Introduction to MOBAs

Yeah i don't think Sven would do too well. He would get crushed in lane, as until level 6 he'd pretty much be a squishier Sion due to not having Sion's shield. 60% cleave isn't that much, Ravenous Hydra is an item that gives that to any melee champion. 200% damage is good, but it would have the same issue as Sion's ultimate. Sion can become a invincible hyper carry if he can get farmed and onto someone with his ultimate... but there's no way he will survive the laning phase and not get kited to hell. Sven could put out damage, but he would either have to catch everyone in his stun, or he would get wrecked in a team fight. Sion is a really good parallel to why Sven would have issues.
 
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Imperfected said:
I think we can all agree that Smite characters would wreck LoL and DotA heroes because they can move in three dimensions. Like what the actual fuck, hax.
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TharpDaddy said:
Yeah i don't think Sven would do too well. He would get crushed in lane, as until level 6 he'd pretty much be a squishier Sion due to not having Sion's shield. 60% cleave isn't that much, Ravenous Hydra is an item that gives that to any melee champion. 200% damage is good, but it would have the same issue as Sion's ultimate. Sion can become a invincible hyper carry if he can get farmed and onto someone with his ultimate... but there's no way he will survive the laning phase and not get kited to hell. Sven could put out damage, but he would either have to catch everyone in his stun, or he would get wrecked in a team fight. Sion is a really good parallel to why Sven would have issues.
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He'd be a jungler only, like a sion that could actually jungle. His ganks would be impressive.
 
Ferrio said:
He'd be too squishy, he'd just get blown up if that's all he had.
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Not with his natural hp growth and armor from war cry(I'm assuming the specific values would be adjusted to their league equivalents given the 18 vs 25 levels). Put an Atma's on him and start wrecking fools right away.
 
iamblades said:
Not with his natural hp growth and armor from war cry(I'm assuming the specific values would be adjusted to their league equivalents given the 18 vs 25 levels). Put an Atma's on him and start wrecking fools right away.
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Armor penetration exists in LoL. Not to mention that wouldnt' protect him against all the magic damage in the game.
 
iamblades said:
Not with his natural hp growth and armor from war cry(I'm assuming the specific values would be adjusted to their league equivalents given the 18 vs 25 levels). Put an Atma's on him and start wrecking fools right away.
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Sion gains permanent maximum health for every last hit he gets, has a ranged stun, can gain a lot of attack speed and life steal with his ult (the life steal heals him AND everyone near him) and can shield himself for a pretty large amount. Despite this, he is almost 100% unviable as an ADC. Sven is pretty close to him in kit, and would have the same issue.
 
Pureauthor said:
We need more Captain's Draft tourneys. I attribute 80% of the rise of Dazzle in the pro scene to that tournament.
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It was a great competition, I really need to get back to watching all the VODs from it.

Seeing a first ban Warlock to deny him from Alliance was top shelf lulzy Dota.

zkylon said:
hmm that's actually a cool mechanic

for like setting the pace of teh game and stuff
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I never thought I'd be afraid of the dark as an adult, but then I started playing Dota 2.

And in my potato MMR people rarely use smoke, let alone to gank with it.
 
yarden24 said:
What about if you would put bristleback as is into lol?
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He could probably function fine as a top laner or a jungler. Not having slow turn speed would give quite some skillful plays with his Bristleback skill. His reduced damage from sides/behind spell is still called that, right?
 
yarden24 said:
What about if you would put bristleback as is into lol?
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Bristle would be a good jungler, could probably hang in top too.

Some heroes form Dota that I think would be OP in Lol:

Nature's Prophet: Teleports everywhere, he'd push lanes better than anyone in game
Clockwerk: A global aoe spell that's not an ultimate, ya... we'd be fucked just from one skill.
PA: Her blur passive would be a bit too much for LoL I think (Riot deemed the dodge stat unfun and removed it). She'd be susceptible to CC, but she could build some MR and HP and still wreck face.
 
Leezard said:
He could probably function fine as a top laner or a jungler. Not having slow turn speed would give quite some skillful plays with his Bristleback skill. His reduced damage from sides/behind spell is still called that, right?
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Yup and it's a passive ability, not a spell.

/pedant
 
TharpDaddy said:
Sion gains permanent maximum health for every last hit he gets, has a ranged stun, can gain a lot of attack speed and life steal with his ult (the life steal heals him AND everyone near him) and can shield himself for a pretty large amount. Despite this, he is almost 100% unviable as an ADC. Sven is pretty close to him in kit, and would have the same issue.
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Attack speed isn't close to the same thing as 200% more damage, even if they increase the DPS by the same percentage. Especially when you stack that +200% with a +180% from crit..

You probably could kite him around most of the time fairly well just like with sion, but he lands his stun on a couple people, he is going to get at least a couple attacks in, and people are going to die. With sion if he gets a couple hits in, after the stun ends you are still alive and able to resume kiting him.
 
Ferrio said:
Bristle would be a good jungler, could probably hang in top too.

Some heroes form Dota that I think would be OP in Lol:

Nature's Prophet: Teleports everywhere, he'd push lanes better than anyone in game
Clockwerk: A global aoe spell that's not an ultimate, ya... we'd be fucked just from one skill.
PA: Her blur passive would be a bit too much for LoL I think (Riot deemed the dodge stat unfun and removed it). She'd be susceptible to CC, but she could build some MR and HP and still wreck face.
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With stuns lasting for a shorter time, wouldn't blink heros like antimage be pretty unkillable? Lycian as well (his overpowered in dota now as we'll though)
 
Ferrio said:
Mobility creep is definitely a thing in LoL. More and more champs have abilities that give them dashes, teleport, gapclosers or whatever. Lot of the old champions have a hard time keeping up with it.
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It seems to be similar with Smite, which follows the LoL model of MOBA heavily and which I actually play in addition to dota.

Strangely dota doesnt seem to have that problem, likely because of its item model.
 
yarden24 said:
With stuns lasting for a shorter time, wouldn't blink heros like antimage be pretty unkillable? Lycian as well (his overpowered in dota now as we'll though)
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Yeah, most likely. We have Kassadin who is similar but more of a mage than an auto hitter. Him being an auto hitter might make him slightly worse though, as he would still need to place himself in harm's way.
 
yarden24 said:
With stuns lasting for a shorter time, wouldn't blink heros like antimage be pretty unkillable? Lycian as well (his overpowered in dota now as we'll though)
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Antimage would do well, but I don't think because of his blink. LoL is not stranger to champions with tons of movement options. On the other hand his manaburn, passive magic damage reduction and ultimate would dominate.
 
Ferrio said:
Bristle would be a good jungler, could probably hang in top too.

Some heroes form Dota that I think would be OP in Lol:

Nature's Prophet: Teleports everywhere, he'd push lanes better than anyone in game
Clockwerk: A global aoe spell that's not an ultimate, ya... we'd be fucked just from one skill.
PA: Her blur passive would be a bit too much for LoL I think (Riot deemed the dodge stat unfun and removed it). She'd be susceptible to CC, but she could build some MR and HP and still wreck face.
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You are missing the big thing: 5 sec CD blink.

Also why AM, Riki(plus permanent invisibilty woohoo), and Queen of Pain would be super OP in LoL.

QoP actually reminds me a lot of a LoL hero design wise, just much much stronger.
 
yarden24 said:
With stuns lasting for a shorter time, wouldn't blink heros like antimage be pretty unkillable? Lycian as well (his overpowered in dota now as we'll though)
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I would think a 5 sec cd Flash is any LoL player's wet dream.

€: Oh, forgot about Kassadin. Isn't he like extremely dominant right now?
 
Granadier said:
Can we just agree that heroes > champions?

Everyone looks up to heroes.
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Yeah but the appellation "hero" is grossly misused (at least in the U.S.).

Also "We Are the Champions" >>>>>>> Bowie's "Heroes".

I call everything a hero. Sry Dawngate.

Ferrio said:
PA: Her blur passive would be a bit too much for LoL I think (Riot deemed the dodge stat unfun and removed it).
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can someone edit that robot hammering a sign saying NO FUN ALLOWED into the ground pic to say NO UNFUN ALLOWED and put a riot games logo on the robot

it will get a lot of mileage in these threads
 
iamblades said:
Attack speed isn't close to the same thing as 200% more damage, even if they increase the DPS by the same percentage. Especially when you stack that +200% with a +180% from crit..

You probably could kite him around most of the time fairly well just like with sion, but he lands his stun on a couple people, he is going to get at least a couple attacks in, and people are going to die. With sion if he gets a couple hits in, after the stun ends you are still alive and able to resume kiting him.
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Where would get the money for crit stats? How would get close to anyone to even use his stun? He runs at someone and an Ahri charms him, or a Lulu polymorphs him, or a Elise cocoons him, etc. In an ideal situation if he could get farmed up, get crit, and get to people then yeah he could do damage -- but so could any other hyper carry. I don't see him being anything but a weaker hyper carry. An underfarmed Sven would get absolutely crushed before he could do anything, even with 200% damage people could grab a frozen heart or randuin's to make his attacks so slow that he'd be all but useless. I think CC would just be too much for him to make much of an impact, unless he's just stomping low ranked.
 
ViviOggi said:
I would think a 5 sec cd Flash is any LoL player's wet dream.

€: Oh, forgot about Kassadin. Isn't he like extremely dominant right now?
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Actually no, he just got a rework and he is nowhere near as dominant as before. He has won the single pro game he has appeared in, but he's not the problem he was before.
 
Karakand said:
can someone edit that robot hammering a sign saying NO FUN ALLOWED into the ground pic to say NO UNFUN ALLOWED and put a riot games logo on the robot

it will get a lot of mileage in these threads
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pls, it's anti-fun

Pretty good idea though, I like it

Leezard said:
Actually no, he just got a rework and he is nowhere near as dominant as before. He has won the single pro game he has appeared in, but he's not the problem he was before.
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I see, that's the probably the context in which I've heard about him being super strong recently.
 
I'm waiting for a LoL champ that can control neutrals and use them to push like Chen.

:3

But really, there are very few heroes/champs that could make the jump from one game to the other without tweaking or they're be OP. Manaless League champions would be OP in Dota2. Same as the super-spammy ones like Vayne. Dota 2 heroes that have multiple forms of CC, illusion heroes, perpetually invisible heroes like Riki, and heroes that have things they can micro (like Chen, Enchantress, and Visage) would all break League.

And on the flip side, Dota2's melee carries generally could not work in League. The carry position in LoL's current iteration absolutely *requires* a ranged carry. There are no exceptions. League's design is just funny like that, and I think the game would be much better if they could figure out how to make melee carries, and make them viable on the ADC position. The only melee carries that could jump to LoL without tweaks are the ones that can become tanky enough to function as top lane carries like Doom, Dragon Knight and similar. Maybe Axe.

That said, I'd like to see the League team figure out how to make melee carries and make them viable from the ADC position. It would mix things up a lot. Right now, if you're playing any of the usual crop of ADC champs, you're going to be limited to getting a combination of the following in a timely fashion:

BoTRK
Bloodthirster
Last Whisper
Phantom Dancer/Shiv
Infinity Edge
Trinity Force
Berzerker's boots
GA/Veil as your last and only defensive item.

...and that's really it. How dry and uninspired. Get something else and people are going to think you're trolling. Where in Dota2, carries can and will build differently for damn near every game and have to choose between approximately 20 possible items depending on the game and the carry hero the selected (assuming a STR or Agi carry). League could use some diversity in viable ADCarry items and more than just range. It would make the role in general more interesting.
 
TharpDaddy said:
Where would get the money for crit stats? How would get close to anyone to even use his stun? He runs at someone and an Ahri charms him, or a Lulu polymorphs him, or a Elise cocoons him, etc. In an ideal situation if he could get farmed up, get crit, and get to people then yeah he could do damage -- but so could any other hyper carry. I don't see him being anything but a weaker hyper carry. An underfarmed Sven would get absolutely crushed before he could do anything, even with 200% damage people could grab a frozen heart or randuin's to make his attacks so slow that he'd be all but useless. I think CC would just be too much for him to make much of an impact, unless he's just stomping low ranked.
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Sven's stun is 600 range, he would be able to throw it well before being CC'd in the vast majority of cases.

Attack speed slows aren't really all that much use when he only has to hit you once.
 
This will all be settled when dota adds custom games and the first thing someone will do is remake lol in it with all the same move/turn speed stuff attuned and all the champs free.

And within a week of that we'll have the lol x dota all stars custom game floating around.
 
I guess it depends on the manaless champions, but being unable to partake is the joys of many of dota's fine active items would probably be a big deal.
 
iamblades said:
Sven's stun is 600 range, he would be able to throw it well before being CC'd in the vast majority of cases.
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Not in League he couldn't. Most of League's skillshot roots are much longer than 600 range. That said, Sven + Amumu would be a problem. But again, League has no room for melee carries at the moment. Sven can't spam his skills enough early game without tweaks to make him a viable solo top lane brusier. His mana costs would have to be tweaked to "League mana" levels. That is, being able to Q at least 5 times before needed to pop a mana potion. In dota, he can Q once and he's in need of mana.
 
HK-47 said:
It seems to be similar with Smite, which follows the LoL model of MOBA heavily and which I actually play in addition to dota.

Strangely dota doesnt seem to have that problem, likely because of its item model.
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It's mostly because of different theories of game design, honestly.

The design of LoL/Smite is mostly inward-facing. "This is the state of the game," the designs say, "I think a new hero needs these specific things to be good in the current state of the game, so that is what I'm going to give them." That will tend to lead to mobility creep very easily.

The design of DotA heroes originally was more MvC2-style, very much a, "How can I make this ridiculous idea actually work in the context of a game where it probably shouldn't?" approach. As a result their abilities are generally more based on what the designers thought would be fun and thematic for them, rather than what they "need" to be "viable" in the game as it stood at the time.

Neither design philosophy is really right or wrong. You can end up with a highly competitive game using the DotA/MvC2 method, and you can end up with a diverse cast of interesting characters using the LoL/3rd Strike method. They both leave their stamp on the game in question, though; the former method tends to lead to a lot of characters of dubious merit that have to be re-balanced after the fact to merit inclusion, and the latter method tends to lead to a degree of homogenization in designs.

You can work out those wrinkles given time in games that patch live like LoL and DotA, though, so they don't end up as permanent/baked-in problems like with fighting games.
 
SteveWinwood said:
This will all be settled when dota adds custom games and the first thing someone will do is remake lol in it with all the same move/turn speed stuff attuned and all the champs free.

And within a week of that we'll have the lol x dota all stars custom game floating around.
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And then a new genre will be born in that furnace and become the next DotA/CS/Fall From Heaven.
 
iamblades said:
Sven's stun is 600 range, he would be able to throw it well before being CC'd in the vast majority of cases.

Attack speed slows aren't really all that much use when he only has to hit you once.
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Assuming he has 100 damage (normal for a champ at level 6) and turns on his ult, that only makes his auto attacks do 200 damage a piece. That's not far off from some other champions on auto attack damage, and he wouldn't be doing much ability damage. Even if he got a crit, that's 400 damage. He'd hit pretty hard, but he'd not be one shotting people.
 
Ferrio said:
Not even close, that's more like a very shitty version of Tiny's throw.

Man I wish syndra could pick up teammates...
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That would be hilarious. In all 4 one mode you could get launched from other Zigg's satchel charges. It became a battle of trying to get your teammates killed, rather than trying to win.
 
SteveWinwood said:
That post is just so ridiculous on a lot of levels.

Measure your anti fun and add it to your fun if > 0...

Not everything is a science, especially not game design. It's much more an art. You're over thinking and over analyzing EVERYTHING.
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This line of discussion is a poison pit leading to nowhere. It's also been done of death. I really hope we never have a serious discussion of Zileas's ideas on game design.
 
Tinker might exist as a similar base hero, but BoT-Blink-Dagon-Ethblade-Sheep-Shiva Tinker wouldn't ever exist in leeg.

Furion and Io also wouldn't exist, because leeg doesn't have TP or Fortify.

EDIT: Well, I forgot about Twisted Fate.
 
TharpDaddy said:
Assuming he has 100 damage (normal for a champ at level 6) and turns on his ult, that only makes his auto attacks do 200 damage a piece. That's not far off from some other champions on auto attack damage, and he wouldn't be doing much ability damage. Even if he got a crit, that's 400 damage. He'd hit pretty hard, but he'd not be one shotting people.
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400 Damage at level 6, plus the ~300 damage from the stun remember, is basically a one shot of the majority of league heroes, and level 6 is before he has even really started to scale. Once he stacks some damage items and an infinity edge to boost his crit damage.. it'll get gross.

Also you guys are discussing this like he is 1v5ing a whole enemy team. WIth proper help setting kills up for him it becomes way easier. I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to gank a lane and get a kill every single time his ult is up.
 
I think it's interesting that all these heroes that would have a shit time in the jungle in dota are being said to be good lol jungles.

I guess the jungle plays different roles. Where in dota you put people there because you want them to get a quick item (a blink on enigma, vlads on lycan for example), because they use the creeps (doom, enchant, chen), or because you're just greedy and can get away with giving your lanes more.

Where in lol it just seems like someone who can survive a few levels just to get some ganking skills up.
 
iamblades said:
400 Damage at level 6, plus the ~300 damage from the stun remember, is basically a one shot of the majority of league heroes, and level 6 is before he has even really started to scale. Once he stacks some damage items and an infinity edge to boost his crit damage.. it'll get gross.

Also you guys are discussing this like he is 1v5ing a whole enemy team. WIth proper help setting kills up for him it becomes way easier.
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That's if you get a guaranteed crit. Even with full crit runes (which would cripple you in other ways) there's a very low chance for crits. Unless he got lucky at 6, chances are he's not killing anyone. I'm still of the belief he'd get crushed in lane and end up so behind that even if he got infinity edge he would be too squishy to survive the damage the enemies could do the him. It would end up with him being a one trick pony in that he would have to flash into the enemy team and get a 5 man stun and wreck face within 2 seconds, or get blown up. After that fight he'd have no flash, and the enemy team would see the damage he does and would target him like they would a Trynd or Fiora that attempted to dive into your team.
 
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