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[Toxi]

What's gravity?

There are worse concerns with Zero Suit, like how her spine seems to be made of pipe cleaners.

 

[Beelzebufo]

I was doing it based on character or else we would start including Ganondorf in the NES era since his character is from a series that originated in the NES era.

Okay, that makes sense. I'd still move Wario though.

Hey, that's why I proposed this alternative.

He already covered that.

 

[Frodo]

I can't believe you guys are this far on the 7th Smash thread.

Summer can't come soon enough, right?

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

Okay, that makes sense. I'd still move Wario though.

He debuted on the Game Boy in 1992. He's in the right spot.

 

[Beelzebufo]

He debuted on the Game Boy in 1992. He's in the right spot.

But he's a completely different form of the character. It's similar to the Ganondorf situation.

 

[SuperSah]

I can't believe you guys are this far on the 7th Smash thread.

Summer can't come soon enough, right?

Right!

How are we almost halfway through OT7? It's only been over a week since it was made, right? lol

 

[georly]

So here are the problems with Ganondorf:

- Ganondorf started out as a clone because Melee had a very tight development window and Sakurai thought it would be better to include clones of fan favorites than not have the characters at all. This is basically the genesis from which all other Ganondorf decisions have been birthed.

- Ganondorf was sort of changed in Brawl, but Sakurai has (as far as we can tell, fairly openly) worried that changing him too much would alienate the people that do like his playstyle and got used to him in Melee.

- Changing Ganondorf fundamentally now requires quite a few "Fuck this" options. He could saw screw it to the people that like his old style and make it more accurate to how he is in the Zelda games, essentially doing the work you'd do for a new character but giving it to an old character slot. He could make a new character, give him Ganondorf's moveset, and give Ganon a new moveset, alienating no one but even more work than the first option while doing something he said he doesn't like doing (creating characters first and worrying about movesets and styles after). The third option is to just tweak Ganondorf a little bit again but not change him fundamentally, which is where I think they're going to end up going. Won't alienate fans, people who have been complaining since Melee probably didn't expect differently, and it doesn't require a ton of extra work.

Oh I'm fully aware of the ganonforf situation, and it's tricky for sakurai for sure, but definitely not as tricky as, say, Falco, where people would legitimately be upset if they completely redid him. I think ganondorf's current moveset is almost universally regarded as the most off-putting and needing of a change, and has very few people who 'main' him or would be totally upset with him changing. I'm sure they exist, but nowhere in the realm of Falco. Falco being a clone of fox make sense, and everyone agrees that it makes sense. Ganondorf being a clone of falcon makes sense to no one.

I'm just hoping that sakurai gives ganondorf the proper time, and basically makes him an all-new character in an old character slot, but unfortunately, I don't think that's as high a priority, so we really will just see him tweaked again.

I've mentioned previously, but even changing ONE of his specials would be big enough of a change to knock him down from 'heavy version of captain falcon' to 'kinda-clone, but not really'-tier. Give him the light ball as a projectile, or give him ganondorf's floating move as his Up B. Give him a sword slash as a smash attack. Give him a trident throw/stab as his side B, anything.

I think a good compromise is to keep all of his normal/smash attacks the same, but redo all his specials to where they actually fit his universe.

Hey, that's why I proposed this alternative.

I think this would have been a real possibility for 2004, but not so much anymore Such a perfect idea, but black shadow would be way too obscure. So so good though.

 

[theprodigy]

Right!

How are we almost halfway through OT7? It's only been over a week since it was made, right? lol

2600 more posts to the halfway point is "almost"?

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

But he's a completely different form of the character. It's similar to the Ganondorf situation.

Wario is Wario. The outfit is really the only difference.

 

[ErrorMacro]

I think Tails and Protoman should have made it in but I can guess it would be a low priority.

I still don't get why Tails wasn't an assist trophy in Brawl. Instead of choosing Sonic's most known Sidekick, they choose the dark, edgy version of Sonic.

 

[SuperSah]

2600 more posts to the halfway point is "almost"?

The rate we burn through things, yes.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Wario is Wario. The outfit is really the only difference.

There are character differences, though. Ones a Mario character, the other is a WarioWare character. The latter got into the game.

 

[RiggyRob]

Wario is Wario. The outfit is really the only difference.

I don't recall Wario having a motorbike in the GB era. Not to mention Wario-Man as a Final Smash didn't originate there either.

 

[KHlover]

2600 more posts to the halfway point is "almost"?

Well that's probably just about 2-3 days away

 

[Kriken]

2600 more posts to the halfway point is "almost"?

So... your post count from last thread will help get us to the halfway point

 

[DisconnectD]

What a grammar nazi

I know, right? I was given express permission by Heath, so look out!

I also appreciate that IntelliHeath doesn't mind people pointing out his mistakes. Very humble of you, Heath.

 

[Neiteio]

There are worse concerns with Zero Suit, like how her spine seems to be made of pipe cleaners.

I could've swore there was something in the Metroid Prime instruction manual about Chozo tech involving pipe-cleaner spines and anti-grav titties.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

There are character differences, though. Ones a Mario character, the other is a WarioWare character. The latter got into the game.

They both got into the game.

I don't recall Wario having a motorbike in the GB era. Not to mention Wario-Man as Final Smash didn't originate there either.

And I don't recall WarioWare Wario having the Shoulder Bash.

 

[theprodigy]

So... your post count from last thread will help get us to the halfway point

Halfway to the halfway point?
10/10

 

[Beelzebufo]

They both got into the game.

And I don't recall WarioWare Wario having the Shoulder Bash.

I mean technically, both Ganondorf and pig Ganon are in smash. Ganondorf should be in the NES era then.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I don't recall Wario having a motorbike in the GB era. Not to mention Wario-Man as a Final Smash didn't originate there either.

Really? I mean, Little Mac is based entirely on his Wii appearence, does that mean he debuted in the Wii game?

Not at all

Wario is the same Wario from 1992. A costume and some moves doesn't change this, or you're going down a road I don't think you want to, because it means Yoshi from Smash is representing Yoshi's Story, and I doubt people want to accept that.

 

[Ryce]

I don't recall Wario having a motorbike in the GB era. Not to mention Wario-Man as a Final Smash didn't originate there either.

Lots of old characters have newer elements (like Mario's F.L.U.D.D. and Luigi's Poltergust), but that doesn't magically change those characters' origins. Wario was born on the Game Boy. That's what Lord Byron's list is getting at.

 

[PadWarrior]

I would main the hell out of Protoman. I don't see it happening though, if anything Mega Man's alternate skins would be X, EXE, or Volnutt or something.

They could do an X alt and base off his Gameboy Color games where his sprite is short.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Really? I mean, Little Mac is based entirely on his Wii appearence, does that mean he debuted in the Wii game?

Not at all

Wario is the same Wario from 1992. A costume and some moves doesn't change this, or you're going down a road I don't think you want to, because it means Yoshi from Smash is representing Yoshi's Story, and I doubt people want to accept that.

Punch Out Wii is still a Punchout game though. WarioWare isn't Super Mario Land 10 or whatever. And of course Yoshi represents Yoshi's Story.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

Punch Out Wii is still a Mario game though. WarioWare isn't Super Mario Land 10 or whatever.

Neither is Wario World.

 

[Green Mamba]

I don't recall Wario having a motorbike in the GB era. Not to mention Wario-Man as a Final Smash didn't originate there either.

That's funny, now that you mention it, I don't recall Mario having FLUDD in the NES era!

 

[Lord_Byron28]

Really? I mean, Little Mac is based entirely on his Wii appearence, does that mean he debuted in the Wii game?

Not at all

Wario is the same Wario from 1992. A costume and some moves doesn't change this, or you're going down a road I don't think you want to, because it means Yoshi from Smash is representing Yoshi's Story, and I doubt people want to accept that.

Lots of old characters have newer elements (like Mario's F.L.U.D.D. and Luigi's Poltergust), but that doesn't magically change those characters' origins. Wario was born on the Game Boy. That's what Lord Byron's list is getting at.

Exactly. Pit is almost entirely based off of his uprising character which doesnt make him a 3DS era character. Same applies for Zelda who is almost entirely based off of OoT.

 

[RiggyRob]

Really? I mean, Little Mac is based entirely on his Wii appearence, does that mean he debuted in the Wii game?

Not at all

Wario is the same Wario from 1992. A costume and some moves doesn't change this, or you're going down a road I don't think you want to, because it means Yoshi from Smash is representing Yoshi's Story, and I doubt people want to accept that.

Technically in Smash he is now, since his model got updated. But I 'm not going to argue about that because:

Lots of old characters have newer elements (like Mario's F.L.U.D.D. and Luigi's Poltergust), but that doesn't magically change those characters' origins. Wario was born on the Game Boy. That's what Lord Byron's list is getting at.

this is right and I accept that. I was just pointing out WarioWare Wario isn't simply a costume change.

 

[Beelzebufo]

So really, if anything Ganondorf should be moved.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Give Ganondorf Wario's moveset

 

[DaBoss]

The new pose for the paralyzer looks more fierce, but ZSS' model needs to be worked on.

Wait, I seem to have missed Link's new uair, pics?

 

[Kriken]

Halfway to the halfway point?
10/10

Wait, you DIDN'T post 2600 times in the last thread? Could've fooled me

 

[Lord_Byron28]

So really, if anything Ganondorf should be moved.

No Ganondorf is a different character than pig ganon in the NES/Snes era. Ganondorf that was around in OoT, TP and WW is a different person and is a person, not pig at that.

 

[harmonize]

So really, if anything Ganondorf should be moved.

No, because that completely different (both functionality and astetically-wise) portion of Ganon's character wasn't introduced until OoT. Should we move Sheik to NES just because she's actually Zelda in disguise?

 

[Save 'N Quit]

Making Ganondorf such a terrible character in Brawl was a genius move by Sakurai because now all the fans who want him to keep his old moveset are extremely rare.

 

[Beelzebufo]

No Ganondorf is a different character than pig ganon in the NES/Snes era. Ganondorf that was around in OoT, TP and WW is a different person.

They're literally the exact same character. Except in FSA I guess.

 

[Nohar]

I want a playable Cooking Mama.

 

[Fou-Lu]

The new pose for the paralyzer looks more fierce, but ZSS' model needs to be worked on.

Thanks.

Welp, that really does look terrible.

 

[Neiteio]

For a second Uprising stage in the WiiU version, "Underworld" would be the perfect counterpart to Palutena's Temple. It'd also be a great way to squeeze in appearances by both Medusa and Hades (if they're not already appearing elsewhere). Medusa's Castle could be the focal point. You could even have stage hazards like Eggplant Wizard and Tempura Wizard.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

And I don't recall WarioWare Wario having the Shoulder Bash.

Gonna be that guy here.

Warioware Wario had his shoulderbash in at least one microgame.

 

[georly]

Thanks.

Welp, that really does look terrible.

That would be cool if like... he landed on his back once he hit the ground and kept the sword pointing up until you rolled.


Also, I want link's final smash to be the vertical skyward strike

 

[NeonZ]

There are character differences, though. Ones a Mario character, the other is a WarioWare character. The latter got into the game.

I'm pretty sure that WarioLand Wario counts as a Wario character too. In Brawl, the one WarioLand and WarioWorld stickers were considered part of the Wario series, not Mario (Waluigi was Mario though, of course).

The third option is to just tweak Ganondorf a little bit again but not change him fundamentally, which is where I think they're going to end up going. Won't alienate fans, people who have been complaining since Melee probably didn't expect differently, and it doesn't require a ton of extra work.

I think it'd help Ganondorf a lot if he got a projectile attack replacing the Warlock Punch. It wouldn't be a complete change of his fighting style, just a tweak that could make him feel much more like his Zelda self.

 

[DisconnectD]

Punch Out Wii is still a Punchout game though. WarioWare isn't Super Mario Land 10 or whatever. And of course Yoshi represents Yoshi's Story.

I hate to be rude, but what part of "origin" do you not understand? You saying Yoshi represents Yoshi's story or that Wario represents Wario Ware is like saying in etymological terms "disaster" doesn't mean destroyed star and that it means any cataclysmic event which is wrong because it "originated" in Rome and meant ill-starred event. I.e a supernova or comet's appearance meant a calamity was soon to occur.

Sure, they are still similar in meaning but the current usage is not the origin, which is the entire point of Lord Byron's list.

 

[Green Mamba]

For a second Uprising stage in the WiiU version, "Underworld" would be the perfect counterpart to Palutena's Temple. It'd also be a great way to squeeze in appearances by both Medusa and Hades (if they're not already appearing elsewhere). Medusa's Castle could be the focal point. You could even have stage hazards like Eggplant Wizard and Tempura Wizard.

I really doubt we're getting any more new Kid Icarus stages. Very few franchises in Brawl had more than one new stage (Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Metroid, and Donkey Kong), and given that there are more new franchises to represent stage wise, I would expect there to be fewer franchises with more than one, not more. I'm more concerned that we will end up with that drab Other M location as the only Metroid stage, because of those five franchises it is definitely the lowest hanging fruit.

 

[georly]

Also, why does the beetle in smash represent the normal beetle?

If i recall, all the normal beetle could do was hit things, sever rope-like things, and maybe collect hearts/rupees, but not actually GRAB anything

It should have the hook upgrade:

The hook upgrade allowed you to actually PICK THINGS UP, like bombs. And other smash players

 

[DisconnectD]

I wouldn't be so sure about that given how many new items there are from old and new franchises. Granted; items are probably much less intensive to create than entire stages, unless they can just add more neutral-esque stages using others as a base to add in more representation, kinda like padding the roster with clones, ha.

 

[Toxi]

Also, why does the beetle in smash represent the normal beetle?

If i recall, all the normal beetle could do was hit things, sever rope-like things, and maybe collect hearts/rupees, but not actually GRAB anything

It should have the hook upgrade:

The hook upgrade allowed you to actually PICK THINGS UP, like bombs. And other smash players

This is the series that had Kraid living in a pit of lava. Series-accuracy ain't Smash's strong suit.

 

[Scooter155]

So here are the problems with Ganondorf:

- Ganondorf started out as a clone because Melee had a very tight development window and Sakurai thought it would be better to include clones of fan favorites than not have the characters at all. This is basically the genesis from which all other Ganondorf decisions have been birthed.

- Ganondorf was sort of changed in Brawl, but Sakurai has (as far as we can tell, fairly openly) worried that changing him too much would alienate the people that do like his playstyle and got used to him in Melee.

- Changing Ganondorf fundamentally now requires quite a few "Fuck this" options. He could saw screw it to the people that like his old style and make it more accurate to how he is in the Zelda games, essentially doing the work you'd do for a new character but giving it to an old character slot. He could make a new character, give him Ganondorf's moveset, and give Ganon a new moveset, alienating no one but even more work than the first option while doing something he said he doesn't like doing (creating characters first and worrying about movesets and styles after). The third option is to just tweak Ganondorf a little bit again but not change him fundamentally, which is where I think they're going to end up going. Won't alienate fans, people who have been complaining since Melee probably didn't expect differently, and it doesn't require a ton of extra work.

Yeah. And given that they've separated all the transformation characters into two unique characters, having both Ganon and Ganondorf in the game makes the most sense to me, even though it would also be the most work... I can dream!

Then again, any solution that includes leaving Ganondorf in as basically a terrible clone of another character isn't all that great a solution either...

Alright Sakurai, fix Ganondorf AND put Ganon in! They're unique enough that it would work.

 

[DisconnectD]

This is the series that had Kraid living in a pit of lava. Series-accuracy ain't Smash's strong suit.

Just because you can point out a few cases of creative liberties being taken for the sake of balance or design, doesn't justify making such wild and hyperbolic claims as that.

Sakurai's games are the most meticulous & passionately made that I've ever had the pleasure to experience, details and nuance wise and I'm pretty sure most fans think the opposite of what you just said.

 

[Scooter155]

I love how something as insignificant as the order in which a poster lists characters or whether or not the beetle has the claw upgrade can inspire pages and pages worth of pedantic debates.

Love it!

Edit* I'm being sincere. It's awesome how passionate people get, and it's also hilarious.