Red Liquorice
Member
Noob Zweihanderbro never seen a Mail Breaker?
#DarkSoulsDowngrade and #YOULIED \\ a.k.a You got some splainin' to do, Namco
- Thread starter Havel
- Start date
No, I have not experienced any issues that would indicate that.
See You Next Wednesday
Banned
Stop being silly.
Well, Stet said his histogram picked up the black only from the UI outline on the covenant icon at the top left of the screen.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=104307183&postcount=359
Your telling me that small thin outline is the only proof in the entire the game, that it is displaying at the correct color range.
Despite all the contradictory proof & evidence showing otherwise.
That there is no flaw in your histogram or in the screen grab or capture device that took it.
Nor the fact that NamcoBandai officially released the prologue trailer online & for every one to see, yet it without a doubt displayed at a different color range than the same prologue that viewable at the start of the game.
(I watched both on my 360).
So you think it was the developers intention to have 99.9% of the game & on screen content not be able to properly display black other than that small outline of UI icon.
Even thought they released videos online promoting the game that has a visibly different black & contrast range.
Again I'm posting photographic evidence
This is the PC direct grab of the game.
This is a picture of the game using my settings to specifically crush black levels in other games.
This is a picture of the game using the correct color range settings that doesn't crush blacks in other games.
(sorry couldn't find a torch that that area to match the PC pic).
Again, my TV is calibrated, I don't have any dynamic contrast or auto dimming options on to distort the picture.
The camera slightly messed up the color tones, but that is basically 90% of what I see when I took them.
Porting the engine to Next-Gen is already way more complex than overhaul the lighting re-add light sources and geometry.
So I guarantee that if a PS4 version comes out IT WILL have those kinds of details restored. They will need something nice to show if they are porting it, and like in Tomb Raider's case they'll need that special something over the standard versions to sell it. It's even possible that the decision to strip off the game was made in light of those plans.
As if they deliberately gimped the current version just so they can sell it all over again in a few months in some sort of "Director's Cut" that restores the "original developer vision".
The question is only whether or not the PC version will already do that, or if a PS4 version will actually come out or not. But if the PC comes out and it's the same of PS3, then the probabilities for a superior PS4 version would go up considerably, imho. It's just plain stupid to have a good engine and good environments and not use them at all.
So I guarantee that if a PS4 version comes out IT WILL have those kinds of details restored. They will need something nice to show if they are porting it, and like in Tomb Raider's case they'll need that special something over the standard versions to sell it. It's even possible that the decision to strip off the game was made in light of those plans.
As if they deliberately gimped the current version just so they can sell it all over again in a few months in some sort of "Director's Cut" that restores the "original developer vision".
The question is only whether or not the PC version will already do that, or if a PS4 version will actually come out or not. But if the PC comes out and it's the same of PS3, then the probabilities for a superior PS4 version would go up considerably, imho. It's just plain stupid to have a good engine and good environments and not use them at all.
thatmariolover
Member
I've been playing the 360 version and it's pretty unpolished. For as small as the areas are you're exploring, the performance is pretty inconsistent and the game just doesn't look that good. That said, I'm still playing it, so it can't be that bad.
I do think the gripers have a point, though. It just doesn't feel like it was given the time it deserved and it looks radically different from how it was previewed.
GreatestHits
Member
Yes, unfortunately I bought the PS3 version. Add my voice to the list of people that you may or may not have heard call this a beta. It sounds extreme when you play the game on it's own merit, as it is nowhere nearly as buggy as most betas from development, but compared to the footage we've been fooled to believe, this plays and looks just like a beta. I don't know what term would really encompass the hit detection issues, sound issues, heavily downgraded graphics, framerate, etc.
CountAntonius
Member
I wonder how many issues can be fixed with better hardware? More and more it seems they overshot the console version by leading with PC and had to make a lot of sacrifices to get it to be "playable".
thewhitehawk
Member
I disagree with you in that regard.
You see all the info between 0 and 15? That's stuff. If it had been limited, there would be none there. That's the point. There could be no "small thin outline" that was black, because there would be no black. Only above 15. You also see all the stuff in the histogram that happens between 0 and 15? That's what you'll crush. In this case, that's nearly 20% of the pixels in the picture.
Isn't it a bit of a stretch to say there has to be a flaw in the histogram or screen grab? What evidence besides "the way it looks" is there?
You may find it similar to the original. No matter, you're still crushing blacks and whites. If you wish to live with that aesthetic (and just look at all the detail that's gone from the crushing in the picture you posted), then that's fine. But it's not a fix. It's a way to make it look more like it did during promo.
This is NOT colour analysis.
This is proper colour analysis.
min: 0,0,0
max: 255,255,255
See You Next Wednesday, I can't really see a reason why you cling to your anecdotal evidence, in light of proper responses like this one
See You Next Wednesday
Banned
Those original videos from 2013 had completely redesigned level structure & textures!
Rubble that completely blocked your way has been replaced with a door.
Gated prison windows that leads you to a dead end is now replaced with a doorway that continues to a new zone.
One part had a open passage with nothing blocking the way, now that part is locked behind a door that you need to kill the boss to progress.
As for textures, in one video from TGS I noticed
Inferior bridge textures.
Changed, but indifferent hallway textures.
Vastly superior ground textures with the lizards (why they changed this, as it couldn't have affect performance, I don't know).
The E3 & TGS gameplay used unintended, unfinished, incomplete placeholders & assets for a beta showing .
They won't include it back for the PC version or if they port it to XB1/PS4.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
The PC version may still have those textures. We saw the comparisson between one of the steam images and the current gen version and there was considerably differences between both set of textures (and lighting it seems)
See You Next Wednesday
Banned
Are you kidding? THE ONLY proof they had to back up their claim was these black lines from a sub(?) 720p direct grab from an unknown capture device.
Your saying their testing is flawless.
The fact is, there is no direct screenshots from the console in existence that can prove any other point in the game is displaying any 0.0.0 black values.
But the crushed black pic I took looks nearly identical to the offical PC direct screenshot. The one that is well lit has no atmosphere & can't possibly have the torches light up a completely dark underground passage by that much.
Sure the textures on the ground below are bad in the final build, but the textures for the stone walkway looks miles better in the new one
http://i.imgur.com/p5SnTU9.png
http://i.imgur.com/mLWfLC5.png
So their going to be cherry picking what stay & what doesn't from a year old build & from the final version?
I'll just wait for the Next-Gen version of the game, as unfortunate as that is. I'd rather get the best experience out of it my first time through. I have plenty of other games to play, so the wait won't be that bad.
It's just such a shame what happened here. I hope we eventually get an answer that isn't just some blanket statement about the budget or hardware.
It's just such a shame what happened here. I hope we eventually get an answer that isn't just some blanket statement about the budget or hardware.
Lalalandia
Member
That's kind of the point though, that 'thin black outline' is being output by the engine, if the rest of the game doesn't show that black level it's a design decision. Stretching the colour space from normal to full will create darker blacks but you can't add another 32 bits of colour range out of the engine by doing that. It can make the game darker partially restoring the black to the darkness but they need to change the engine to do it right. What has been lost from a lot of your shots is the subtle details at the light where dark greys are being forced to black.
Are you kidding? THE ONLY proof they had to back up their claim was these black lines from a sub(?) 720p direct grab from an unknown capture device.
Your saying their testing is flawless.
The fact is, there is no direct screenshots from the console in existence that can prove any other point in the game is displaying any 0.0.0 black values.
I'm saying this:
Is proof that what you see on screen isn't black. Not that the game is unable to render black. You see the way there's a darker object in the "black"? That's because the developers have used a technique where they can accentuate objects even better in the dark by having "black" not be "black" and therefore cheat to create a deeper effect of blackness. You think you've conclusively proven that that should be black, when the only thing you've proven is that that part isn't black. Actually, the color you've used to "conclusively prove" that this is limited, is in fact 16, 18, 5". Already there you have a 5 value, which isn't possible with limited. You're using a layman's interpretation to talk about something where you aren't really knowledgeable. You're arguing with Durante with some gimmick you've done in MS Paint.
And yes, if that part is in fact black on what you're alleging being sub 720p, possibly introducing compression, then it is most definitely rendered as black. Even if it's only that part, it's conclusive evidence that the game is able to render 0,0,0. That means it's not limited, as limited is, per definition, not able to render below 16.
Do you know how grey 15, 15, 15 really is? Because you don't seem to know that.
Here's an image starting with 0,0,0 then 1,1,1, then 2,2,2. So, count 16 of those square upwards. See all the first 15? That's all the contrast you're killing in your game, and despite having been rebuked, you implore others to do, too.
Fried Food
Banned
I've been out all day, can someone tell me if PS3 range set to FULL is still the best way to play the game?
GreatestHits
Member
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
If you want to play the whole game using a torch, sure.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
EDIT: Switched to vilmer_'s BMP above.
There are three possibilities, here:
1. That 'PC' shot is from an old build which doesn't exist anymore.
2. Someone at Namco/From had fun with Photoshop and it looks completely different in game.
3. That actually is the PC version to be released. The lighting looks SIGNIFICANTLY different from the console version (semi-confirming the lighting is in the PC version?), and also there is MUCH more foliage on the walls, as well as AO and better textures.
Take your pick. Can't wait for From's/Namco's response next week.
Look at the comparison between that PC screen and the PS3 screen. The difference on the texture is quite significant. So the possibility of having quite different texturing is not that far-fetched. Dosn't necesary means that the reveal texturing and geomtry will be on PC, but is more than possible that we see way better and different textures on the PC version.
Keep your HDMI range to full on PS3 and TV. See You Next Wednesday's "proof" has long since been disputed, refuted and rebuked. If you wish to test it yourself, if you have the ability to change HDMI range on your TV (called Black level or such), try setting it to "low" instead of "normal", and see if there's any change on the Dark Souls II intro screen. If the game didn't support full range, there'd be a HUGE difference. You can see how huge by the picture I posted above.
Zomba13
Member
Are you kidding? THE ONLY proof they had to back up their claim was these black lines from a sub(?) 720p direct grab from an unknown capture device.
Your saying their testing is flawless.
The fact is, there is no direct screenshots from the console in existence that can prove any other point in the game is displaying any 0.0.0 black values.
But the crushed black pic I took looks nearly identical to the offical PC direct screenshot. The one that is well lit has no atmosphere & can't possibly have the torches light up a completely dark underground passage by that much.
Sure the textures on the ground below are bad in the final build, but the textures for the stone walkway looks miles better in the new one
http://i.imgur.com/p5SnTU9.png
http://i.imgur.com/mLWfLC5.png
So their going to be cherry picking what stay & what doesn't from a year old build & from the final version?
The fact that there is a screen grab from the retail console version that has black values below 15 anywhere on the image shows it's in the correct colour range. Doesn't matter if it's on the UI or a texture on a big ugly monster or in the darkness of a cave.
Fried Food
Banned
I mean but wasn't that the original design?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Yeah, but they clearly changed the ambient illumination so now is not possible on the normal settings (except on a couple of places). If you want to have the original mechanic back at the cost of losing some detail in the colour range, do so.
Is probably the best option to play the game like that.
Lalalandia
Member
Put it this way, you could wear sunglasses while playing too but it's not the same thing as the game doing it right in the first place. Futzing with the range can achieve similar effects to it being right but brings its own problems to the table, whether they are a deal breaker is an opinion, try it and decide for yourself.
Here's how the game looks:
Here's what happens when you put your TV to limited:
Do you see all the things you could previously see that are now gone? That's all the stuff that was in the 0-15 and 240-255 range. You may think it looks more aesthetically pleasing, but this refutes the point that the game is in any way glitched, outputting only limited RGB. If you use limited range when playing this game, you are crushing blacks and white. You may choose to do so, but the game outputs in full HDMI range. You may be able to recreate it more the way it used to be, but you are removing tons of detail from your picture. If the lighting was purposefully done dark, they'd utilize an exponential filter, instead, preserving some of the detail, but still making it appear darker. I did that here:
As you can see, if they did that, it would appear darker, but still preserve detail.
Here's what happens when you put your TV to limited:
Do you see all the things you could previously see that are now gone? That's all the stuff that was in the 0-15 and 240-255 range. You may think it looks more aesthetically pleasing, but this refutes the point that the game is in any way glitched, outputting only limited RGB. If you use limited range when playing this game, you are crushing blacks and white. You may choose to do so, but the game outputs in full HDMI range. You may be able to recreate it more the way it used to be, but you are removing tons of detail from your picture. If the lighting was purposefully done dark, they'd utilize an exponential filter, instead, preserving some of the detail, but still making it appear darker. I did that here:
As you can see, if they did that, it would appear darker, but still preserve detail.
That depends on the TV though, doesn't it?
My TV actually crushes blacks setting it to Full on PS3, and I have full range (or at least I think I do, I don't know a lot about this) setting it to Limited.
I use a Panasonic Plasma, btw.
See You Next Wednesday
Banned
DO YOU KNOW WHAT GAME YOU ARE PLAYING?
That was the entire point of lighting scones in the game.
There literally is zero point in them now, every area, even the darkest are now clearly visible.
The whole reveal had you fighting those turtle shelled enemies in pure darkness from the demos, with only the visible light being the torch in your hand.
That's like changing the color range to limited so you could clearly see the area in the Tomb of Giants in Dark Souls 1.
That's probably the reason why the last minute changes happened. They figured having to carry a torch around to navigate the game like in the E3 & TGS demos would be too difficult, so they changed it up to make the game more accessible.
Some older screens would only support limited. I think this was more a PC monitor thing, though. Full means that it'll use 0-255, whereas limited is 15-240. That means if your TV only supports limited, everything between 0 and 15 will be rendered as complete black, instead of the nuances of grey you saw me posting some posts up. If your PS3 is set to Limited, but your TV supports full, then the PS3 will only output from 15, which means everything will be grey, since it never goes to fully black.
So yes, if your TV only supports limited, then it'll crush blacks if you set PS3 to Full. However, if you have a flatscreen that's less than 8 years old, chances are you'll have a setting called something like "black level" which is what this is.
Most of us have speculated it was due to performance concerns. Lights that cast dynamic shadows seem to tank the performance. Requiring the torch to progress in so many areas was probably a detriment to gameplay overall. You also see dynamic lighting turned off in some areas, such as some regions that were in the network test.
Performance concerns won't effect the PC and, inevitable, next-gen console version.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
That has nothing to do with the fact the lighting looks MUCH worse from that TGS demo. Alongside other downgrades, which is the main point of the thread.
The last minute changes in the ambient lighting to eliminate the necesity of the torch in many areas (may be) unrelated to the downgrade. Although it seems that, since the game wasn't designed with that in mind, highlights the visual inconsistency.
Then you need to change your god damned argument. Because this game outputs full HDMI. You're doing two things, now. You're trying to prove the game doesn't output full range, but now you're arguing that players SHOULD crush the blacks "because that's how it was meant". I think the way the game plays is how it is meant to be played. If you wish to play it with crushed blacks, and not proper nuances of black (look at the third picture in my post) then feel free to do that. Just stop spreading lies.
That's exactly how an eye works, though. If you've ever carried a torch in a pitch black place, you know you can only see like 10 feet ahead of you.
Wolfe
Member
Did you even read my post? I acknowledged that there are areas in the similar vein to Tomb of Giants that make great use of the torch, doesn't change the fact that so much more of the game was obviously designed with this exact mechanic in mind.
That gif where the character opens the door and descends down the staircase is a perfect example. Right in front of that door and down the hallway past the staircase there are 4 stationary torches, if you light them it looks great but if you don't you can actually see better in the darkness and all 3 of the enemies down there are completely visible.
I still had a blast playing the game but I'm not denying that I'm slightly disappointed seeing these stationary torches placed around in areas where they no longer feel like something I should go out of my way to take care of. Instead I ran back and lit them after the fact just so I could see how it looked with them all lit up.
Fried Food
Banned
Those first groups of pictures look bad. Why would I want to see that unnatural grey blob when it's supposed to be pitch black?
You don't need to see every last detail and I would argue your worse off for having to see that immersion breaking grey wash out imagery. Play the way you want, I think it looks better with PS3 On full range.
You don't need to see every last detail and I would argue your worse off for having to see that immersion breaking grey wash out imagery. Play the way you want, I think it looks better with PS3 On full range.
See You Next Wednesday
Banned
Bull and shit, if this was true the opening CGI cinematic would match the same video Namco has released to the internet.
If they specifically changed the in game ambient lighting, it would not have affected the CGI movies & menu screens, but it does. It wash out all of that.
If someone can capture a direct feed of the opening CGI, I'm pretty sure a histogram will show that image is not displaying full black.
Cute. They stated like 150 times that there had no plans at all on bringing it to next gen, the next gen player base is actually really low and it takes a lot of time and effort to bring a game to 2 platform. By that time they would be revealing their next game.
Wishful thinking is nice but at some point you have to wake up. At this point you are better ponying up for the pc version and getting a ps4 controller because that's the best you'll get
GreatestHits
Member
Then don't ask how you should play the game, you found your personal preference. Truth is they washed out all the graphics on purpose, so you're losing detail but gaining the darkness back. Neither is a fix, it's just a preference, working with what we got.
See you next wednesday, I'm really not trying to be mean dude, but most of what people are saying is going over your head, bro.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Of course they are saying there are no plans, they want to maximize current gen sales. You think that a lot of owners for both gens wouldn't wait for the next gen version if they knew before hand that there's one in the works?
And next gen userbase is low and yet Thief sold more on next-gen than old-gen. There's also the fact that the Tomb Raider PS4/Xbone version was a total success. Every publisher knows that you're losing money in 2014 if you aren't making a next gen version of your current old gen games....
I didn't see a direct capture of the CGI, but your theory that only the UI displays full range and the rest of the game is set on limited dosn't make any sense.
occam's razor: makes more sense that they changed the ambient lighting that some incredible abnormality in how the game displays it's colours.
Pick your targets better, friend. Grief.exe is very keen on the PC version, as am I, yet we are both convinced that a PS4/XBone port is forthcoming.
Man, you are full of inconsistent shit. First you're yelling at me because "DO YOU KNOW WHAT GAME YOU'RE PLAYING?", saying I should purposefully crush the blacks of my game. Then you go on to say that it isn't outputting correctly. You're spreading misinformation and lies. If you could at least just stick to one idea, then I'd be happy. If you wish to promote that the game now is too bright and you should purposefully crush the blacks, then go right ahead. Oh, yeah, you'll crush the whites, too. But if you're trying to argue that the game isn't outputting black, then please go back and look at the pictures I posted. If there was no information below 15, then everything would be grey and there would be no loss of image detail.
You seem to have no grasp on what limited range really is, or what it would do if it actually was in effect. You changed some setting and thought it looked better, and since you've incoherently rambled about how the game is glitched. Durante has proven you wrong, but you have the audacity to say his histogram must be broken. If you knew what not outputting at full range would mean, you'd understand why there would be exactly no loss of image information when I did the conversion I did. But you don't. Yet you continue to spread misinformation. Your ignorance exhausts me. I'm out.
For all you others wondering what you should do with this game, you can choose to eliminate about 20% of the image and replace it with pitch black, if you think it's right. However, the game is not outputting incorrectly, so you are purposefully altering the way the game looks. That's perfectly fine, just know that that's what you're doing.
CountAntonius
Member
As assumptions. If there is demand they can port over the PC version without too much hassle but I'm sure this depends on the sales of the current gen and PC version. I don't believe however that it's already being worked on. I do think we will see it eventually but not anytime soon.
I am a PC player, just reading the industry and where it is going.
'No plans,' is an industry term for this is exactly our plan, but we aren't ready to release any information.
butman
Member
Such is the desperation that some people are changing the TV settings? That is embarrassing.
That will not bring back:
The real-time lightning
The HQ textures
The smooth gameplay
The bridge dragons
The another castle
The torches
The lava
Finally, the DARK.
This game should be called Bright Souls II
That will not bring back:
The real-time lightning
The HQ textures
The smooth gameplay
The bridge dragons
The another castle
The torches
The lava
Finally, the DARK.
This game should be called Bright Souls II
masterkajo
Member
This made me chuckle... then I remembered why we are here and I got sad again.
The dragons as you cross the bridge are still in the game. They just fly about a lot.
http://youtu.be/4fWTtnj15s4?t=16m14s
Ps3 + 360 user base is around 200-220 million, dark souls 2 sold under 2 million (will sell more but as of right now) so that's 1 game per 100 consoles if you are generous.
ps4 + xbones Worldwide sale is around 11 million. So that's what 110k copies + 20-80k(anyone's guess) from the people buying it twice on consoles. If you are optimistic and since ps4 and xbone players don't have much to play it could be bigger but not so much.
Just think about it, does it worth their precious time and handwork on porting an entire engine and the game to 2 completely new platforms that never worked on instead of working on another title. It's not copy paste, it's 50-60 people working full time for a bit more then a year and half to do so (per platform). sound not so much economically viable, even if it is their work is better at working on newer games build from the ground up for next gen/pc.
We had a PC port because pc people where loud about it for a long time, does not seem like that for next gen. People who want a better version will double dip for the pc one that that will be the end of it. The exact quote was not "has no plans" but "has not put thought into it" that seems to me like there won't be one.
See You Next Wednesday
Banned
Dude, calm down. I wasn't yelling, just emphasizing that dark atmosphere in Dark Souls is pretty much its trademark.
The fact is menus & cgi are "washed out" compared to the official press release of the same exact CGI proves that they did not specifically tweak the lighting for the gameplay game. They just whitewashed over the entire color settings of the game.
I'm still having serious doubts the about the histogram just picking up a small part of the UI (not even the entire UI) as proof the game has some kind of full range output.
Durante doesn't have the game & is going from second hand material.
The few people who have direct capture seem to have stopped posting & are probably enjoying the game.
I'm getting tired of arguing, I'm just going to enjoy playing the game.
The eventual PC version looks like it won't ship with the picture washed out & Namco might even soon release a patch reversing the console washed out picture as well
If anyone wants the game to look like this (minus the lighting placement changes) & not the washed out picture
Then follow my instructions on changing the color range.
I'm out.
Lasthope106
Member
Nope. Nope. Nope. That is not right Sire.
You are right on the logic for the rest of your post though. I just had to give you a hard time.
Yes, the install base is incredibly low. That is to be expected for such a niche game.