AGS) co-wrote the guide along with EpicNameBro (ENB) and said that at one point during a version of the de-bug build he played the game had better visuals, BUT the framerate was in the single digits most of the time. The next version they got (was the retail version) had downgraded visuals but a steady 30 fps.

So there you go.

Blame the old consoles, not the developers.

Edit:

Here is the video with a jump to where he talks about how the framerate was improved.

http://youtu.be/_tbLxKKCNQM?t=1h52s

Oh, so it's the consoles that are handling the advertising for the game and the screenshots and videos that are being released?

 

[epmode]

But at it's worst, embargoes on Dark Souls 2 were up at 12:00PM EST in U.S, the very second the game went on sale. There were a ton of sites with footage up. Anyone could have spent 10 minutes watching Giant Bomb's quicklook or any of the literal hundreds of Twitch or Youtube streams of the specific version they were interested in before heading to the store.

Disregarding the way you're deflecting blame from Namco, people who pre-ordered from Amazon or wherever didn't have this opportunity. They were charged when the game shipped, a day before the embargo was lifed.

 

[lazer_bean]

His idea of "the problem": I want to play an awesome version of Dark Souls 2.

Your idea of "the problem": "Videogame justice."

what does videogame justice even mean? Is this a way to talk about consumer rights or something like that ?

at the end of the day I'm not the one who spent 60€ on something I won't be using and will have to buy twice.

 

[Easy_D]

I still think that #YOUDOWNGRADED is better than #YOULIED

 

[Archaix]

I still think that #YOUDOWNGRADED is better than #YOULIED

Then you still miss the point. The biggest issue is not that the final game didn't live up to their development goals, it's that they hid this fact from people and continue to do so.

 

[GreatestHits]

Who would have thought that graphics of all things would make the fanbase up in arms about his game.

It's a testament to the level of deception. No one cared about the graphics until they saw how deceptive they were about it, or until they stepped in-game and saw something completely different than the reveal.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I'm beginning to regret that I got this game for PS3. The performance is so insanely poor. I don't know if it's the PS3's Vsync or not, but it feels like the game is running in slow motion most of the time.The frame rate sucks ass even in rooms with relatively low distance to environments and whatnot.

I tried to load Demon's Souls to see if that game was as bad. To my reassurance, it was a lot better than DS2. I didn't remember DeS performance to be this bad. If only DS2 looked much better to compensate for the low performance (those N64 animations are horrible).

60€ down the drain. I simply need to wait for this game to be launched on PC. The console version is unacceptable.

I am sorry, but this is kind of funny to me.

Basically you are saying in one post that what they did is unacceptable and yet you will give them twice the money from your pocket. Huh.

 

[nbthedude]

You seem to keep forgetting that the TGS demo was running on PS3....

Fair enough. But as everyone has acknowledged, games change during their development and stuff gets cut and changed.

But then when you bring that point up, people seem to point to the Playstation Access video, which doesn't specify what version of the game that is or how current the build is. . And if they didn't bother to specify, I'm not sure how that can be used as evidence that Namco was trying to trick people on what the final game looked like on consoles.

 

[Chuck]

Ohhhh, you lied a play on you died!

I just got it >.>

 

[Easy_D]

Then you still miss the point. The biggest issue is not that the final game didn't live up to their development goals, it's that they hid this fact from people and continue to do so.

Am I really? It's still calling From out to comment on the fact that the game is downgraded. But I understand where you're coming from. What's important is that we're gaining attention and I hope we can shed some light on the situation in the end.

This is pretty much what needs to happen. Journos are all "Yeah Dark Souls is awesome, the sequel is awesome too yeahhh!"

 

[nbthedude]

Disregarding the way you're deflecting blame from Namco, people who pre-ordered from Amazon or wherever didn't have this opportunity. They were charged when the game shipped, a day before the embargo was lifed.

People who pre-order also don't get to read reviews before they buy. They chose to ignore this fact and pre-order based largely on marketing material and/or game footage that is almost always labeled "not necessarily representative of the final game."

 

[epmode]

People who pre-order also don't get to read reviews before they buy. They chose to ignore this fact and pre-order based largely on marketing material and/or game footage that is almost always labeled "not necessarily representative of the final game."

I'm not sure what you're getting out of defending blatantly deceptive behavior from Namco that goes beyond the bullshit we usually see in this industry. But keep it up, I guess.

 

[Easy_D]

People who pre-order also don't get to read reviews before they buy. They chose to ignore this fact and pre-order based largely on marketing material and/or game footage that is almost always labeled "not necessarily representative of the final game."

OK Fine, but when you try to make a point to say "LOOK AT OUR NEW LIGHTING! TORCHES ARE GOING TO PLAY A VERY BIG ROLE, WE ARE SO PROUD TO HAVE IMPROVED PERFORMANCE AND GRAPHICS!" every chance you get, you don't see anything wrong?

I mean it's not like the final game looks much worse and overall seems to run worse than the first game

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Fair enough. But as everyone has acknowledged, games change during their development and stuff gets cut and changed.

But then when you bring that point up, people seem to point to the Playstation Access video, which doesn't specify what version of the game that is or how current the build is. . And if they didn't bother to specify, I'm not sure how that can be used as evidence that Namco was trying to trick people on what the final game looked like on consoles.

And is something we can see through different demos and screenshots over the development. This isn't the case, Namco keep showing a version they knew wasn't gonna be the retail one on public and press events.

PlayStation Access not questioning what version the demo they were shown is at most a marginal issue. The fact is Namco kept advertising that version for months up the release of the game. That's the problem.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

But then when you bring that point up, people seem to point to the Playstation Access video, which doesn't specify what version of the game that is or how current the build is. . And if they didn't bother to specify, I'm not sure how that can be used as evidence that Namco was trying to trick people on what the final game looked like on consoles.

So what you're saying is that the guys from Playstation Access should have assumed Namco was lying from the beginning.

January 30th:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TowEGaVreLM

"This is direct capture taken from the PS3 version".

 

[lazer_bean]

Fair enough. But as everyone has acknowledged, games change during their development and stuff gets cut and changed.

But then when you bring that point up, people seem to point to the Playstation Access video, which doesn't specify what version of the game that is or how current the build is. . And if they didn't bother to specify, I'm not sure how that can be used as evidence that Namco was trying to trick people on what the final game looked like on consoles.

i thinkn most people assume that when they play a beta or demo of a game which "does not reflect the quality of the final version" the final version will be better, not worse.

also are you saying that:
- the title "Dark Souls 2 PS3 Gameplay - 5 Things We Learned"
- the guys joking "this is Dark Souls 2, the easiest game on ps3"
- on a channel called "playstation access"
do not imply at all that the footage you're seeing runs on a ps3 ?

 

[Easy_D]

Lol guys. What if the "nb" part in his username actually stands for NamcoBandai

Spoiler

I kid, of course.

i thinkn most people assume that when they play a beta or demo of a game which "does not reflect the quality of the final version" the final version will be better, not worse.

also are you saying that:
- the title "Dark Souls 2 PS3 Gameplay - 5 Things We Learned"
- the guys joking "this is Dark Souls 2, the easiest game on ps3"
- on a channel called "playstation access"
do not imply at all that the footage you're seeing runs on a ps3 ?

Well it's either that or it implies that PS Access was in on the lie as well. Those are the only two possible scenarios and in both you'd be pissed, either just at Bamco or at both bamco and Sony as well.

 

[Archaix]

People who pre-order also don't get to read reviews before they buy. They chose to ignore this fact and pre-order based largely on marketing material and/or game footage that is almost always labeled "not necessarily representative of the final game."

I think my favorite thing about GAF this week is that you got indignant over somebody who is playing a game in his spare time because he's not playing it on a set schedule (and often doesn't play when he says he would), but you're completely okay with being lied to about the actual contents of a game from a company charging money for it and actually defending their right to lie to people.

 

[tehPete]

And is something we can see through different demos and screenshots over the development. This isn't the case, Namco keep showing a version they knew wasn't gonna be the retail one on public and press events.

PlayStation Access not questioning what version the demo they were shown is at most a marginal issue. The fact is Namco kept advertising that version for months up the release of the game. That's the problem.

It's the last time I'll raise this, but screenshots from the preview builds are used as advertising on the back cover of the retail PS3 version. Not taking into account media produced by third parties, can anyone point out any media produced by Namco / From themselves that's sourced from the retail version? TV Ad spots, website frames or banners, anything in the retail engine at all?

 

[Mkilbride]

I honestly tthink From just wanted this game out the door and done with, so they could focus on a PS4 / Xbone game. They sent it out broken and unbuggy, because they were to lazy and knew people would eat it up, at the end of a console generation, fans would find it acceptable, rather than be out-raged.

For the most part, From is right. The people defending From Software sicken me. It -does- NOT MATTER that it's a good game. That has NOTHING to do with this topic or what it discusses. STOP saying that "It's a good game" crap. That's not the point of this thread.

From STILL showcases the videos of "PS3" gameplay, with the lighting and better textures. Claiming that's what the game looks like ON CONSOLES.

Infact, prior to release, From was saying stuff like "We remade to ENgine to have better graphic fidelity, this time around we really focused on graphic quality"

So, with them saying all that, how in the ten burning hells, is it acceptable that the game comes out, without warning, looking like it did. THEY made the fuss about graphics, not fans, then didn't deliver.

Hey, I got a bridge to sell you, it's abit used, but it's a GOOD bridge!


__________________


Anyone else find it ironic in the above video, that when he starts talking about "Silky Smooth 30FPS frame-rate, steady, they somehow did it!", that his FPS plummets to 22FPS? for like 5 seconds, until he turns away from the area...lol. Also "The graphics have been "de-celerated"

 

[nbthedude]

It's the last time I'll raise this, but screenshots from the preview builds are used as advertising on the back cover of the retail PS3 version. Not taking into account media produced by third parties, can anyone point out any media produced by Namco / From themselves that's sourced from the retail version? TV Ad spots, website frames or banners, anything in the retail engine at all?

i thinkn most people assume that when they play a beta or demo of a game which "does not reflect the quality of the final version" the final version will be better, not worse.

also are you saying that:
- the title "Dark Souls 2 PS3 Gameplay - 5 Things We Learned"
- the guys joking "this is Dark Souls 2, the easiest game on ps3"
- on a channel called "playstation access"
do not imply at all that the footage you're seeing runs on a ps3 ?

The PS3 case having different images is a weird thing for sure but I think it's also a bit weird for companies to have to have different images from each boxed version of the game on the back each of their cases. But I can certainly see the case where that is false advertising for someone who walks into the store and looks at the back of the box to determine what version of the game he is buying. My biggest hang up here is kind of two fold. First, we don't know what version of the game is being shown in some of the footage because not all it specifies. Second, development of different versions of a game change all the time.

I dunno, guys. Back in my day I kind of took it on myself to know how shitty or good the various versions of a game were before I decided to buy it on one system or the other. I bought Street Fighter Alpha and X-men on the Saturn and I bought Symphony of the Night and Tomb Raider on the Playstation. I didn't depend on back of the box screenshots or preview footage to tell me which version of the game was best. I largely depended on reviews and message boards. And I didn't have any problem doing that. It was just a common thing I did all the time.

I am absolutely positive there were many times in the past, probably most times, where the superior version of a game is the one shown in preview coverage. The problem here seems to the blackbox of the PC version preventing us from knowing the full story.

Here is what I will say would convince me there was legitimate shady dealings going on:

1) If the PC version comes out and looks nothing like any of the footage revealing that all the footage up until release and including the official screenshots and box images after release were bogus.

Or

2) If someone can show that Namco intentionally mislead the press to make them think the versions they were looking at were console versions when it was really PC.

In either of those cases I would say, yes, that is good grounds for assuming they lied and/or misrepresented their game in an unfair manner. I just have not seen evidence to either of those things as of yet.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

__________________


Anyone else find it ironic in the above video, that when he starts talking about "Silky Smooth 30FPS frame-rate, steady, they somehow did it!", that his FPS plummets to 22FPS? for like 5 seconds, until he turns away from the area...lol. Also "The graphics have been "de-celerated"

Makes me quite weary tbh.

We know that the game drops frames almost constantly in PS3 and even 360. So the silky smooth 30fps" comments irks me. Also when he says the game looks "slightly worse" than the old version. lol

Since the BF4 deal I can't trust these guys and way less guys who have been paid by Namco to work on a guide.

 

[Fried Food]

I hope we get answers tommorrow. I want them to acknowledge this

 

[atr0cious]

Goalposts

So people who bought the game should've had a time machine, or waited an extra two months before accusing anyone of deception?

And we need Namco to come forward and admit to lying?

This doesn't take into account uninformed moms buying this for their kids birthdays. Are they just out of pocket, because their kid doesn't browse NeoGaf?

 

[nbthedude]

I think my favorite thing about GAF this week is that you got indignant over somebody who is playing a game in his spare time because he's not playing it on a set schedule (and often doesn't play when he says he would), but you're completely okay with being lied to about the actual contents of a game from a company charging money for it and actually defending their right to lie to people.

What? No, I didn't get indignant. I just said it was irritating for saying you are going to do something and then not doing it. Yes saying something and doing another thing I think is rightly something to get upset about.

And again if someone can demonstrate evidence of Namco saying or implying "This is what the final console version of our game looks like" and that not be true, I think that's a reason to be irritated indeed. The problem here is we have a bunch of ambiguous footage that doesn't indicate that it is representative of final code or clearly indicate that Namco labeled it as console footage.

 

[nbthedude]

So people who bought the game should've had a time machine, or waited an extra two months before accusing anyone of deception?

And we need Namco to come forward and admit to lying?

They could wait an twenty minutes after it goes on sale and watch footage and see if that version looks good to them? Or they could buy it sight unseen and not have that option. Either seems fine by me. But you kind of forfeit concerns over what the final version looks and plays like when you buy it before the final version even exists.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Lol guys. What if the "nb" part in his username actually stands for NamcoBandai

Spoiler

I kid, of course.

I don't know, I think you're on to something.

Spoiler

 

[Nohar]

So people who bought the game should've had a time machine, or waited an extra two months before accusing anyone of deception?

And we need Namco to come forward and admit to lying?

Not to mention that no publisher in their right mind will admit to have intentionaly deceived their costumers.

You may be very hard to convince nbthedude, but plenty of people here have read all the informations available, made comparisons, and can rightfully think that there was a deception.

Good thing we don't have to convince you.

 

[Mkilbride]

Makes me quite weary tbh.

We know that the game drops frames almost constantly in PS3 and even 360. So the silky smooth 30fps" comments irks me. Also when he says the game looks "slightly worse" than the old version. lol

Since the BF4 deal I can't trust these guys and way less guys who have been paid by Namco to work on a guide.

Yeah, he's like "look how smooth it is and the graphics haven't changed much at all"

*Framerate proceeds to plummet as he looks at a single building, which looks blocky and you can see repeated textures*

"From Software is amazing, look how much they optimized it! I didn't believe they could!"

Like...seriously...we just watched his FPS plummet and he chose a place that was terrible graphic quality, so lol.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

Here is what I will say would convince me there was legitimate shady dealings going on:

1) If the PC version comes out and looks nothing like any of the footage revealing that all the footage up until release and including the official screenshots and box images after release were bogus.

Or

2) If someone can show that Namco intentionally mislead the press to make them think the versions they were looking at were console versions when it was really PC.

In either of those cases I would say, yes, that is good grounds for assuming they lied and/or misrepresented their game in an unfair manner. I just have not seen evidence to either of those things as of yet.

Sigh...

Oh yes. A standard retail PS3. Not even a devkit.

I watched one of the stations crash even and they simply reset the PS3 and the disc showed up on the XMB menu and everything. You could also use the PS button.

 

[Easy_D]

I don't know, I think you're on to something.

Spoiler

:lol. It was a joke, I don't want to start a witch hunt. I'd rather we just make him see our point of view through reason and well grounded arguments.

 

[tehPete]

...In either of those cases I would say, yes, that is good grounds for assuming they lied and/or misrepresented their game in an unfair manner. I just have not seen evidence to either of those things as of yet.

In a court of law, I'd feel much safer on the prosecution here than the defence. Do a blind trial of 10 people, show them videos of the same sections side by side (retail and preview), and see which they say looks better. That would prove the downgrade, and from there you simply need to show that they've not made any effort to include media from the final retail version of the game in any of their first-party promotional material.

Another factor is the date when the game went gold; I've had a quick search but can't find one, but if any media using the preview build was released after the Gold date.. lets just say I couldn't see it helping their case.

 

[RK9039]

Yeah, he's like "look how smooth it is and the graphics haven't changed much at all"

*Framerate proceeds to plummet as he looks at a single building, which looks blocky and you can see repeated textures*

"From Software is amazing, look how much they optimized it! I didn't believe they could!"

Like...seriously...we just watched his FPS plummet and he chose a place that was terrible graphic quality, so lol.

That's hilarious, and sad at the same time.

 

[nbthedude]

In a court of law, I'd feel much safer on the prosecution here than the defence. Do a blind trial of 10 people, show them videos of the same sections side by side (retail and preview), and see which they say looks better. That would prove the downgrade, and from there you simply need to show that they've not made any effort to include media from the final retail version of the game in any of their first-party promotional material.

Another factor is the date when the game went gold; I've had a quick search but can't find one, but if any media using the preview build was released after the Gold date.. lets just say I couldn't see it helping their case.

You couldn't just "show them the video." You'd have to also show them the "evidence" that Namco positioned this as representative of the final game and/or that it was representative of the console version. That was the entire point of my post.

 

[jacksepticeye]

http://youtu.be/_tbLxKKCNQM?t=1h52s

"The graphics have been slightly decelerated from the previous builds"

"You don't really notice the decrease in graphics too too much"

Yeah that's a load of shit, it's significantly different in places.
Though he does go on to talk about how him and ENB think the PC version will be the definitive version so here's hoping

 

[kingofthedead45]

In the 46 pages has anybody brought up that one thread where we got screen shots and everyone complained about how who ever was taking the screenshots sucked at it?

Just curious

 

[Durante]

The images posted in this thread with reduced brightness look slightly better, but they still don't have any specular mapping on the environment or high quality AO, both of which are plentiful in the original footage.

Just checking, will you buy Dark Souls 2 PC when it comes up? I mean, if you--or anyone else in here--are angry about this, that means you are angry about the *principle* behind it, right? The *lies* performed by Namco and FROM. So am I right in thinking that you won't be buying Dark Souls 2 in any way, shape, or form since you are obviously upset about how the producer/creator of the game has done something that you consider a betrayal to your principle as a gamer?

If the PC version looks similar enough to the footage it is being advertised with I see no problem. It's common practice to advertise multiplatform games using the best-looking version, and generally people don't complain much about that.

 

[Havel]

Not from the same area as the build as I'm not that far but here is 4 screens. Direct capture.


Brightness at half:

Brightness at zero:

The problem with this, as someone said above, is the fact you are losing detail and limiting the colour range.

Not to mention...this doesn't affect any of the other problems.

 

[tehPete]

You couldn't just "show them the video." You'd have to also show them the "evidence" that Namco positioned this as representative of the final game and/or that it was representative of the console version. That was the entire point of my post.

Metroid Squadron quoted a post stating that the preview they were playing was on a PS3; further, in the oft-referred to PSAccess video they explicitly state that they're playing the PS3 version. Assuming the game would have gone Gold in the last month, it comes back to proving that they've made no effort to show the finalized retail version after that time; if they've used the preview build to produce promotional material after the Gold date, it would hurt their case even more.

I should also point out, I have no formal legal background - just a decent moral compass and some common sense so I apologise if my attempts to frame my argument in legal terms leaves you screaming at the screen

 

[kingofthedead45]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=767774&highlight=dark+souls+screenshots

Here it is. This thread. Official screen shots released by namco, of the retail version. We knew it was coming out like this before hand. a whole month and half before hand. :l

*still warrants an explanation, I suppose.

 

[lazer_bean]

"The graphics have been slightly decelerated from the previous builds"

"You don't really notice the decrease in graphics too too much"

Yeah that's a load of shit, it's significantly different in places.
Though he does go on to talk about how him and ENB think the PC version will be the definitive version so here's hoping

Does he really know what he's talking about though ? Because at 1.03.40 he says he suspects the PC version "will also involve... hummm... something like DSfix or something along those lines"

If the PC version looks similar enough to the footage it is being advertised with I see no problem. It's common practice to advertise multiplatform games using the best-looking version, and generally people don't complain much about that.

apparently it's up to you to make it look good

 

[CheesecakeRecipe]

Does he really know what he's talking about though ? Because at 1.03.40 he says he suspects the PC version "will also involve... hummm... something like DSfix or something along those lines"

Listening to him talk, I suspect he knows dick-all about anything.

 

[Mkilbride]

Listening to him talk, I suspect he knows dick-all about anything.

"Graphics have de-celerated, PC users will be able to accelerate this graphics"

Agreed.

 

[Archaix]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=767774&highlight=dark+souls+screenshots

Here it is. This thread. Official screen shots released by namco, of the retail version. We knew it was coming out like this before hand. a whole month and half before hand. :l

*still warrants an explanation, I suppose.

Hadn't seen that thread, I guess they did release some shots of the newest build. Those shots should be what's on the box and on the Steam store page, though. I like how many people assume it's a really old build because of the lack of lighting though.

 

[Havel]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=767774&highlight=dark+souls+screenshots

Here it is. This thread. Official screen shots released by namco, of the retail version. We knew it was coming out like this before hand. a whole month and half before hand. :l

*still warrants an explanation, I suppose.

The problem with this is that were we supposed to just *assume* that the final game would be like this, and with changes to gameplay elements? We saw actual gameplay of some of those areas on the PlayStation channel just a few days before. How were we to know? What is right, what is wrong? Because they look completely different.

From did the exact same thing with Dark Souls 1, except the press release screens actually looked WORSE than the final game. For some reason they have always been like that.

 

[soontroll]

Hadn't seen that thread, I guess they did release some shots of the newest build. Those shots should be what's on the box and on the Steam store page, though. I like how many people assume it's a really old build because of the lack of lighting though.

Unless the Steam store shots are actually representative *fingers crossed*.