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[Sami+]

I finally got and listened to Chico tape number 4.

The last minute or so of that tape...kind of hit me the wrong way. I dunno. It goes from forced sex between Chico and Paz to them both in their cage and Paz trying to initiate more? I'm not sure what to make of that, that seems like a really odd way to frame that whole situation. Not to mention Chico is like 13 and Paz is what 25 or something?

I never had a problem with the fact that their was a rape "scene" (or whatever you want to call it) in the game, and I already knew there was going to be some forced sex aspect to the tape, but that aspect at the end of the tape...hmmm. Don't like it much. At the very least it seems extremely tacky.

I think she was trying to comfort him after that experience. After all, he's still just a kid (I think he's 15 or 16 at this point). He likes her a lot so he probably felt really guilty about doing that forcefully, and she wanted him to know that she wasn't upset at him.

That's what it came off as to me, anyway.

 

[AppleMIX]

I think she was trying to comfort him after that experience. After all, he's still just a kid (I think he's 15 or 16 at this point). He likes her a lot so he probably felt really guilty about doing that forcefully, and she wanted him to know that she wasn't upset at him.

That's what it came off as to me, anyway.

13 according to the Metal Gear Wiki.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

That, or Paz is a really fucked up person.

 

[KittenMaster]

Characters like Chico are why it's great that PW and GZ are good to not be afraid of making new characters (I still consider Skullface a new character from an un-expanded part of the backstory).

I wonder how what happens to Chico will affect Big Boss. BB genuinely did want the best for the kid (incidentally making the closest he's ever been to a father figure we've seen so far) but it just didn't happen. Maybe

Spoiler

Big Boss will get terrified of seeing himself as a father to Solid Snake, and distances himself from his son should a repeat of that happen. </fanfiction>

 

[foxtrot3d]

Characters like Chico are why it's great that PW and GZ are good to not be afraid of making new characters (I still consider Skullface a new character from an un-expanded part of the backstory).

I wonder how what happens to Chico will affect Big Boss. BB genuinely did want the best for the kid (incidentally making the closest he's ever been to a father figure we've seen so far) but it just didn't happen. Maybe

Spoiler

Big Boss will get terrified of seeing himself as a father to Solid Snake, and distances himself from his son should a repeat of that happen. </fanfiction>

I'm more curious to how Chico will be in TPP assuming he survived, that whole ordeal had to seriously fuck him up.

 

[shawnhi]

You have to play it in some sort of imaging thing or other device. Steganography or something like that.

Alright... this has me interested in the playing the game some more after beating all of the missions and getting all of the extras. Can someone use some Google powers and figure this out? I'm really hurting to get some kind of tidbit on the story in TPP that we haven't seen in the trailers...

 

[plasmawave]

So what's your opinion on this? Do you think it was poorly handled?

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2014/03/...+twitter&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

 

[RedAssedApe]

Edit: hah beaten!

So the editor who reviewed the game for IGN wrote a follow-up regarding the ending:

But in my review of the game, I criticised its ending for being &#8216;unearned;&#8217; a word that felt right at the time, but perhaps didn&#8217;t explain my position adequately to those who have subsequently asked me what writer Hideo Kojima might have done differently to &#8216;earn&#8217; an ending where a girl gets a bomb shoved up either her A: vagina or B: anus.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/25/whats-wrong-with-metal-gear-solid-5-ground-zeroes-ending

I tend to stay away from this kind of stuff that might result in my inserting foot in mouth due to poor articulation...but what say you guys?

 

[plasmawave]

I don't get her point.
The point Kojima is trying to show is, Skull Face and XOF are nasty group of people who will do anything to achieve their goal. They are ruthless MF'ers.
He might be the most cruel villain in MGS history.

 

[Sami+]

13 according to the Metal Gear Wiki.

Oh. Well, point still stands I guess. He's just a kid.

That, or Paz is a really fucked up person.

lol, I don't think it's the latter. ... I mean she is pretty conflicted but in the end she seemed to have her heart in the right place before she died. I never expected to after Peace Walker, but after listening to Chico's tapes (her tapes in PW still didn't really change my mind) I felt genuinely sorry for her.

Characters like Chico are why it's great that PW and GZ are good to not be afraid of making new characters (I still consider Skullface a new character from an un-expanded part of the backstory).

I wonder how what happens to Chico will affect Big Boss. BB genuinely did want the best for the kid (incidentally making the closest he's ever been to a father figure we've seen so far) but it just didn't happen. Maybe

Spoiler

Big Boss will get terrified of seeing himself as a father to Solid Snake, and distances himself from his son should a repeat of that happen. </fanfiction>

Agreed. I really want to see what happens to Chico as well - he knows how badly he's screwed all of his friends by breaking under the torture, and by TPP he'll have had to live with that guilt for nine whole years.

 

[mullet2000]

So what's your opinion on this? Do you think it was poorly handled?

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2014/03/...+twitter&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

I didn't really have a problem with the ending, though I can see why someone might. Chico Tape #4 was more problematic to me, as I state about 10 posts above this one.

I don't really agree with her points though. She states ". In one instance, rape is used as a reward in a side objective: those who are prepared to trawl through the map and collect all the hidden audio tapes will find one where they can listen to Paz being sexually assaulted..." I don't really think that's fair. That's like saying discovering information is an "reward". Is it a reward, for example, to overhear two guards say something? Would you call audio logs in other games "rewards"? I would say not really. The tapes are just a method of discovering information about the story, not really a "reward".

Furthermore I don't like this article's tone very much. Quotes like these:

Rather than interpreting my critique as the work of a feminazi (the insult du jour).

And hey, if you disagree with me, if you really feel like your goofy, beloved Metal Gear is better off going down this road, that&#8217;s fine too.

Are realllllllly "talking down to your audience" types of quotes. Writing like that is pretty insulting to your audience.

I agree that Paz is pretty much 100% a plot device in this game though, with little character to call her own. Then again I'd say the same for almost every character in this specific game, because there's very little time given to any of the characters.

 

[Sami+]

The article completely lost me once she went down the feminism route - the way she talks about it implies that Paz was the only one who suffered sexual harassment in the game and that it served as nothing more than an easy way to give the male protagonist a motive for his quest, which... couldn't really be further from the truth?

Paz's death and presence in Ground Zeroes is by no means a catalyst for anything Big Boss is doing in The Phantom Pain. Quite the opposite, actually. The only one who really gets anything out of it is Skullface, who not only used her as a Trojan Horse for his bombs, but also got Cypher's location from her. In that sense, what difference does it make whether she's male or female? She's a spy and thus knows Cypher's location. That's what Skullface wanted from her.

Even if the "hero's quest" she's referring to was saving Paz in Operation Trojan Horse, that's not really accurate either. Snake's objective was to save Chico first and foremost, and the only reason he bothered to get Paz alongside him was so that they could use her skillset and identity to their advantage. I'd go so far as to say that the premise treated her quite well as a female, seeing as how the primary objective of the mission was to save a boy first, then Paz, not because she's female or whatever else, but because she's a very knowledgeable and capable individual in her own right. It'd have been literally exactly the same had she been male (except that the second bomb would have went in "his" anus for sure I guess).

Even then, from a story perspective it sets up quite a few things as well. Nothing in the game happens for no reason as she seems to imply - the tapes provide a lot of insight on all three characters involved, and give the player a more comprehensive feel for them. Of course, it's totally fair to not include those since they were optional and hard to find, but then, isn't it a bit unfair to talk about the torture sequence at face value since that was also in the tapes? Paz is given quite a bit of substantial characterization through them.

The only thing the ending suffered from was the brevity with which it arrived, but that's just what happens when we get a game this short. It's hard to really think about it as the opening act of MGSV when it's a retail release on its own.

 

[RedAssedApe]

And hey, if you disagree with me, if you really feel like your goofy, beloved Metal Gear is better off going down this road, that’s fine too.

Makes me think about when Kojima released the Love Deterrence music video and received backlash from the other direction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO_5R_DMCJA

Apparently, Kojima has received opinions of the form "The image is wrong. This is not Metal Gear." Kojima responded to this by saying that the real game will be completely different and will surprise players with its seriousness. The PV was made by the younger Kojima Productions demo staff as a playful exercise with thoughts of Paz, he explained.

There might have been even more nerd rage if the original plan for the PV had gone through. Apparently, the original idea was to have Snake and his crew dance, squat and do pushups to the music. This idea was tossed after consultations with the full Peace Walker.

Seems like people want to pigeon hole Metal Gear into being this one singular thing. I don't understand why you can't be a little goofy but still be a very mature game at its core. I've always thought the series dealt with some mature themes.

 

[Sub_Level]

Makes me think about when Kojima released the Love Deterrence music video and received backlash from the other direction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO_5R_DMCJA

It's all fun and jpop until you get fiddled.

 

[Love Deterrence]

It's all fun and jpop until you get fiddled.

/dead

 

[plasmawave]

It's all fun and jpop until you get fiddled.

PW was pretty anime.



.... baka ///

 

[Sami+]

It's all fun and jpop until you get fiddled.

Hahaha

Love you guys. xD

 

[AppleMIX]

Paz's death and presence in Ground Zeroes is by no means a catalyst for anything Big Boss is doing in The Phantom Pain. Quite the opposite, actually. The only one who really gets anything out of it is Skullface, who not only used her as a Trojan Horse for his bombs, but also got Cypher's location from her. In that sense, what difference does it make whether she's male or female? She's a spy and thus knows Cypher's location. That's what Skullface wanted from her.

Big Boss literally says: "So what's the plan? Silence her before we're comprised?"

If anything, this was meant to set up Skull Face as the antagonist.

 

[Giza]

Edit: hah beaten!

So the editor who reviewed the game for IGN wrote a follow-up regarding the ending:



http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/25/whats-wrong-with-metal-gear-solid-5-ground-zeroes-ending

I tend to stay away from this kind of stuff that might result in my inserting foot in mouth due to poor articulation...but what say you guys?

the whole article is weird, seems like a first time player of the series or someone who clearly doesn't get it. Also, this isn't an ending, this is only the beginning. Can't write articles like this when the full game hasn't even released.

 

[Sami+]

Big Boss literally says: "So what's the plan? Silence her before we're compromised?"

If anything, this was meant to set up Skull Face as the antagonist.

Right, exactly. So then, Big Boss has to rescue her in order to use her for informational purposes, Skull Face kidnapped her in the first place for precisely that, Chico's entire reason for being there to begin with was an attempt to rescue her, Skull Face now knows Cypher's location and also used her to attack Big Boss and Kaz, and Chico has gone through a ton of character development due to what transpired at Camp Omega.

Her presence in the game is pretty pivotal to quite a few things, and the suffering she goes through is far from pointless.

 

[mullet2000]

It's all fun and jpop until you get fiddled.

"Fiddle" is seriously the greatest thing to come out of this game.

 

[The Silver]

I wouldn't be surprised if Kaz was planning a little torture session(nothing as bad as Skully obviously) for Paz as well.

if she isn't "cooperative", there's still plenty room for her in the ocean

 

[Gun Animal]

Makes me think about when Kojima released the Love Deterrence music video and received backlash from the other direction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO_5R_DMCJA



Seems like people want to pigeon hole Metal Gear into being this one singular thing. I don't understand why you can't be a little goofy but still be a very mature game at its core. I've always thought the series dealt with some mature themes.

rapidly alternating tone between cartoonishly goofy and gutwrenchingly somber is a distinctly metal gear thing, it's been that way since MGS1. One second you're oogling butts and the next second you're going on a ten minute spiel about nuclear proliferation. It's also something the series has been criticized for since day one, and something that also gets criticism in any other medium because it's easy to notice and write about. If I have any complaints about the direction MGS is heading in, it would be that the political commentary is becoming less and less progressive and sophisticated, more obvious and juvenile. Take a look for yourself:

MGS1:
Tying themes of fate and lineage into some genetic pop-science pulled out of Dawkin's 'The Selfish Gene Theory' while at the same time educating players on the realities of post-cold-war nuclear proliferation.

Sons of Liberty:
A reflection on Dawkin's idea of "Memetics" or the idea of comparing the passing (or not passing) of human culture and history to genetics/natural selection, tying it in to the implications of the way that digital information and the internet were/are changing the way that human culture and history are being stored and passed on, all while criticizing violent western videogames/movies for glamorizing the military and indoctrinating children, and commenting on the state of art and storytelling within games as a medium. This was in 2001.

Snake Eater:
The cold war was stupid and all conflicts are temporary? That's all I read out of it.

Guns of the Patriots:
War in the 21st century only exists to support an industry that by all rights should no longer exist. Other games already did this years prior.

Peace Walker:
????

Ground Zeroes:
Guantanamo Bay should have been shut down by now??? Something about rape????

I miss literate Kojima. Dude needs to read some more books.

 

[TAJ]

I finally got and listened to Chico tape number 4.

The last minute or so of that tape...kind of hit me the wrong way. I dunno. It goes from forced sex between Chico and Paz to them both in their cage and Paz trying to initiate more? I'm not sure what to make of that, that seems like a really odd way to frame that whole situation. Not to mention Chico is like 13 and Paz is what 25 or something?

Whaaaaat? OK, I just looked at some info on Peace Walker and if it wasn't already clear enough Kojima is a pedophile.
"But she's totes legal!"
jlawyeahok.gif

 

[KittenMaster]

Makes me think about when Kojima released the Love Deterrence music video and received backlash from the other direction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO_5R_DMCJA



Seems like people want to pigeon hole Metal Gear into being this one singular thing. I don't understand why you can't be a little goofy but still be a very mature game at its core. I've always thought the series dealt with some mature themes.

It's not a true war drama if there isn't a J-Idol to spice things up.

 

[wanders]

Okay just cleared the game, hype for Phantom Pain is white hot now. I don't wanna wait a year...

Since this was the art in the DLC thing in the Ground Zeroes box, is it safe to assume this will be the cover for Phantom Pain?

Interesting that he doesnt have the robo arm yet

 

[adamsapple]

Interesting that he doesnt have the robo arm yet

That would be the chronological next-event i guess, since he would wake up in the hospital ( ? )

I don't think you see his left-arm side in the ER scene with Kaz asking "what about him ?" so you can't assess what kind of damage his left arm has at that time.

 

[Chinner]

If chico had sex with paz shouldn't he have... felt the bomb?

 

[Valkyri von Thanatos]

Someone would have said it earlier, but the bombs are planted in the last tape. He would have noticed the "V" too.

As for Paz/Chico in the cage... I think this is definitely alluding to her not really knowing how to relate to people. She puts on an act, but her "true self" is really something very twisted (not that she is intentionally trying to be squicky). It's clear Zero shaped her in a very specific way to follow his orders, and that could have left her emotionally tone deaf or something.

One thing that's important to note is that both Paz and Chico were effectively raped. Paz was clearly the focus, but it was also a violation of Chico, he was being tortured too. That's something that it seems the IGN writer ignored.

Edit: Yeah, when I first discovered the Chico/Paz rape thing I was like "Eugh!", but when I learned about the part after it added another layer of "do not want" to the situation. Basically, Paz be crazy, but it's a situation where everything was out of control. Trying to initiate "contact" was probably her way of trying to cope with the loss of control. For her, she was trying to help Chico deal with the trauma (in pretty much the worst way possible), but also she was trying to help herself deal with loss of her control of her own self and body. Disgusting, but if you look at is a symptom of deeply rooted control issues (hello, Cipher training) it at least makes a twisted kind of sense.

Edit 2: I'm surprised I haven't heard anyone mention the little piece of information Kaz gives Big Boss about Amanda's reaction to Chico's rash actions. It happens when you sneak around the holding cell area past the roof that sometimes has a car under it. Kaz informs Big Boss that Amanda told him to tell Big Boss she was "ready for the worst" and remarks that she sounded "a little too cheerful to me". Creepy. Was Amanda subtly giving her consent to "silence" Chico? After all, in Peace Walker she asked him to kill Chico if he sold out his comrades. More juicy potential future things to happen to Chico in TPP, if he makes it through BB's coma, Kojima truly is god.

 

[mullet2000]

Someone would have said it earlier, but the bombs are planted in the last tape. He would have noticed the "V" too.

As for Paz/Chico in the cage... I think this is definitely alluding to her not really knowing how to relate to people. She puts on an act, but her "true self" is really something very twisted (not that she is intentionally trying to be squicky). It's clear Zero shaped her in a very specific way to follow his orders, and that could have left her emotionally tone deaf or something.

One thing that's important to note is that both Paz and Chico were effectively raped. Paz was clearly the focus, but it was also a violation of Chico, he was being tortured too. That's something that it seems the IGN writer ignored.

Edit: Yeah, when I first discovered the Chico/Paz rape thing I was like "Eugh!", but when I learned about the part after it added another layer of "do not want" to the situation. Basically, Paz be crazy, but it's a situation where everything was out of control. Trying to initiate "contact" was probably her way of trying to cope with the loss of control. For her, she was trying to help Chico deal with the trauma (in pretty much the worst way possible), but also she was trying to help herself deal with loss of her control of her own self and body. Disgusting, but if you look at is a symptom of deeply rooted control issues (hello, Cipher training) it at least makes a twisted kind of sense.

Edit 2: I'm surprised I haven't heard anyone mention the little piece of information Kaz gives Big Boss about Amanda's reaction to Chico's rash actions. It happens when you sneak around the holding cell area past the roof that sometimes has a car under it. Kaz informs Big Boss that Amanda told him to tell Big Boss she was "ready for the worst" and remarks that she sounded "a little too cheerful to me". Creepy. Was Amanda subtly giving her consent to "silence" Chico? After all, in Peace Walker she asked him to kill Chico if he sold out his comrades. More juicy potential future things to happen to Chico in TPP, if he makes it through BB's coma, Kojima truly is god.

I don't think your ideas are bad here at all but I also think Kojima didn't get this stuff across very well in that tape.

In the tape it just seemed to go from "Paz is being forced to have sex with Chico (rape)" to "Oh nevermind, she LIKES it!" which is very jarring and like I said, felt tacky.

I don't think that was the intent of the scene but it came across very poorly for me.

That is an interesting point you make about Chico also being raped and that largely being ignored, though.

 

[plasmawave]

That fact that she thinks the whole revenge thing is going to take action because the death of Paz should say more than enough about the author.

 

[Alienous]

I don't think all female games journalists should feel they have license to pull up the 'rape' series of arguments. Leave it to the informed, rational thinkers, of any gender.

As it happens sexual violence is perpetrated on women by men most often, as shown in Ground Zeroes (wherein a male character is also forced to have sex despite his refusals). It's the same vein of argument that I found so frustrating regarding Tomb Raider. Yeah, you know what, her rape would probably be attempted. If it was a real life scenario, a book or a film that'd be the case. That's the reality of the situation when you ignore the false equivalence.

The "rape as reward" nonsense is more greviously abhorrent than any of the content of the game. What a foul suggestion.

Ah... I can't. It's so stupid and irrational. It could only make sense in the eyes of the agenda driven.

 

[twisteddeeds]

This might be a long shot regarding that Classified Intel Data recording.. but what if you could record it onto a physical tape and put into a MSX?

Sort of how you could copy the old commodore 64 games via a tape deck...

 

[Sami+]

I don't think all female games journalists should feel they have license to pull up the 'rape' series of arguments. Leave it to the informed, rational thinkers, of any gender.

As it happens sexual violence is perpetrated on women by men most often, as shown in Ground Zeroes (wherein a male character is also forced to have sex despite his refusals). It's the same vein of argument that I found so frustrating regarding Tomb Raider. Yeah, you know what, her rape would probably be attempted. If it was a real life scenario, a book or a film that'd be the case. That's the reality of the situation when you ignore the false equivalence.

The "rape as reward" nonsense is more greviously abhorrent than any of the content of the game. What a foul suggestion.

Ah... I can't. It's so stupid and irrational. It could only make sense in the eyes of the agenda driven.

Yeah, her argument is just... completely flawed on even the most basic level, it's silly. She's making implications about things that aren't even true. :v

As for Amanda, maybe she was happy to see him grow up, I guess? She was always really enthusiastic about being a soldier, maybe she thought he'd finally become a man or something.

 

[Rogue Agent]

If chico had sex with paz shouldn't he have... felt the bomb?

No. That was before the bombs were even planted.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I just find it amazing that Huey could be a mole and its more than likely why he was being tortured in the Phantom Pain trailer.

 

[Alienous]

I just find it amazing that Huey could be a mole and its more than likely why he was being tortured in the Phantom Pain trailer.

Nah. Unless Skull Face took him he's probably hiding in Zeke's underground bunker when shit gets explosive.

That won't stop Ocelot from going Volgin on his ass, though.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

What's the chances that Kojipro will create new levels and missions throughout the rest of the year until TPP is released?

Spoiler

None I am sure.

 

[Alienous]

What's the chances that Kojipro will create new levels and missions throughout the rest of the year until TPP is released?

Spoiler

None I am sure.

They are heads down developing TPP now, so not likely.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

Is it explained why Chico has a port in his chest?

 

[MikeBreezy92]

Nah. Unless Skull Face took him he's probably hiding in Zeke's underground bunker when shit gets explosive.

That won't stop Ocelot from going Volgin on his ass, though.

Everyone but Kaz left Motherbase. Huey was the one who insisted they get the inspection and there were hints of an inside job....

 

[Toma]

They are heads down developing TPP now, so not likely.

They should have just thrown in the mission editor for GZ as well.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Everyone but Kaz left Motherbase. Huey was the one who insisted they get the inspection and there were hints of an inside job....

Since we see them torturing him in the E3 trailer I think it's pretty clear it was Huey's doing.

Makes me think about when Kojima released the Love Deterrence music video and received backlash from the other direction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO_5R_DMCJA



Seems like people want to pigeon hole Metal Gear into being this one singular thing. I don't understand why you can't be a little goofy but still be a very mature game at its core. I've always thought the series dealt with some mature themes.

This is oddly hard to watch after what happened to her before and during Ground Zeroes...

 

[kitschbeam]

Uh.. Skullface is one sick fuck I guess. Chico tape #4 really creeps me out.

 

[Salaadin]

That IGN article is odd in some ways considering that one of the large complaints about GZ is that it's lacking a lot of the signature goofiness.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

The IGN article is just focused on Paz which is silly because its more than about her. And what development can you expect from a game's opening?

 

[Spaghetti]

i think people are letting the darker side of their imagination get the better of them/conforming to hearsay about the tape.

i always entertained the thought, given that the tape cuts out before any sex acts occur, that chico talked to stop himself from being forced to violate paz. it's obvious she's stripped naked however, and she does later offer chico sex for some reason (and again, we have no idea if this was even taken up)

i don't think the game should be chastised for its depiction of rape when it isn't seen or even heard, but merely left up to the imagination of the player.

besides, the ending of the ign article comes off as incredibly snide. not to mention it doesn't even take into account that ground zeroes is an epilogue to peace walker as much as it is a prologue to the phantom pain. that is the end of paz's story arc.

There is no interest in the broader complexities of Paz herself; she is nothing but a catalyst for the hero’s quest in Ground Zeroes’ successor.

it doesn't even seem like the writer even looked at paz's audio diaries. a majority of her character and actually the ground zeroes story as a whole is fleshed out via cassettes.

Ground Zeroes:
Guantanamo Bay should have been shut down by now??? Something about rape????

i miss the post-modern intelligence of mgs2 as much as anybody, but i absolutely refute the idea that a strong critique of america's use of black sites like guantanamo (and it is a strong critique, as real world leaks of torture methods and practice have obviously influenced the story) is somehow not a worthy topic

 

[Salaadin]

I do wonder why Paz seemed to offer sex to Chico at the end of tape 4. Felt out of place considering what just happened. Unless she was put up to it by XOF

 

[BibiMaghoo]

What's the chances that Kojipro will create new levels and missions throughout the rest of the year until TPP is released?

Spoiler

None I am sure.

I was wondering this. Poor review scores based on lack of content may well just push them to throw us a few bones. I hope that is the case. They already flip flopped on the pricing, so I hope they see sense and add to the game, even if only a mission here and there.

 

[cackhyena]

I highly doubt they'll do that, but it would be nice.