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[Magicant]

.....it was tastefully done, I was properly disgusted at Skullface after that and it gave much insight to the type of depraved motherfucker he is..everything Kojima does is for edge though that's nothing new.

The way I see it though, it's using Paz, a character (and the only female in Ground Zeroes) that we don't get to learn more about (aside from the cassette tapes and her shallow story in Peace Walker) to further develop a villain who's like a hammy Bond villain.

Do we hate Skull Face more because of it? Yes. Does that mean it's good writing? No.

 

[Griss]

I don't mind GZ going in a darker direction, but only if it actually means something or proves a point. Paz's rape just seems like Kojima Productions being edgy for the sake of being edgy.

I pretty much agree with these viewpoints:

http://www.pixelitis.net/features/kojima-take-things-far-metal-gear-solid-v-ground-zeroes

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/25/whats-wrong-with-metal-gear-solid-5-ground-zeroes-ending

Thanks for those links, I read them both.

I agree with the IGN one pretty much completely, but disagree with the majority of the pixelitis one. The rape scene and the bomb are very poor storytelling, but they're not sexist. Paz's last line, however, should have been left out. It adds nothing but a cheap shock/guessing game. It's in terrible taste. The rape scene is also in poor taste, but I understand its inclusion moreso than Paz's last line.

 

[Griss]

Thanks. I am kind of glad that is the case.

I mean, I'll listen to the tape before making a final call, but I thought it pretty fucked up that it was just assumed to be so. It could be anywhere right? But we all assume the worst possible place.

I think he stuck it in her ear man. Because reasons .

I honestly thought it was in her chest next to her heart, for thematic reasons. As she seemed to have her heart torn between her duty to Cipher and her like of Big Boss and Mother Base.

But everyone else jumped to the perverted conclusion, lol. I'll admit that it's more likely that they're right than I was, but I don't think it's 'obvious'. I haven't heard all of the tapes, though.

 

[Spaghetti]

The way I see it though, it's using Paz, a character (and the only female in Ground Zeroes) that we don't get to learn more about (aside from the cassette tapes and her shallow story in Peace Walker) to further develop a villain who's like a hammy Bond villain.

Do we hate Skull Face more because of it? Yes. Does that mean it's good writing? No.

you're talking like those are insignificant.

kojipro even went so far as to include the peace walker diary tapes along with the new material to further flesh out paz, she's got two whole sets of tapes dedicated to her and as a result possibly the character with the most actual dialogue in the game.

 

[bigboss370]

oh man, with all the juicy story packed in to this prologue alone, with the cassette tapes and whatnot, Phanton Pain is shaping up to be epic

 

[Magicant]

you're talking like those are insignificant.

kojipro even went so far as to include the peace walker diary tapes along with the new material to further flesh out paz, she's got two whole sets of tapes dedicated to her and as a result possibly the character with the most actual dialogue in the game.

When they're thrown in as a separate entity aside from the main game it sort of feels that way. Having so many of those audio logs for backstory tells me they didn't feel like incorporating that into the campaign.

 

[plasmawave]

I wonder what Paz being the only female in the game has to do with anything.
People always like to give it a sexist/misogynist spin to it I guess.

 

[SJRB]

Paz being foced into sex: "omg disgusting, tasteless, sexism huhuhu"
Chico being forced into sex: "...what? who?"

 

[Spaghetti]

When they're thrown in as a separate entity aside from the main game it sort of feels that way. Having so many of those audio logs for backstory tells me they didn't feel like incorporating that into the campaign.

mgsv marks a shift from telling the story entirely through cutscenes to giving the player the option to explore further via tapes, the bulk of the ground zeroes set up is in the tapes too for that matter.

just because they're not spoon fed to you as a cutscene doesn't mean they're insignificant at all.

 

[kubus]

People also tend to disregard that Chico was also raped and tortured, and he had even less "character development" than Paz.


Edit: beaten

 

[Griss]

When they're thrown in as a separate entity aside from the main game it sort of feels that way. Having so many of those audio logs for backstory tells me they didn't feel like incorporating that into the campaign.

If you're talking about Ground Zeroes campaign then there was an obvious decision to put 95% of the story into tapes and in-mission calls from Kaz. There are only two cutscenes, and very little of anything happens in the first.

If you're talking about Peace Walker, Paz obviously had a presence and was in no way a throw-away character. She was there, and important, from the beginning to the end.

 

[KittenMaster]

Peace Walker started the idea of making instructional codecs automatically heard as you play, and the optional, world and character building cassette tapes a separate option. This actually ended up superior in some ways to the live feed codec as it allowed characters to speak personal thoughts they would have never said to Snake's face.

Ground Zeroes is a continuation of that. It is simply a new way to convey what is normally conveyed through codec conversation, rather than something that's not intended to be important.

Paz was definitely an important character, and Ground Zeroes elevated Chico from a scrub kid into a character that could potentially define Big Boss' future.

 

[plasmawave]

I think the PW codecs had more to do with the hardware's limitation and UMD storage size.

 

[dc89]

I'm probably reading into stuff way too much but that's what these games do to you but I noticed this before when I watched the GDC trailer and then the E3 trailer.

In the GDC trailer the lyrics to the song go something like "won't be cast as demons"
In the E3 trailer we hear Snake say "Kaz.... I'm already a demon."

Now I know it almost makes no sense because the GDC trailer pre-dated the E3 one, but imagine if that was just a little pointer to some of the wild theories people have discussed about clones and not really playing as Snake etc.

Damn it, I love everything about these games, a little too much at times.

 

[Tribes of Trusty]

I thought about something : what if in TPP killing enemy soldiers won't be penalized anymore ?
Normally TPP will be about BB and Kaz's revenge, and BB turning into some kind of demon/ogre - respected bust mostly feared amongst soldiers. It wouldn't be that out of place.

Also, there must be a reason BB loses his arm, gameplay-wise. Maybe it'll change how CQC works or provides a handy bag of spilling trope about how BB has to relearn his moves/how to aim with a prothetic arm.

Or maybe not at all.

 

[bishopcruz]

Have to ask, but why is the assumption that the second bomb was in either her lady bag or her ass?

I mean, I've seen it, and she doesn't say, for whatever reason. I'm just wondering if this is something that is described in the tapes (I don't have them all yet) or is the mass imagination of the internet gone wild.

I honestly thought it was in her chest next to her heart, for thematic reasons. As she seemed to have her heart torn between her duty to Cipher and her like of Big Boss and Mother Base.

But everyone else jumped to the perverted conclusion, lol. I'll admit that it's more likely that they're right than I was, but I don't think it's 'obvious'. I haven't heard all of the tapes, though.

It wasn't jumping to a perverted conclusion. It's par the Kojima course. Damn near every Metal Gear Solid game has had rape at the very least implied. Meryl in MGS1, Eva in MGS3, Paz in MGSW, and IIRC at least a couple of the beauties in MGS4. Some are more obvious than others, but it's ALWAYS been there. This was probably the most direct depiction of it but that's what it is.

And the last tape pretty much seals where the bomb was. Paz was already stitched back up when the bomb was placed, that limits it to exactly TWO locations.

The stuff is horrific no doubt. But the interesting thing, is that unlike every other instance in a Metal Gear, it's not a throwaway line. Skullface doesn't to what he does because he enjoys it, or at least that's not how it seems to me, he does what he does to fuck with the heads of everyone. He systematically breaks both Chico AND Paz. He gets exactly what he wants from each of them, and does horrible stuff to succeed.

If you haven't heard tape 7, listen to it. It is goddamned heart-breaking.

Paz being foced into sex: "omg disgusting, tasteless, sexism huhuhu"
Chico being forced into sex: "...what? who?"

Kinda this, Paz was at least a spy. Chico was a 13 year old boy in over his head. He was just as brutally tortured (save the bombs) was forced to have sex with the woman he had a crush on in horrific circumstances, had bolts driven through his tendons, and lord knows what else. No one cares about Chico though.

What happened to both of them made me ill. Which I'm sure is what Kojima was going for.

 

[Itchy//Tasty]

Just heard tape 7. Darkest shit I've ever heard in a game, ever. Can't believe anyone is disputing where the second bomb is, after that. Overall the tapes were almost too on the nose, but yeah, horrors of war and all that. Shame we have to wait a goddamn year+ to take down Skullface, but I guess it pales in comparison to BB's 9 year coma.

 

[The Silver]

I'm really really interested in seeing grown up Chico, this guy is going to be fucked up in Phantom Pain. We're gonna have a revenge trio of Miller, Chico, and Big Boss.

 

[NinjaMouse]

I'm really really interested in seeing grown up Chico, this guy is going to be fucked up in Phantom Pain. We're gonna have a revenge trio of Miller, Chico, and Big Boss.

It may have been said before, but I highly suspect that Chico will end up being Psycho Mantis. I don't know the lore nearly as well as others in this thread do, but it seems to point in that direction for me. There's something "special" about the kid and he's got bolts through his feet, keeping him from walking. Mantis is pretty twisted, and floats around and such in MGS. I dunno, that's just where I see that bit going, at least.

 

[thesolidshark]

I don't mind GZ going in a darker direction, but only if it actually means something or proves a point. Paz's rape just seems like Kojima Productions being edgy for the sake of being edgy.

I pretty much agree with these viewpoints:

http://www.pixelitis.net/features/kojima-take-things-far-metal-gear-solid-v-ground-zeroes

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/25/whats-wrong-with-metal-gear-solid-5-ground-zeroes-ending

Like a few people have said in Lucy's article's comments and here, unfortuantely I have to wonder if the fact that Paz was the only woman in the game's narrative was why the ending can be something of a touchy argument, considering what happened to her. Had it been Chico surgically implanted with bombs, who knows how much attention the ending would've gotten. I also wonder how much sexual torture Paz would've endured if Chico didn't try to resuce her on his own. A lot of the point of assaulting her like that was aimed at getting information, Paz for Cipher ino and Chico for Big Boss info.

It is sort of funny to realize she was the only woman in GZ after the fact, but that doesn't compare at all to what she was for the story - the spy between two or three different organizations that everyone sought after after her plan to nuke the U.S. east coast with Zeke failed. That plus her loyalties on any side still being in question (up until the end though) mourning her after that wouldn't be so easy for me. And just because she wasn't as fleshed out in GZ doesn't mean she wasn't a fleshed out character in-general. PW gave her a lot more exposition than I expected.

It was a good thing for Kojima to add Paz's audio logs to give her a good frame of reference, even for PW players, but I wonder if more was needed from PW to show she wasn't such a throwaway character for the series at all. I don't blame anyone who wanted more out of her or the game in-general (everyone did) though.

It may have been said before, but I highly suspect that Chico will end up being Psycho Mantis. I don't know the lore nearly as well as others in this thread do, but it seems to point in that direction for me. There's something "special" about the kid and he's got bolts through his feet, keeping him from walking. Mantis is pretty twisted, and floats around and such in MGS. I dunno, that's just where I see that bit going, at least.

The age difference might be a problem as Mantis looks to be Chico's age or younger in TPP, and Chico would be 19 or 20 in TPP, if he survived the crash.

 

[The Silver]

It may have been said before, but I highly suspect that Chico will end up being Psycho Mantis. I don't know the lore nearly as well as others in this thread do, but it seems to point in that direction for me. There's something "special" about the kid and he's got bolts through his feet, keeping him from walking. Mantis is pretty twisted, and floats around and such in MGS. I dunno, that's just where I see that bit going, at least.

Psycho Mantis would have to have completely lied about his backstory(and changed his accent) for him to be Chico.

Also Psycho Mantis looked to still be a kid in PP, Chico would be an adult.

I really don't see how you're connecting the two.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Paz being foced into sex: "omg disgusting, tasteless, sexism huhuhu"
Chico being forced into sex: "...what? who?"

It just reminds me of that South Park episode. Underage boy has sex with his teacher...

The only people that can say Paz was underdeveloped are people that never played PW. GZ is a short game and it assumes you know who everyone is, it's not going to retell the entire back-stories of Kaz, Big Boss, Chico, and Paz for you. I really hope Chico survived in the end so we can see how this entire ordeal effects him.

 

[ButchCat]

Did anyone else notice the mechanical "zoom in" sound when you peek over a corner?

What's up with that?

I don't know about the sound but the feature helps mark a nearby enemy's position that otherwise might give your position to the enemy had you used the binoculars (which brings you out of cover).

 

[NinjaMouse]

The age difference might be a problem as Mantis looks to be Chico's age or younger in TPP, and Chico would be 19 or 20 in TPP, if he survived the crash.

I dunno, like I said, it's just a theory of mine...I don't know the specific dates and stuff. As with anything, though. For all we know, he could have presented himself to BB in the hospital as a kid because that's how BB would know him. Maybe he maintains a childlike mind after 9 years of whatever he's been through. Maybe he's dead and it's a completely different person, I don't know.

At this point, we know next to nothing about TPP...and it's all open for speculation. The end result probably won't be close to anything as interesting as what people here are theorizing, in all fairness.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Is there any explanation as to why Paz starts coming on to Chico in their cage after "that incident?" I can explain away all the other awful stuff in this game as plain old hackery, but this just boggles my mind.

 

[Pitch Black Flint]

Did anyone else notice the mechanical "zoom in" sound when you peek over a corner?

What's up with that?

Yeah, didn't Kojima also say that the onscreen damage indicator was purposely made to resemble film burn instead of blood? Yeah...what is up with that?

 

[TheLight]

Is there any explanation as to why Paz starts coming on to Chico in their cage after "that incident?" I can explain away all the other awful stuff in this game as plain old hackery, but this just boggles my mind.

Some twisted stockholm? I dunno I wouldn't look at anything Paz or Chico related too much. By the end of it they were beyond broken.

 

[sega4ever]

I'm really really interested in seeing grown up Chico, this guy is going to be fucked up in Phantom Pain. We're gonna have a revenge trio of Miller, Chico, and Big Boss.

he turns into the machine gun kid

 

[The Silver]

he turns into the machine gun kid

He's obviously Dirty Duck

 

[Erigu]

The only people that can say Paz was underdeveloped are people that never played PW.

I played the game. She's barely in it, and most of it turns out to be false anyway. All you know about the real Paz comes from those hidden tapes you get at the end of the game, and even then, most of her actual background (her relation with Ciper, for example) is a mystery. The fact I find the twist reveal regarding her true nature a bit hard to reconcile with the rest of the game (was she actually captured? why was the KGB guy still helping her in the end? etc) doesn't exactly help matters.
And then she gets raped and dies from a vagina bomb.

 

[plasmawave]

Yeah, didn't Kojima also say that the onscreen damage indicator was purposely made to resemble film burn instead of blood? Yeah...what is up with that?

It's exactly what it is.
It's a camera filming all the events.

 

[Whompa]

Sucks to see her go in such a horrific way...

 

[cloudzack117]

while i dont condone the actions of implanting vaginas with bombs, im kind of glad paz finally got some retribution for stealing

Spoiler

the metal gear that took me forever to build lol.

 

[Timeaisis]

It's exactly what it is.
It's a camera filming all the events.

Solid watching an old film of BB doing what he does best.

I remember when MGS3 came out there were there were theories that you actually played as Solid in a simulation of the famous Snake Eater mission and that's why your see "time paradox" when you died. Maybe some crazy shit like that is going on.

Spoiler

Probably not.

 

[Tribes of Trusty]

Solid watching an old film of BB doing what he does best.

I remember when MGS3 came out there were there were theories that you actually played as Solid in a simulation of the famous Snake Eater mission and that's why your see "time paradox" when you died. Maybe some crazy shit like that is going on.

Spoiler

Probably not.

Didn't Kojima thought of some Animus (AssCreed) like device in the VR training program but ultimately didn't go with it ?

 

[Angelcurio]

Really enjoyed Ground Zeroes even though it was really short. The Deja Vu mission is really well done and just made me wish for Kojima to eventually release a remake of the original MGS. I hope that by E3 we get a final release date for the Phantom Pain.

 

[Gui_PT]

I don't know about the sound but the feature helps mark a nearby enemy's position that otherwise might give your position to the enemy had you used the binoculars (which brings you out of cover).

Yeah it's really helpful

Yeah, didn't Kojima also say that the onscreen damage indicator was purposely made to resemble film burn instead of blood? Yeah...what is up with that?

Maybe none of this is actually happening and it's just Big Boss secured on a dark room by Zero and forced to watch movies of himself.

 

[immortal-joe]

Yeah, didn't Kojima also say that the onscreen damage indicator was purposely made to resemble film burn instead of blood? Yeah...what is up with that?

All signs point to it being a stylistic choice. This relates to the nature of the camera and how it seamlessly transitions from gameplay to cutscenes, giving the effect of one continuous shot. So the camera "zoom noise" and the "burning film" effect are meant to complement that effect.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

I think the PW codecs had more to do with the hardware's limitation and UMD storage size.

Don't see how that could be the case- there is a TON of dialogue in the cassettes and they can be accessed in mission with the walkman. It just seems a concious choice on Kojima's part to make them an ancillary way to deliver backstory.

He's been on the path since MGS3. With both MGS1 and 2 a lot of story-critical scenes happen inside the codec (hell in MGS2 they even come up with reasons to switch over to codec conversation even when the characters are face to face). In MGS3 the codec was largely relegated to background details and MGS4 excised a lot of codec material altogether.

The cassette tapes seem like a way for Kojima to bring back the background/lore stuff without making it intrusive to the narrative. It also lets you have access to everything whenever you want it instead of the situational prompts of early MGS games that made it possible to miss out on somewhat important story details if you didn't hit the codec during a narrow window in the game.

 

[Rogue Agent]

I played the game. She's barely in it, and most of it turns out to be false anyway. All you know about the real Paz comes from those hidden tapes you get at the end of the game, and even then, most of her actual background (her relation with Ciper, for example) is a mystery. The fact I find the twist reveal regarding her true nature a bit hard to reconcile with the rest of the game (was she actually captured? why was the KGB guy still helping her in the end? etc) doesn't exactly help matters.
And then she gets raped and dies from a vagina bomb.

She was also undercover with the KGB, that's why Zadornov was helping her. Zadornov was maintaining Paz's cover as a KGB agent. But even Zadornov didn't know that she was ultimately working for Cipher.

 

[Erigu]

She was also undercover with the KGB, that's why Zadornov was helping her. Zadornov was maintaining Paz's cover as a KGB agent.

And they were both acting even as he was telling her to shoot Coldman? Why would the guy still pretend, at that point? And why would he even have her shoot Coldman in the first place? Was he pretending to be sadistic? Why?
(Then he dies making some "peace" joke and I guess I'm not even supposed to wonder what's going on anymore.)
It really feels like a twist that's been added fairly late in development and "fuck revising what came before that".

 

[CrichtonKicks]

There was always something obviously up with Paz. Once you rescue Cecile and learn that she doesn't know Paz and that Paz wasn't present for the recording of the tape then it's clear that she must have some other motive. It bothered me that Snake and Kaz wave that off so easily- "oh, it must be another bird watcher friend of Paz who's still out there and recorded the exact same tape. Makes sense..."

 

[OnionPowder]

Do we know if Hayter has even a cameo in GZ? I have a bet going with a friend that he won't show up credited for any voice acting roles in GZ.

 

[jett]

Did anyone else notice the mechanical "zoom in" sound when you peek over a corner?

What's up with that?

The sound of a camera. It's silly.

 

[kmax]

Do we know if Hayter has even a cameo in GZ? I have a bet going with a friend that he won't show up credited for any voice acting roles in GZ.

I think you won.

 

[Erigu]

There was always something obviously up with Paz. Once you rescue Cecile and learn that she doesn't know Paz and that Paz wasn't present for the recording of the tape then it's clear that she must have some other motive.

Yes, there was that (although I imagine that could have been a late change as well... it's not like Cécile is exactly vital to the plot, far from it).

It bothered me that Snake and Kaz wave that off so easily- "oh, it must be another bird watcher friend of Paz who's still out there and recorded the exact same tape. Makes sense..."

"Her fake professor is gone, so I guess we should give this SCHOOL GIRL a room on our OFFSHORE MILITARY BASE."
Sure.

Meanwhile...
Paz: Just as planned...
Why, yes, obviously.

 

[Rogue Agent]

And they were both acting even as he was telling her to shoot Coldman? Why would the guy still pretend, at that point? And why would he even have her shoot Coldman in the first place? Was he pretending to be sadistic? Why?
(Then he dies making some "peace" joke and I guess I'm not even supposed to wonder what's going on anymore.)
It really feels like a twist that's been added fairly late in development and "fuck revising what came before that".

To maintain her cover. They're just spy games, that's all.

There was always something obviously up with Paz. Once you rescue Cecile and learn that she doesn't know Paz and that Paz wasn't present for the recording of the tape then it's clear that she must have some other motive. It bothered me that Snake and Kaz wave that off so easily- "oh, it must be another bird watcher friend of Paz who's still out there and recorded the exact same tape. Makes sense..."

Kaz knew who they were. Did you notice how quickly he waved it off? He just changed the subject quick.

 

[Gui_PT]

The sound of a camera. It's silly.

So Ground Zeroes is like Super Marie 64 where the camera is a controllable character?

 

[Erigu]

To maintain her cover.

C'mon, even if he wanted to keep her cover intact at that point (despite that confrontation with Coldman being the end game, as far as a KGB agent would be concerned... but let's keep acting in front of those people we're planning to kill in the next few minutes anyway?), he really didn't need to go "shoot hiiim! remember what he did to youuu!", and she really didn't need to go "nooo, I caaaan't!"

Kaz knew who they were. Did you notice how quickly he waved it off? He just changed the subject quick.

If he knew Paz was an agent as well, it was pretty dumb of him to 1) keep her on the base and 2) not keep her under surveillance. He really doesn't get to then go "whaaargl you spying bitch". Hey, it's all on you, moron.

 

[Rogue Agent]

C'mon, even if he wanted to keep her cover intact at that point (despite that confrontation with Coldman being the end game, as far as a KGB agent would be concerned... but let's keep acting in front of those people we're planning to kill in the next few minutes anyway?), he really didn't need to go "shoot hiiim! remember what he did to youuu!", and she really didn't need to go "nooo, I caaaan't!"

I think you're over-thinking this way too much. They're just acting. It's what spies do. It's like a play.

If he knew Paz was an agent as well, it was pretty dumb of him to 1) keep her on the base and 2) not keep her under surveillance. He really doesn't get to then go "whaaargl you spying bitch". Hey, it's all on you, moron.

Well, he should have, yes. But everyone has their flaws, I guess. He had no idea that ZEKE was going to be sabotaged so yeah, he should've kept an eye on her.