Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 8: Put mii in, coach

Just got in. What a day.

The Mii reveal was just perfect, Reggie and Iwata did great with that skit.

PALUTENA!! #TeamReal vindicated!

Pac-Man is near flawless, and the invitational was super hype. I'm ready for this game.
 
Pseudo_Sam said:
Hearing hardcore players bitch about Sakurai wanting to make Smash more accessible to new players is exactly the kind of shit that makes them so goddamn insufferable. We've had one easygoing tournament and people are already jumping to conclusions about this being the "worst" in some arbitrarily defined way. You KNOW this Smash could literally be the most perfectly "balanced" crown jewel of Sakurai genius and people would still whine because it's not Melee. It makes no sense and is incredibly obnoxious.

/rant
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I agree, even though I really started playing hard core with brawl (went back and learned melee) but MYYYYY GAWD the melee community is cancerous, YOU WILL NEVER GET MELEE 2.0, smash 4 looks fine it fixes everything wrong with brawl. People need to understand in the grand scheme of things the amount of people who want melee mechanics back make a very small portion on the smash fan base. If they were to come back cool since they aren't I'm ok with it.
 
Pseudo_Sam said:
Hearing hardcore players bitch about Sakurai wanting to make Smash more accessible to new players is exactly the kind of shit that makes them so goddamn insufferable. We've had one easygoing tournament and people are already jumping to conclusions about this being the "worst" in some arbitrarily defined way. You KNOW this Smash could literally be the most perfectly "balanced" crown jewel of Sakurai genius and people would still whine because it's not Melee. It makes no sense and is incredibly obnoxious.

/rant
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You know what's more obnoxious? People pushing legitimate criticism being leveled at the game aside or under the rug. You know what else? It doesn't make sense to you because you don't play it the way they (or maybe I should say, "we", even though I'm not part of that group that's shitting on the game after today -- I'm still going to give it a fair shake) do, with the same amount of passion they have fueled up inside about the game.

You won't begin to understand it because you don't par-take in it. Simple as that. People love Melee to death because of the deep options it offers people who choose to take the game further. Brawl is seen as worse because its depth was cut in half and people don't want the same thing to happen to Smash 4. They want it to be good as much as someone wants their favorite FPS to be the same as the last one (i.e Call of Duty).

It'd be like Activision taking Call of Duty MP and making it no longer a twitch-based shooter, or gutting it of certain gameplay those fans like in it when playing it competitively.

Let's make this more relevant to you. It'd be like Sakurai taking out items from the game completely. Would you make a huge uproar if that happened? Or, if all the stages were Battlefield clones? That would be your moment to be critical of the game and be mad at the creator, yet he'd choose to ignore you despite how valid your complaints are.

That's why people are up in arms (or some are, it's definitely not everybody).

And this isn't strictly about Melee mechanics. It's about making the game open to being good competitively and today has made some people worried, whether you like it or not.
 
emb said:
But I'm hoping it improves when I stop looking at Melee things that can't be done, and we find Smash 4 things to do that make it fun.
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I think this is the key to this whole Melee/Brawl/Smash 4 argument. Smash 4 isn't Melee HD, nor is it Brawl HD; it's its own game, with its own unique properties. For those who vastly prefer Melee, there is a Melee scene that is alive and well, and probably won't be going away any time soon. I think it's a bit silly to approach Smash 4 with a checklist of Melee features and go, "wavedashing...no, l-cancelling...no, dash dancing...no..." which is what that E3 Invitational Impressions post seemed to be doing. That kind of mindset just sets you up for disappointment; better to approach 4 with a fresh set of eyes.

BassForever said:
Just because a small section of the smash community doesn't like them doesn't mean the majority do. I'd say most people like final smashes and would rather them be powerful but not completely dominate ala Super Sonic in Brawl. You clearly don't like Smash Bros unless it's super competitive and that's fine, but don't go trashing how other people like playing the game. Coming off as an elitist when you say stuff like "they'll never be used" doesn't do you any favors
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He said they'll "never seriously be used," i.e., they'll never be used in a tournament setting. It's a statement of fact; nothing elitist about it. And he's right: DK's FS in Brawl was terrible, and should be beefed up. There's a middle ground between awful and OP, and that's where FSs should be. That fact that DK's FS is still lousy (and Rosalina's is too, given what we saw in the invitational,) shows that the developers dropped the ball a bit in that respect.
 
sorakirosaki said:
honestly though while in brawl i did like some of the final smashes in the game i do wish they changed a lot of the more not effective ones and clone fs's

dks, shieks, jigglypuff,peach, the space animals heck even the mother duo could personally have done with having some more useful smashes i get that people might like these fs's but i kinda wish they had the same oomf and tension some other fs's had
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If you're not afraid of Sheik when she gets a smash ball, you're not playing with anyone who is at least half way decent. I personally love her final. Usable anywhere on the field, goes through multiple targets, kills at relatively low percentage, goes from your position to infinity (has EPIC range).
 
hmm I wonder what impressions are like for Smash 4

- No Edgehogging, If you hold ledge, and someone else wants it after, you get kicked off
- Delay after throwing someone. Really hard to follow up
- Dash dancing is impossible
- Marth, No short hop 2x FAIR, Sluggish compared to Melee
- Pikachu, Quick Attack has massive lag on landing
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laughingjbbwp.gif
 
FCsolomon said:
I agree, even though I really started playing hard core with brawl (went back and learned melee) but MYYYYY GAWD the melee community is cancerous, YOU WILL NEVER GET MELEE 2.0, smash 4 looks fine it fixes everything wrong with brawl. People need to understand in the grand scheme of things the amount of people who want melee mechanics back make a very small portion on the smash fan base. If they were to come back cool since they aren't I'm ok with it.
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That's not fair to say. My experiences with the Smash community has been nothing but positive. Sure people have their preferences, but Melee and Brawl people were respectful to each other.

Aaronrules380 said:
A lot of that stuff wasn't even meant to be in the game though. THey were glitches and/or exploits. And simpler doesn't really equate to deeper anyways (Some of the deepest games in existence are stuff like chess and other board games that are incredibly simple rules wise). To me a lot of the advanced techniques were hidden, unknown, and pretty much just dexterity checks and this creates a wall between those who know and can use them and those who don't. The whole point of a lot of smash mechanics (like B button specials) is to remove those types of things that are prevalent in fighting games.
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Being a glitch or exploit doesn't make it bad. Developer intent is not king. Pretty much all multiplayer games have techniques or strategies not intended by devs. The beauty of Smash is that its easy to get into and hard to master. Having physical dexterity mixed with high level understanding of the games is what makes the best players.
 
Next said:
Why is this bad?
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Because it makes matches go on for a very long time. The one standard match we saw today took all 8 minutes to finish. The stock count will probably be lowered to 3, sure, but it's still less exciting when battles drone on like that. However, this could easily be chalked up more to the styles of the players. I mean, it was a Brawl champion and Hungrybox.


woah! so pretty much your options out of a dash are dash attack and jump? any word about specials?
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Here are some more things the players had to say about dashing:
Dashing
- Dash dancing is impossible
- Crouching to cancel dashing is impossible
- Pivot tilts are easy. Foxtrot is possible (F-Smash out of fox trot).
- Pivot F-smash is also doable
- Dashing is really questionable in this game
- U-Smash out of dash really easy (Flick C-stick)
- Standing grab out of full dash (shield+A, or shield + up cstick)
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[source: http://meleeiton.me/2014/06/10/invitational-impressions/]

So we still have up smash and grab. And there's dash attack. As far as attack it sounds like there are things that can be done, mobility just seems to be limited.
 
Church RvB said:
If you're not afraid of Sheik when she gets a smash ball, you're not playing with anyone who is at least half way decent. I personally love her final. Usable anywhere on the field, goes through multiple targets, kills at relatively low percentage, goes from your position to infinity (has EPIC range).
Click to expand...

for me it was the fact it was very similar to zeldas that put me off (i get that it works since shes the same character in brawl but with the whole seperate character thing gave me some kind hope they changed her final smash like they did for zss
 
So time to think about what ISN'T in the demo, that's just as revealing as what's in:

- Isaac assist trophy, at least so far. Shadow was an unlockable as well but he was shown. There's still hope.

- Pyrosphere... you know where I'm going with this right? It was one of the first revealed WiiU stages... yet it's not there. Hmmm...
 
sorakirosaki said:
honestly though while in brawl i did like some of the final smashes in the game i do wish they changed a lot of the more not effective ones and clone fs's

dks, shieks, jigglypuff,peach, the space animals heck even the mother duo could personally have done with having some more useful smashes i get that people might like these fs's but i kinda wish they had the same oomf and tension some other fs's had
Click to expand...

Jigglypuffs final smash was awesome depending on the stage. Its rather fitting too don't you think. The only other thing i could think of is to give her a mic and more range on sing so its kinda like luigis old final smash.
 
Pappasman said:
That's not fair to say. My experiences with the Smash community has been nothing but positive. Sure people have their preferences, but Melee and Brawl people were respectful to each other.



Being a glitch or exploit doesn't make it bad. Developer intent is not king. Pretty much all multiplayer games have techniques or strategies not intended by devs. The beauty of Smash is that its easy to get into and hard to master. Have physical dexterity mixed with high level understanding of the games is what makes the best players.
Click to expand...

We'll have to agree to disagree there.
 
Mr. Smiley said:
Seems alotta build up for one character.
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I don't think that is real. The icon they used on the website looks cropped. Also, the battle noises. Sounds of people being stabbed and gutted? That's not exactly the image Nintendo pushes with Smash Brothers.

I get they have games that have that kind of content, but this doesn't seem real.
 
Pappasman said:
That's not fair to say. My experiences with the Smash community has been nothing but positive. Sure people have their preferences, but Melee and Brawl people were respectful to each other.



Being a glitch or exploit doesn't make it bad. Developer intent is not king. Pretty much all multiplayer games have techniques or strategies not intended by devs. The beauty of Smash is that its easy to get into and hard to master. Have physical dexterity mixed with high level understanding of the games is what makes the best players.
Click to expand...
And? I'd rather understanding of the game be king over being able to do some obnoxious hidden technique that takes hours to even learn how to do once. I'm of the opinion that real depth is born more from simplicity than adding tons and tons of mechanics. Mastering a the core concepts should be more important than knowing an exploit or shit like that IMO
 
Pseudo_Sam said:
Hearing hardcore players bitch about Sakurai wanting to make Smash more accessible to new players is exactly the kind of shit that makes them so goddamn insufferable. We've had one easygoing tournament and people are already jumping to conclusions about this being the "worst" in some arbitrarily defined way. You KNOW this Smash could literally be the most perfectly "balanced" crown jewel of Sakurai genius and people would still whine because it's not Melee. It makes no sense and is incredibly obnoxious.

/rant
Click to expand...

The thing is Smash is already the most accessible thing in the world, even Melee. Competitive players aren't worried about it being more accessible, they're worried about their style of play being ignored, or worse, actively discouraged by things like tripping.

I've only just started following this Smash since I'm starting to think about getting a Wii U, so I can't really talk intelligently about what this game is. But having been burned by the last one I can understand why people would be quick to see faults where maybe there aren't any.
 
Axass said:
So time to think about what ISN'T in the demo, that's just as revealing as what's in:

- Isaac assist trophy, at least so far. Shadow was an unlockable as well but he was shown. There's still hope.
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This would probably be my most hyped newcomer that's in the realm of possibility. He could have such an amazing move set.

Also, this is random, but Mushroom Kingdom U looks awesome.
 
JStein0222 said:
I love how our expectations were so low that there isn't even a huge negative reaction towards the 3DS release delay.
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I'm bummed, but I'm not entirely surprised. Over the years, I've learned that Nintendo operates on Nintendo Time, which runs a couple months behind normal time. Thus "summer 2014" in Nintendo Time ends November 1, and "holiday 2014" can stretch as far as March 2015.
 
Karsticles said:
Name an instance where the "hardcore" aren't negative about a new Smash game.
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Heh I know but I try to be fair to Melee players. I know they want a certain level of play and I'm wondering if the early impressions are good. Reading through a bit I'm guessing not.
 
Aaronrules380 said:
A lot of that stuff wasn't even meant to be in the game though. THey were glitches and/or exploits. And simpler doesn't really equate to deeper anyways (Some of the deepest games in existence are stuff like chess and other board games that are incredibly simple rules wise). To me a lot of the advanced techniques were hidden, unknown, and pretty much just dexterity checks and this creates a wall between those who know and can use them and those who don't. The whole point of a lot of smash mechanics (like B button specials) is to remove those types of things that are prevalent in fighting games.
Click to expand...

L-canceling wasn't an exploit, it was intended. It was in Smash 64 officially dubbed "Smooth Landing" and was even featured on Smash 64's website at the time. They carried that over into Melee, except instead of canceling all lag, it cut it in half. They definitely intended for it to exist and with the way Smash is designed, it makes sense for you to be able to cut the lag down on aerials on your own.

That said, it isn't a necessity but rather they need to make sure every character has some kind of aerial they can use low to the ground with minimal landing lag for approaching and following-up. After what we saw today, I didn't see any aerials that weren't incredibly laggy when they landed on the ground and that bothers me immensely.
 
emb said:
Because it makes matches go on for a very long time. The one standard match we saw today took all 8 minutes to finish. The stock count will probably be lowered to 3, sure, but it's still less exciting when battles drone on like that. However, this could easily be chalked up more to the styles of the players. I mean, it was a Brawl champion and Hungrybox.
.
Click to expand...

To be fair both players are still learning how to swim in the pool of smash 4 like everyone else. I imagine when the game has been in the hands of gamers for weeks and the big tourney scenes happen most people will be fully adapted to Smash 4's gameplay and matches probably won't be as long as the final we saw today.
 
Cse said:
My issue with Sakurai is that he seemingly equates less depth and and fewer technical mechanics with being more "accessible".

Melee was incredibly deep and technical, yet as a 10 year old kid, I had no idea. I just had fun playing the game. Which brings me to my point - the new players and the casual players don't care how technical or deep the game may be, but the competitive scene does. He can easily satisfy both parties by listening to the competitive crowd.

As a 10 year old kid playing Melee, I had no idea about Wavedashing, L-cancelling, wave bouncing (I still don't understand half of them). I also was never cognizant of the speed of the game. I just had fun playing.

Yet, according to Sakurai, he has gone on record saying that Melee was too hardcore, despite the fact that I, as a casual 10 year old (along with my other elementary school friends at the time) still had an immense amount of fun with the game. If he strives to create this level of technical and competitive depth, the hardcore players will love it, and casual and newcomers won't care either way.
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10 year olds will like Smash even if it were objective shit. Competitive Melee players will not like ANYTHING EVER as much as they love Melee because they've equated it with competitive perfection in their own minds. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you've made the bar Melee, obviously nothing will match it, even if it had it's own "deep" elements or whatever. The community doesn't even try to adapt. They went out of their way to mod the shit out of Brawl to make it more like Melee. If they find a way they'll do that to this one too, regardless of it's quality. Project M Squared or some shit.

Wavedashing/edge hogging/whatever are not objectively better or more competitive techniques, they're simply what a stubborn community that refuses to change are used to. I guarantee a hardcore competitive Brawl player could consistently beat a hardcore competitive Melee player at Brawl, because (imagine that!) the games have different technical subtleties that require different ways of playing. This game will be no different. And neither will the crowd of Melee obsessors moaning that shieldedgegrabdashing is gone and the series is shite and why oh why does Sakurai insist on pandering to casuals.

/moreranting
 
I don't give a damn what the hardcore scene thinks. Just keeping playing Melee for 10 more goddamn years if you're not happy.
 
FearZoa said:
Jigglypuffs final smash was awesome depending on the stage. Its rather fitting too don't you think. The only other thing i could think of is to give her a mic and more range on sing so its kinda like luigis old final smash.
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yeah it was sweet on certain stages but i kinda wish they had made it a bit more viable on other stages as well dont get me wrong i dont absolutely loathe these final smashes but i did wish as since this is a new game with some of the characters getting different games in their own libraries, i was hoping for some changes to certain final smashes
 
I pretty much gave up on Snake after Ground Zeroes released and we heard nothing about him in the Smash Direct. The Pac-Man trailer basically showcased Mario and the other 3rd party characters together at last making Snake feel like the odd man out, and in general I think Pac-Man may have been the last 3rd party character for this game.

Pretty freaking bummed. I'm a big MGS fan but I also really loved how Snake played in Brawl as he was one of my favorite newcomers. He was historic as the first 3rd party character in the series and I'm disappointed to say the least.
 
Neiteio said:
I've watched it about 500 times by now, but I could go for 501
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Neiteio, I remember you and I got in a discussion about Pacs in a previous OT. Looks like you were right and I'll have to learn to deal with his inclusion...

... but honestly, Sakurai seems to have taken the character and made him into an interesting fighter, so it's not so bad =p
 
Pseudo_Sam said:
10 year olds will like Smash even if it were objective shit. Competitive Melee players will not like ANYTHING EVER as much as they love Melee because they've equated it with competitive perfection in their own minds. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you've made the bar Melee, obviously nothing will match it, even if it had it's own "deep" elements or whatever. The community doesn't even try to adapt. They went out of their way to mod the shit out of Brawl to make it more like Melee. If they find a way they'll do that to this one too, regardless of it's quality. Project M Squared or some shit.

Wavedashing/edge hogging/whatever are not objectively better or more competitive techniques, they're simply what a stubborn community that refuses to change are used to. I guarantee a hardcore competitive Brawl player could consistently beat a hardcore competitive Melee player at Brawl, because (imagine that!) the games have different technical subtleties that require different ways of playing. This game will be no different. And neither will the crowd of Melee obsessors moaning that shieldedgegrabdashing is gone and the series is shite and why oh why does Sakurai insist on pandering to casuals.

/moreranting
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Yep. Pretty much my issue. I mean, stuff like tripping is bullshit, but guess what: Not in Smash 4. Let the game be it's own thing and not a melee expansion pack
 
Dismissing complaints by saying they're invalid or a 'keep it to yourself' attitude is a really toxic attitude to have. Let's have a discussion here. We're sharing opinions here not throwing fists.
 
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