Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 8: Put mii in, coach

I have nothing against competitive players, but I'm glad I'm not as obsessed as some people are with this game being what they think is competitive that they can't even seem to enjoy the game...

Anyway, yesterday was cool with 3 new characters and a half confirmation of Mr. Game & Watch (otherwise, it'd be the cruelest tease ever).
 
Man....I'm tired.

I was Smashfest for over two hours, but couldn't get to the Wii U version because the line was sooo long :(

Although I did play the 3DS version and was wowed by how well it plays. Very polished, I see why this version is coming out sooner with an actual release date.

Luigi has a new down throw, basically a butt stomp lol.

Greninja is what I call a "Sheik & Lucario" hybrid. Looking good.

Hopefully I can make it to the saturday one and play Olimar on the Wii U one. Kinda disappointed I couldn't do that but luckily some of the Best Buy employees gave me and a couple friends some vouchers to get in to a fast line and play it immediately!

Edit: I guess I won't have any real technical impressions until I play the Wii U one this weekend.
 
GameGuru59 said:
Ok. Having not played the game yet, I think Sakurai is trying to punish players for trying to chain an air attack directly into the ground. If you attacked directly into the ground in real life, you would have alot of landing lag because you'd be off balance (presumably, depending on the attack). Sakurai may have done this to prevent the tendency for competitive players to hop like an inch off the ground and flip out aerials as though they were on the ground (which was possible on Melee and I guess 64). To me, that's a fair change. That shit was annoying to me in Melee anyway- here's why:

To me, Smash should be a fighter about strategically maneuvering around a stage. Not about exploiting every frame of information out of a character. This was basically what Smash 64 was. Even now, if you watch 64 competitive play it's much more about exploiting where the character is, rather than who can who can preform the fastest muscle memory move on the controller. Melee is the opposite. Much more focus on exploiting the intricacies of the games controls, and less focus on stage strategy. I don't think this was what Sakurai intended, and he essentially retaliated against the competitive community with Brawl (tripping, Meta-Knight, and so on). Even though he'd never admit it, I'm pretty sure he perceived the competitive community as an elitist undesirable side-effect of the game's success. Why else add tripping? It was essentially a "fuck you!" to the tourney scene.

Brawl, forgiving everything its did wrong, played much more like 64. It was much slower than Melee, and stage positioning was critically important- which is why I loved the stage creator so much (puhleassse bring it back!). Smash 4 may return to this philosophy again (albeit quite a bit faster than Brawl). Long story short, this is not Melee. It's going to be different, and I'm okay with that.
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This notion that Sakurai wants to screw the competitive community for whatever reason should seriously die.
 
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zroid said:
How much time are you allotted to play the demo?
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Everyone got two two-minute matches until my friend and I went up. We were the first group to only get one two-minute match. The Nintendo rep told us to tell her on Saturday and she'll give us more playtime.

They had to limit the time because the line was still around the block three hours in.
 
man...was really hoping to play....I waited in line for 3.5hrs, and didn't get to play either version

hopefully I can make it on Saturday since they gave me and the other 8 people at the end of the line wristbands to come in early, but don't even know if I can or not now
 
ErrorMacro said:
This notion that Sakurai wants to screw the competitive community for whatever reason should seriously die.
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It'll die when you can explain tripping. Otherwise people, including myself will hold that opinion. I don't really have a dog in this fight either way, I'm just an avid non-competitive Smash player. But the message sent by the tripping "feature" was obvious.

EDIT: Also the quote below this very post. It's not that he hates competitive play per-say. It's that he simply despises Smash being dominated by extremely skilled players. This come through in a number of different quotes from the man. Melee tourney players broke the game, essentially. Brawl's tripping was a (unfortunate) response to this exploitation of the game's mechanics.I think with Smash 4, Sakurai is trying to make a game that cannot be played any way besides the way he intended.
 
Cse said:
Just listened to this...a little shocked by something Sakurai said.

"If we develop the game with the veteran player in mind, our job is easier. The flip side is we reduce the number of people who are enjoying and playing the game."

I just don't understand this mindset.
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Pretty sure he means more that if you only target veteran players then you'll be left with something that has new players feeling left out. Not that they don't want to target veterans at all. Also, I'd be curious on what percentage of the people playing Brawl who AREN'T in any way acquainted with the competitive scene think of it compared to Melee. I kind of feel like the melee preference is something that mostly exists in Super enthusiasts and the core crowd (and I think this is also in part due to group think for many). It's hard to gauge what the overall opinion on Brawl is when the people talking about it online all belong to a single category of gamers
 
Cse said:
Just listened to this...a little shocked by something Sakurai said.

"If we develop the game with the veteran player in mind, our job is easier. The flip side is we reduce the number of people who are enjoying and playing the game."

I just don't understand this mindset.
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It is a bad opinion honestly, one of the reasons I feel that Sakurai shouldn't be in charge of developing any more Smash games. No one picked up Melee when the game first came out and hated it. EVERYONE loved that fucking game top to bottom, and the competitive community just kept it going for years after.

Balance the game for fun competitive play, drop crazy content, items, and levels. Everyone is happy.
 
Alchemy said:
It is a bad opinion honestly, one of the reasons I feel that Sakurai shouldn't be in charge of developing any more Smash games. No one picked up Melee when the game first came out and hated it. EVERYONE loved that fucking game top to bottom, and the competitive community just kept it going for years after.

Balance the game for fun competitive play, drop crazy content, items, and levels. Everyone is happy.
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Smash is sakurai's creation. Sure we may not agree with some of his decisions, but it's still his call.
 
Gilby said:
Just got back from the Best Buy thing.

I played as Marth (and won), then Little Mac (came 2nd). I was worried after Marth, having just recently been playing melee he seemed slow, BUT Little Mac was a much faster character.

Still not sure how to feel about the game over all, it felt more like Brawl than Melee but I guess if it's balanced that's not SO bad.

Still day 1, but my hype is deflated somewhat.
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Feeling more like Brawl is not a bad thing at all.
Alchemy said:
It is a bad opinion honestly, one of the reasons I feel that Sakurai shouldn't be in charge of developing any more Smash games. No one picked up Melee when the game first came out and hated it. EVERYONE loved that fucking game top to bottom, and the competitive community just kept it going for years after.

Balance the game for fun competitive play, drop crazy content, items, and levels. Everyone is happy.
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I wouldn't even bother with a Smash game not made by Sakurai.
 
Alchemy said:
It is a bad opinion honestly, one of the reasons I feel that Sakurai shouldn't be in charge of developing any more Smash games. No one picked up Melee when the game first came out and hated it. EVERYONE loved that fucking game top to bottom, and the competitive community just kept it going for years after.

Balance the game for fun competitive play, drop crazy content, items, and levels. Everyone is happy.
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Yep. It's been said so many times, but competitive games (or agressive, or high skill ceiling, whatever) aren't mutually exclusive with fun casual (or party) games. I enjoyed Melee more in both regards. I don't understand why Sakurai can't seem to embrace it. His self proclaimed mission seems to be to make the games great fun for everyone, but the actual approach he seems to take is to try and focus the games towards one particular group. Or do both sides feel like that? I dunno.
 
Today one of my dreams came true. Ever since I got my hands on the SSBM issue of EGM 13 years ago, I salivated at the screenshots, the photos of the show floor, the thought of being able to go to E3 and get my hands on all of the awesome new Nintendo games before basically anyone else.

While the "attend E3" part of the dream will have to wait for another year, I got to play the new Smash Bros months before launch. For both Wii U and 3DS. Thank you based NOA for this amazing idea of bringing E3 demos to Best Buys across the nation. While it could be improved upon (longer hours? more setups?), the fact that NINTENDO of all companies is at the forefront of this kind of effort really blows my mind.

Anyways, after last years E3 event, I decided it would probably be wise to choose a different Best Buy location. One a bit further from the city, with a little lower population density. I was able to play only one demo last year after waiting for two hours, after all. This is Smash Bros we're talking about here. If I have to take a little longer drive to get more playtime with the game, I will.

So I headed north. It was a 50 minute drive, and I listened to nothing but the Metal Gear Rising soundtrack. Why? Why not. You should all play that game. Anyways, I reached the "middle of nowhere" Best Buy an hour and a half before the event was set to begin. As I enter the parking lot, I see something near the entrance of the store. No. It couldn't be!

2:30 PM
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A line had already formed! I asked the people in front of me when they arrived, and they said they had just gotten there, but the people at the front were there from 1PM. That's 3 hours before the event. I love Smash more than the average bear, but my god.

And so, the excruciating wait began. 90 minutes of Pushmo, street passing and reflecting on E3 news began. A Nintendo rep began handing out sign up sheets for the game, and these papers, as they would send us Canadians the special Smash Bros. coin in the mail since they didn't ship in time:
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I was 24th in line.

Soon after I arrived, another group of people showed up. And another. And then, another. The line quickly ballooned to a level that surpassed even the entirety of the E3 Best Buy event last year. Majority seemed to be in their early to mid twenties. From the looks of it, as a 21 year old, I felt on the younger side of the group. Lots of people skipping work, and not many kids skipping school, it seemed. 3DSes everywhere.

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After the longest 90 minutes of my life, they started letting people into the store, 10 by 10. Another 30 minutes passed, and I found myself at the front of the line! It was at that point that I discovered that not only were Wii U Pro Controllers going to be used for Smash U, but unannounced, unadvertised Smash 3DS demos were tethered to Nintendo reps at the front of the line! Unreal.

So I was able to play the 3DS demo for a bit before the Wii U demo. Of course, I immediately chose

*TO BE CONTINUED*
 
Golnei said:
Star Trek Barbie will probably get some mileage in the eternal sexualisation-of-Samus debates.
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Space Barbie, maybe, I don't see anything Star Trek about her. Then again, why do you need sarcastic quips when you can just link to Other M's theatre mode?
 
So I read on Smashboards that Pikachu can quick attack 3 TIMES. (Recovery) Can anyone confirm this? And can anyone else explain their situation with their Best Buy and the coins?
 
People are saying nobody disliked Melee. But that isn't the right question. THe right question is did any more casual players prefer the changes that existed in Brawl. Because ultimately there are way more casual players than competitive players and that's not going to change.

And I really think a lot of the brawl hate online is almost entirely the result of group think. A few people online were dissatisfied and very vocal about it, this led to other's becoming more critical and then they just kept reinforcing each others opinions until people started acting like it was the worst thing ever. THis also results in many people from not voicing contradicting opinions for fear of getting flamed and attacked, or only voicing them in isolated communities. It's the same principle behind the Zelda cycle (almost Everybody loves the game immediately after release, but after a few people start pointing out complaints and acting like it's a big deal other people start to perceive the issues as bigger than they initially had and this leads to increasing sentiment against the games. THis sentiment only reverses once another Zelda game comes out and people stop focusing as much on the older one)
 
HawthorneKitty said:
Wow, never saw that form...
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Instead of that form, we just had pre order cards, a different one for each of the two games.

Aaronrules380 said:
People are saying nobody disliked Melee. But that isn't the right question. THe right question is did any more casual players prefer the changes that existed in Brawl. Because ultimately there are way more casual players than competitive players and that's not going to change.

And I really think a lot of the brawl hate online is almost entirely the result of group think. A few people online were dissatisfied and very vocal about it, this led to other's becoming more critical and then they just kept reinforcing each others opinions until people started acting like it was the worst thing ever. THis also results in many people from not voicing contradicting opinions for fear of getting flamed and attacked, or only voicing them in isolated communities. It's the same principle behind the Zelda cycle (almost Everybody loves the game immediately after release, but after a few people start pointing out complaints and acting like it's a big deal other people start to perceive the issues as bigger than they initially had and this leads to increasing sentiment against the games. THis sentiment only reverses once another Zelda game comes out and people stop focusing as much on the older one)
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I think that's a somewhat fair point, but it also brings the question to mind: do the casual players that prefer Brawl like it for mechanics, or because it has more characters, items, stages, and music? I generally see the latter as the reasons. The right question then: would casual players have really cared one way or the other if Brawl had Melee's mechanics?
 
GameGuru59 said:
It'll die when you can explain tripping. Otherwise people, including myself will hold that opinion. I don't really have a dog in this fight either way, I'm just an avid non-competitive Smash player. But the message sent by the tripping "feature" was obvious.
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Sakurai wanted the game to be easier for newcomers. Usually, a way to do this is to add randomness to the game. Hence why other mechanics, such as stage hazards and itens are luck based. Tripping was just a way to add a luck factor deeper into the game core. This way, even a newcomer, who didn't play that well, would have better chances to win if he had luck. This is how you explain tripping.

I might have sounded a bit harsh, but the whole premise of Sakurai saying fuck you to the competitive community makes no sense whatsoever. Sakurai and the development team don't have a vendetta against the competitive community, they simply design the game favoring casual play. And in many cases, this way of designing the game ends up with them adding mechanics that make the game less competitive, such as tripping.

Do I agree with it? Certainly not. I think its completely possible to create a game that plays well both casually and competitively, and if there's one point where I deeply wish Sakurai would improve is in how he interacts and accepts criticism of the community. People can blame him for that as much as they want, but acting like he does this out of spite is pure conspiracy theory.
 
Cse said:
Just listened to this...a little shocked by something Sakurai said.

"If we develop the game with the veteran player in mind, our job is easier. The flip side is we reduce the number of people who are enjoying and playing the game."

I just don't understand this mindset.
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It's the same mindset that brought you "Mii Fighter isn't playable online because of bullying."

Sakurai's a genius but his thought process is a little... eccentric.
 
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