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Idle Thumbs Megathread | Indepth discussion inbetween horsebags and birdsounds
- Thread starter Lijik
- Start date
Raaaaagh Danielle played us like a damn fiddle!
This is probably a top 5 moment in Thumbs history. So good.
The album cover used for the Soundcloud thing is even better.
TheHollowNight
Member
Hahaha, I put that in as an extra goofy touch. I probably won't keep this up on my account for long as it's actually the one I use for my music production stuff!
Sir Garbageman
Member
Two random thoughts:
Danielle is an awesome guest and I hope she ends up on the podcast more often.
The line, "and the last level is Benghazi..." had me cracking up like a maniac at work which is always fun.
Danielle is an awesome guest and I hope she ends up on the podcast more often.
The line, "and the last level is Benghazi..." had me cracking up like a maniac at work which is always fun.
I noticed Danielle made reference to her brain in the latest episode. A true thumb will always refer to their brain when describing how they responded to things. She is progressing well, and it may not be long before she starts talking about her brain being exploded Jake/Chris style.
hbkajshdvfbkjhvgkahsgdfka
Member
I think Danielle is good.
Try and think about this in the context of your own game instead of in the context of a game that you personally are not interested in playing.
There are things in Firewatch or The Walking Dead that I would rather people not just spill over the Internet but at the same time te way to actually discuss a released creative work is to actually talk about what is contained inside it, so I expect it to happen. I would rather have interesting discussions and spoilers than no discussion for the sake of no spoilers, because that means 1) the presence of the aforementioned opportunity for interesting discussion, and 2) you have the faith in your audience to manage their own content intake.
For instance... You can't even start to have the discussion Danielle was prompting without examples. "It has gross stuff in it" doesn't mean anything, and "it has gross stuff in it that is also sexist/mysogenistic" is even LESS possible to leave hanging as an assessment without discussing the specifics, because that kind of proclamation is super subjective, and because in the case of sexist content people love jumping down your throat if you don't go all the way to outline your reasoning concretely. That leaves "don't talk about it" as the only solution, or "don't talk about it until nobody cares about spoilers AKA when nobody cares about any facet of the game," which is not realistic or worthwhile in my opinion.
For instance... You can't even start to have the discussion Danielle was prompting without examples. "It has gross stuff in it" doesn't mean anything, and "it has gross stuff in it that is also sexist/mysogenistic" is even LESS possible to leave hanging as an assessment without discussing the specifics, because that kind of proclamation is super subjective, and because in the case of sexist content people love jumping down your throat if you don't go all the way to outline your reasoning concretely. That leaves "don't talk about it" as the only solution, or "don't talk about it until nobody cares about spoilers AKA when nobody cares about any facet of the game," which is not realistic or worthwhile in my opinion.
Because the situation was described and they responded to what they were told. I've not played it and thought that it was interesting (and a little disturbing) hearing about it.
There's a really easy solution to this problem: before explicitly mentioning what happens in the ending of the game, say "There is some serious problematic/possibly misogynistic content that happens in some of the side content and ending of the game. Let's talk about them but be warned, we will spoil the ending of the game and some side content." At that point you could give the listener a moment or two to decide whether they want to skip ahead or not and ample time to do so.
Saying, "The Empire Strikes Back deals only hamfistedly with the themes of fatherhood," is an easy lead in to a good discussion of what goes on in the movie, but saying "Uhhhh, the ending was so trite with Vader being Luke's dad. Oh, SPOILERS LOL," shows a lack of respect for your audience. They will never get to experience the content the way you did; it will be filtered through the lens of knowing the ending.
Saying that you have faith in your audience to manage their own content intake only works when you give them the foreknowledge of what's coming. Blurting the event then saying LOL SPOILERS is too late. How was your audience supposed to manage that? Furthermore, talking around content is basically as harmful and doubly as worthless because you have generally ruined the surprise and no meaningful conversation has come of it.
Your audience isn't stupid. If I see a shot of a giant explosion and a character diving away from it in a trailer, then watch the movie and a scene shows that same character dying before I've seen that trailer explosion, I know it's a bait and switch. There is no tension at their supposed death, there is no relief at seeing them alive, I already know there is a trick. So talking around a spoiler without mentioning the specific events (as Chris pointed out above) only works if your audience is brain dead.
The solution is to denote spoilers before they happen, then speak intensively and directly about the content without trying to weasel word your way around what you think your audience will or won't (or worse, should or shouldn't) care about.
For the record, I had already spoiled myself on MGS well before hearing the podcast but the flippant brush off of any listener's concern was sort of irksome. I'm not saying never talk about spoilers, quite the opposite, just give a little warning please.
Chris Remo
Member
I don't think "spoilers" are a big enough deal that I'm going to start worrying about it that much. We didn't know Danielle was going to bring that up; Idle Thumbs is a conversation. She didn't clear it with us ahead of time and then say "Now it's time to talk about the thing I have already decided in advance I was going to talk about." In a conversation you just talk about things as they come up and when they seem relevant, and you reply in kind. That's just what our podcast is. If people are regularly frustrated like that, I'm sorry, but I don't know any kind of consistently enforceable way to avoid that that isn't going to have a weird effect on the flow of the conversation. And on top of that I don't really think spoilers actually diminish people's enjoyment of things very much: http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2011/aug/17/spoilers-enhance-enjoyment-psychologists I know some people disagree with that, but so be it. When there are cases where we're actually winding up to some big spoiler discussion, we've often called it out, or simply decided not to have the conversation (as with Burial at Sea), but sometimes it's just not going to occur to us in the midst of conversation, and it's hard for me to feel like that's an issue that's worth changing the style of the show to deal with.
I'm not implying that it was your fault, it's in fault in thinking that it's unavoidable in conversation. Individuals know when they are spoiling or about to spoil something. It gets hand waved based on an internal value judgement of the overall material. You probably wouldn't spoil the ending of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy in an off hand remark to a friend, because you valued the experience and want them to too.
Unfortunately, that stance has basically manifested as: people shouldn't care about what I don't care about, and if they do, they are <too sensitive/not seeing the big picture/caring about the wrong things/they actually like it when they think they don't/et al>.
Again, I don't want to browbeat someone for verbally slipping up, it's more the response to the response that bothers me. I guess it's a respect thing? Metal Gear's GI Joe-caliber storyline is fatuous at best, but there are people who are fans and they kinda deserve to be respected too.
I wouldn't even worry about that as a spoiler because the whole thing is so gracelessly handled it just feels exploitative. Being used as shock value means it carries so little emotional resonance you're not missing out on a Big Reveal or Plot Twist by someone mentioning it. The discussion around how this subject matter is presented in gaming is more valuable than the five seconds of shock you'll get before you realise that was all it was intended to evoke.
In that respect I trust the Thumbs' (and associated friends of) judgement on what is and isn't a Spoiler. As Chris said, all the really deep-dive info-bomb stuff is heralded with a timestamp :]
In that respect I trust the Thumbs' (and associated friends of) judgement on what is and isn't a Spoiler. As Chris said, all the really deep-dive info-bomb stuff is heralded with a timestamp :]
yeah i thought this example was basically just gratuitous. no-one had anything to add, no real reflection, or personal experience, danielle heard from another person about content, explained what she understood from that and then people said ugh (and why is no-one talking about it i guess?).
i'm pro idle thumbs using spoilers as i hate tip-toeing around them at the expense of interesting commentary or less well supported arguments. i really want to hear them talk about burial at sea, i want them to talk about the story stuff in transistor at some point so i can better understand danielle's feelings about the ending. if danielle had played ground zeroes and had a personal reaction to the content and talked about it, that'd be great and i'd love to hear it. even if she or the others heard about it and could let's say tie it to other experiences in the metal gear series like 'press r1 to look at clevage close up' in mgs3 to reflect on her feelings about the series and why she hasn't played ground zeroes or use it as opportunity to comment on the weird makeup of kojima's stories and what it means for something that dark and scary in such a goofy cartoon game universe, that'd be fine and interesting.
ultimately i didn't feel i learned anything from having this game spoiled except for the spoiler
don't really want to sound like i'm bagging on danielle too much, though. it's not a huge deal for me and i think she's a really great guest, i just felt that part of the discussion felt off.
Thank you, finally someone with a reasonable view of spoilers. Don't put up these barriers to your conversations, it disrupts the flow. Also, If you're listening to the podcast, you can see the list of the games that are being discussed. If you're too sensitive to spoilers, then be ready to skip over the discussion until you're ready.
And personally, I really hate incessant complaining about spoilers, especially when its not something critical to the plot. You're not entitled to have others censor themselves so you can have the "pure" experience. If you're so bothered, then don't listen to things that discuss media.
I liked this episode very much and I am always glad to have Danielle Reindeau on the show, even if she is a party pooper.
Was the MGSV: Ground Zeroes content she talked about all correct? Maybe it's my fault for rushing through the game, but I played through the whole thing and I don't recall the forced rape stuff being in there. The vagina-bomb was only vaguely implied (in theory it could have been anywhere else in her body, right?).
Was the MGSV: Ground Zeroes content she talked about all correct? Maybe it's my fault for rushing through the game, but I played through the whole thing and I don't recall the forced rape stuff being in there. The vagina-bomb was only vaguely implied (in theory it could have been anywhere else in her body, right?).
Oh yes, asking for a warning is now self-censorship, wonderful view of events old chap. Yes, from now on because I haven't played one thing yet I will isolate myself from the rest of all things talking about media. Most excellent solution, I can't believe I hadn't thought of that.
snoopeasystreet
Member
Speaking of spoilers, you guys should totally talk about Mad Men again now that finished for the year.
ebullientprism
Member
Whats hilarious is IIRC none of them even made it anywhere close to finishing the game. So much for spoilers. It was a very general talk about early and mid game.
Chris Remo
Member
Nick and I finished the game; I could have sworn we talked about it?
You mentioned it in passing and didn't spoil anything. I think.
ebullientprism
Member
Did you guys finish it for the Cast of us podcast? I could swear all of you were in the middle at the most and Sean probably gave up before that. Its been a while though. So maybe I am thinking of the cast before that one.
MiniBossBattle
Member
Danielle, what are you talking about?! Isn't upon yourself to inform us by actually playing something than going by hearsay? She just drops a bomb then moves on?
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
I think you guys should handle spoilers however you see fit, but I just wanted to comment on that study that gets cited in these discussions, as it is something that bothers me a bit.
1) It's one study, and as such it's a limited set of circumstances being investigated. It's far too little on which to base the conclusion that spoilers, under a wide array of circumstances, increase enjoyment. It's a cute phenomenon of the sort social psychologists love to discover and journals love to publish, but it's also these kinds of studies that often have low replicability (and the field of social psychology is actually having a bit of a crisis over this broader issue right now).
2) One specific issue is that the subjects of the study were assigned material to consume. When we play games that we care about being spoiled, we are motivated by something stronger and more internal than the subjects in that study. In a real life situation, there is a negative hedonic value to being spoiled about something you were looking forward to that is likely not present in the artificial situation created by the study. So I find the idea that spoilers increase enjoyment across the board to be highly dubious.
Again, I don't think you should revise your spoiler policy, but you should be cognizant that you are potentially taking away something important in people's experiences. I'm fairly certain that at some point I've heard you guys acknowledge in a discussion that you didn't want to spoil something because the way it made you feel when it happened was an important part of the experience. It is probably easy to lose site of that perspective when talking about a game you haven't played and aren't particularly interested in.
Just to make this explicit. We are discussing the contents of a diary entry that is not a part of the main plot that was mentioned in passing because it contained weird sexist bullshit.
People are now complaining that they are being robbed of the opportunity to experience that for themselves. That Idle Thumbs should have more respect for others, who may want to enjoy that without being tainted by previous knowledge.
Just so we're clear here.
People are now complaining that they are being robbed of the opportunity to experience that for themselves. That Idle Thumbs should have more respect for others, who may want to enjoy that without being tainted by previous knowledge.
Just so we're clear here.
As someone who's played every single Metal Gear Solid game *except* the latest, I'm glad they brought up this disgusting tidbit so, if I ever choose to play it, I know to avoid it at all costs.
Ugh.
Just so we're clear here, we're talking about the attitude of "People were offended by this? It doesn't offend me, they shouldn't be offended." More than any specific spoiler.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
I don't think the argument for leaving fresh experiences intact hinges in any way on the political content of those experiences. Nor does it hinge on those experiences being good art or of social value.
If there was something widely considered objectionable in a film or book or whatever, I'd still prefer to experience it on my own terms first.
Can the Idle Thumbs guys please tell us their thoughts on the album Mouth Sounds?
It was actually brought up this week (by Jake I think), but it was in the midst of the Noah's Ark video mania, so the other hosts ignored its mention in favor of killing goats.
It was actually brought up this week (by Jake I think), but it was in the midst of the Noah's Ark video mania, so the other hosts ignored its mention in favor of killing goats.
D
Deleted member 59090
Unconfirmed Member
No Firewatch poster for me. I'm sad 
I feel this explains where Chris and I stand at least:
https://twitter.com/ja2ke/status/461981612876386304
I listened to it today for probably the 10th time, on the walk into work.
Haha nice. If the waveform in the picture is to be believed, it looks like Chris is listening to "No Credit Card"
It's strange to think that that album got more laughs out of me than most TV/film comedies in recent memory. The Alanis/Full House mix is particularly funny. And the Enya/Santana thing I still think is legitimately good.Elaborate further on the next podcast if you have time. I'd certainly like to hear what a musician like Chris thinks of it.
The fact they don't like it or are offended by it is kind of irrelevant to spoiling it.
Not to mention only one of them actually saw it for themselves.
For the record I don't mind spoilers as long as you give people some warning beforehand, even if it's only in the description.
TheHollowNight
Member
So I wasn't lucky enough to get one of the Firewatch posters
Super bummed out about that. I would of thought that just the mere fact that it's an Olly Moss piece would of gave them an idea of how in demand it would be. I wonder if there will ever be another run for those prints in the future.
Super bummed out about that. I would of thought that just the mere fact that it's an Olly Moss piece would of gave them an idea of how in demand it would be. I wonder if there will ever be another run for those prints in the future.
Technosteve
Banned
Hey can i chip in money so sean burns his tf2 items on stream
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