Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 8: Put mii in, coach

Revven said:
Interesting stuff. prog is taking questions on his ask.fm and he was asked about if Nintendo is interested in bridging the gap with comp. Smash from here on. Quote below



http://ask.fm/askprog/answer/114755102573

That's crazy to know some donated to the EVO drive! I wonder if that's how the reversal of their decision last year came about so quickly, because some of the people at Nintendo actually knew about it? Either way, cool answer, I thought. Kind of makes me rest a little more easy.
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I have no doubt that NoA would take an interest in hearing about what prog and competitive players have to say in terms of feedback, but I have very little hope for that feedback ever reaching sakurai, and if it does, he probably won't care about what they had to say.
 
JoeInky said:
I have no doubt that NoA would take an interest in hearing about what prog and competitive players have to say in terms of feedback, but I have very little hope for that feedback ever reaching sakurai, and if it does, he probably won't care about what they had to say.
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I know, that's my worry man. :(
 
It was both Miis and Palutena that made him leave lol...

EDIT: I'm late lol
Revven said:
Interesting stuff. prog is taking questions on his ask.fm and he was asked about if Nintendo is interested in bridging the gap with comp. Smash from here on. Quote below

http://ask.fm/askprog/answer/114755102573

That's crazy to know some donated to the EVO drive! I wonder if that's how the reversal of their decision last year came about so quickly, because some of the people at Nintendo actually knew about it? Either way, cool answer, I thought. Kind of makes me rest a little more easy.
Click to expand...
I think people should give more credit to NoA. They are kind of restricted and bounded by NCL. I remember it being said that the lawyers were taking action before asking Nintendo regarding EVO last year? That may not be true, but I still think people shouldn't be so down on NoA.

Remember the WWHD Wii U donation at AGDQ this past year by NoA for the WW run? NoA aren't filled with clueless people, but is just limited since it isn't the head of operations for all of Nintendo.

And then to be realistic, just because employees on NoA are taking notes, it doesn't mean it Sakurai or the dev team will get those notes.
 
Prog is talking so much sense right now:

prog said:
Is Melee Social cancer?
You have to learn that the vocal minority sometimes should be a whisper in your head rather than the screams you perceive
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prog said:
Do you think Smash 4 will be as competitive as Melee?
Competition isn't decided by the game, its decided by the hunger of the players. It will be if the players are dedicated enough.
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--------

IntelliHeath said:
He's serious.. I asked him in chatroom, and he said Yes, he's very serious. Then he left the chatroom, and we haven't heard from him ever since.
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wat
 
Revven said:
This is the kind of shit that's toxic. Stop it, you're not being any better than the people who are being overreactionary.

Look, let me explain this again: it has nothing to do with making the game like Melee. Melee is just the closest, no, the pinnacle example of a competitive game in the Smash series. People compare to it because they really don't know what to describe in it that makes it so good for competition. They just use it as an example because it's quick and easy. Oh and I should clarify, by they I mean the low-mid level players that are shitposting on smashboards and r/smashbros. The people who actually compete at tournaments could describe it very easily, describe what they'd want out of Smash 4 without using the word 'Melee'.

Let me tell you what makes Melee competitive: movement options out the wazoo. Your dash/run can be stopped by crouching, this gives you access to both your down smash and down tilt as approach options. From a crouch, you could then switch to standing instead and use a different tilt or even a different smash attack. That is just one example of the kind of movement option that makes Melee what it is. And that, again, is not even wavedashing. It is an intuitive option that even a casual player can benefit from knowing, just as much as a casual player benefits from being able to shield the end of their run to gain access to their grounded moves.

And I guarantee you that run -> crouch was intentionally programmed in Melee, just like run -> shield works in all the games. It's something you can do out of your run just like you can do an Usmash out of your run with the C-stick. It doesn't hurt casual players at all to have this option in the game yet Sakurai took it out.

All people want are intuitive, non-glitch, movement options. And an ability to use those options to expand the game at a higher level -- whether that's through combos, mind games, etc etc. That is seriously it. And if you somehow have qualms with people being able to crouch out of their run, you have some serious issues on this.

Again, that is just one example of a movement option. Another example that wouldn't hurt casual players is one that exists in all platformers: momentum being carried from your run into your jump. What that does is it allows characters with faster running speeds to leap across the stage to approach a character. What happens right now in Brawl and seemingly Smash 4 is this momentum is not carried and therefore your character essentially is awkwardly moving in the air as if they just jumped from a standing position. It is logical physics, as well, because when you run in any platformer (hell, even Mario games) you carry the momentum from your jump. It was amazing to have this in Melee and not just because it was in Melee but because every character could make use of it and it helped them in various ways to put up an offense on someone.

But it seems to be absent from Smash 4, again. Taking that particular option out only hurts characters that have speed built-in with them in mind such as Captain Falcon, Fox, Sonic, etc etc. You might say that's a good thing but again look at how Captain Falcon was in Brawl. He was terrible. A large part of that was because of the lack of this option existing in Brawl. Secondly, it might appear good because it makes the fast characters on the same playing field as the slower characters but in actuality the slower characters could make use of it this just as much. Characters like Mario, DK, and even Ganondorf had really good approach options just from this physics-related option that was in the game. And you can even see how they benefit from this in Project M, as PM re-added it.

If you have zero understanding of what makes competitive Smash, you shouldn't shit on people who do. There are definitely people who are overreacting and expressing themselves on gut reactions because they really don't want a game that will likely not advance the community forward. People want to like and play this game seriously but they can't if the game doesn't offer these kinds of options and from what people played and saw, the options aren't there. It's frustrating to, once again, not get heard from the developer of the series you love. You think after all these years, with so much tournament footage available on Youtube, they would have an understanding of what the competitive players are looking for: intuitive movement options.

I hope this post has been enlightening to some degree because man, I am so tired of posts like the above. It is not healthy for the entire community whatsoever. If you have nothing good to say, don't say it at all.
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I'm quoting this again because it cannot be stressed enough. People need to understand that there is toxicity from both sides of the community (competitive and casual) and they absolutely do not represent the community as a whole.

As fan of smash brothers I'm sure we all want to enjoy the latest installment as much as everybody, specially without hurting the enjoyment of one part of the fandom without the other.

I think that concerns about gameplay/movement are as valid as concerns about items/final smash. If sakurai suddenly decided to focus mostly on the competitive side of things and gave very little importance to the casual side of it then you can bet there would be a lot of people pissed off too, and with very valid reasons to so so.

Basically what I think a lot of the competitive fans of smash want is that there are ways to reach a perfect medium between both aspects of the game without making sacrifices. Some people play the game in a way and other people play it some other way, if the focus is on catering to new people then reaching a happy medium would be the perfect way to so that, while at the same time pleasing the current fanbase.
 
Revven said:
This is the kind of shit that's toxic. Stop it, you're not being any better than the people who are being overreactionary.

Look, let me explain this again: it has nothing to do with making the game like Melee. Melee is just the closest, no, the pinnacle example of a competitive game in the Smash series. People compare to it because they really don't know what to describe in it that makes it so good for competition. They just use it as an example because it's quick and easy. Oh and I should clarify, by they I mean the low-mid level players that are shitposting on smashboards and r/smashbros. The people who actually compete at tournaments could describe it very easily, describe what they'd want out of Smash 4 without using the word 'Melee'.

Let me tell you what makes Melee competitive: movement options out the wazoo. Your dash/run can be stopped by crouching, this gives you access to both your down smash and down tilt as approach options. From a crouch, you could then switch to standing instead and use a different tilt or even a different smash attack. That is just one example of the kind of movement option that makes Melee what it is. And that, again, is not even wavedashing. It is an intuitive option that even a casual player can benefit from knowing, just as much as a casual player benefits from being able to shield the end of their run to gain access to their grounded moves.

And I guarantee you that run -> crouch was intentionally programmed in Melee, just like run -> shield works in all the games. It's something you can do out of your run just like you can do an Usmash out of your run with the C-stick. It doesn't hurt casual players at all to have this option in the game yet Sakurai took it out.

All people want are intuitive, non-glitch, movement options. And an ability to use those options to expand the game at a higher level -- whether that's through combos, mind games, etc etc. That is seriously it. And if you somehow have qualms with people being able to crouch out of their run, you have some serious issues on this.

Again, that is just one example of a movement option. Another example that wouldn't hurt casual players is one that exists in all platformers: momentum being carried from your run into your jump. What that does is it allows characters with faster running speeds to leap across the stage to approach a character. What happens right now in Brawl and seemingly Smash 4 is this momentum is not carried and therefore your character essentially is awkwardly moving in the air as if they just jumped from a standing position. It is logical physics, as well, because when you run in any platformer (hell, even Mario games) you carry the momentum from your jump. It was amazing to have this in Melee and not just because it was in Melee but because every character could make use of it and it helped them in various ways to put up an offense on someone.

But it seems to be absent from Smash 4, again. Taking that particular option out only hurts characters that have speed built-in with them in mind such as Captain Falcon, Fox, Sonic, etc etc. You might say that's a good thing but again look at how Captain Falcon was in Brawl. He was terrible. A large part of that was because of the lack of this option existing in Brawl. Secondly, it might appear good because it makes the fast characters on the same playing field as the slower characters but in actuality the slower characters could make use of it this just as much. Characters like Mario, DK, and even Ganondorf had really good approach options just from this physics-related option that was in the game. And you can even see how they benefit from this in Project M, as PM re-added it.

If you have zero understanding of what makes competitive Smash, you shouldn't shit on people who do. There are definitely people who are overreacting and expressing themselves on gut reactions because they really don't want a game that will likely not advance the community forward. People want to like and play this game seriously but they can't if the game doesn't offer these kinds of options and from what people played and saw, the options aren't there. It's frustrating to, once again, not get heard from the developer of the series you love. You think after all these years, with so much tournament footage available on Youtube, they would have an understanding of what the competitive players are looking for: intuitive movement options.

I hope this post has been enlightening to some degree because man, I am so tired of posts like the above. It is not healthy for the entire community whatsoever. If you have nothing good to say, don't say it at all.
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You're doing god's work, son. Bolded should be reposted to oblivion.
 
JoeInky said:
But what made melee an exciting game to play and watch was due to all those movement options allowing you to have all these different free-flowing combos based on the type of stage you're on, the percentage your enemy has and your reads about where they would DI. These movement options are parts of the fundamentals of what makes smash such a good series.

Smash 4 can have it's own identity and not be like melee, but when you remove the ability to have these combos from the game because you don't have these movement options, you don't end up with something that should 'excite you greatly' because you're just going to end up with a game that's boring to play and watch at a competitive level.

I don't see how anyone can have the opinion that allowing for combos in the game so that players can actually have any kind of style in their gameplay isn't about improving the game and more about stopping it from changing.
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As I said, I do not want to endorse that Smash 4 is perfect or that every change is good just because its different. I'm also not saying that everything that people list as improvements are not improvements! Do I think Brawl's lack of combos and slower speed were better? No, I preferred Melee and the fact that Smash 4 has combos and a faster speed are both things I really like. However, I still enjoyed the hell out of Brawl and enjoyed approaching the game differently because the changes. Brawl still had certain changes and additions that were not improvements and did poorly affect the game though.

I also think Brawl made certain changes that improved the game over Melee, mostly in the crazy, four player free-for-all side of the game. Given the variety of ways Smash can be played, it's difficult to argue how changes improve or are better. Some are pretty obvious, but most aren't. I've also seen a bunch of changes in Smash 4 that I really like and feel they improve over Melee and Brawl.

I just don't want people to write-off every change as bad so early. I think the changes are interesting from the viewpoint that they cause us to approach the game in a different manner, which is always exciting for me. I totally understand why people want more Melee similarities though. Nothing wrong with that.
 
Another really interesting thing to note from prog's ask.fm!

Will Nintendo really be taking feedback I love melee and P:M i just want smash 4 a bit faster with more combos.

They were asking people on the floor and the invitees about their thoughts, liked and didn't like, etc. All of the Smash games have their own things that make them special, and in the past while I definitely wished for a carbon copy, now I understand the necessity to make progress. I feel like two tweaks could make this game the perfect balance between Melee and Brawl and maybe unite the scene.
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http://ask.fm/askprog/answer/114755756397

Actual confirmation of Nintendo asking for feedback from the players that went to E3 and played in the Invitational. I really hope THAT feedback reaches the dev team, then.
 
Prog freaking gets it

Whatever it is, I'm going to play it. I like the speed, I like the characters and how cohesive they feel, however, everyone is making judgements too soon in the game. The sky is falling! We're playing a demo of an alpha, we're looking for things day -164 when every other game has had years of development.
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DaBoss said:
It was both Miis and Palutena that made him leave lol...

EDIT: I'm late lol

I think people should give more credit to NoA. They are kind of restricted and bounded by NCL. I remember it being said that the lawyers were taking action before asking Nintendo regarding EVO last year? That may not be true, but I still think people shouldn't be so down on NoA.

Remember the WWHD Wii U donation at AGDQ this past year by NoA for the WW run? NoA aren't filled with clueless people, but is just limited since it isn't the head of operations for all of Nintendo.

And then to be realistic, just because employees on NoA are taking notes, it doesn't mean it Sakurai or the dev team will get those notes.
Click to expand...

I don't think Sakurai gives a shit, but I'm trying the tweet anyway. Because I think there are some serious problems for both casuals and competetive players. 5-10 year olds and shallow fanatics probably don't give a shit and will play because its Smash but even my wife was a bit upset when she was playing and didn't feel right and she's a casual who is generally decent and can pass the Mario test (being able to pick up Mario, and do well with him despite rarely playing him).

Does anyone REALLY know the relationship of NoA with NCL? I was part of the Mother push when it was very hot in the early 00s and we basically got both sides blaming the other for the fuck ups on listening to the fans.
 
Bailing out of the game based on Miis (that are pretty much the pinnacle of optional since you can't use it online) and Palutena (one of a gigantic roster of characters) is kinda silly when they've already hit so many other high points with the updates to the returning cast and wild additions like Pac-Man representing Namco's entire arcade history (instead of just their recent bastardization of him).
 
ohNOitsRO said:
Not sure how I feel about Chrom being put in and Shulk if the leaks are correct... Don't we have enough sword wielding peeps already?

Maybe one or the other, but just from pure aesthetics Ike, Marth, Shulk, Chrom seems like overkill

Obviously I don't know how Chrom/Shulk would play, but at least with Ike and Marth we had a distinct power vs. speed motif going on, and I'm not sure where Chrom or Shulk would be categorized under..

Granted I haven't played any of the xenoblade games with Shulk so I'm not entirely sure what kind of character he could be, (Magic Sword wielding badass? Sword throwing melee/range madness?) so maybe someone could shed light on that? But definitely Chrom seems to be an Ike clone

EDIT: I mean I'd love all of them to be put in honestly, I just hope no one else that could be different/unique were cut in place of one of these
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Shulk is actually pretty different from other sword guys. In terms of gameplay, he is actually more rogue-like: he uses stealth and likes attacking enemies from the side or back. His large blade actually is more of a spell-casting tool than anything; it is all about special abilities, such as creating defensive barriers or granting speed/evasion boosts. It would be cool if they could reflect his teamwork focused fighting style in Smash Bros.
 
Berordn said:
Bailing out of the game based on Miis (that are pretty much the pinnacle of optional since you can't use it online) and Palutena (one of a gigantic roster of characters) is kinda silly when they've already hit so many other high points with the updates to the returning cast and wild additions like Pac-Man representing Namco's entire arcade history (instead of just their recent bastardization of him).
Click to expand...

Those two were also pretty obvious and considered likely from the get-go. Bit weird.
 
Anteo said:
I dont think there is time to modify that much, unless you do it in a post launch patch
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There's three months at least for the Wii U version to potentially get rid of the insane landing lag on aerials, at least. At least that much would probably make the game feel better. I know for a fact that was probably one of the things they told Nintendo as even prog mentioned it as a complaint of his in one of his ask.fm responses.
 
Anteo said:
I dont think there is time to modify that much, unless you do it in a post launch patch
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Crunch time gets a lot done. They have about 1.5 months before the game probably goes gold. 2.5 before the NA/EU one goes gold. Yes, I'm implying they're going to fix any issues with the Japanese versions of the game.

The Wii U version has more time than the the 3DS version which is what I was referring to in the with the times mentioned before.
 
IntelliHeath said:
He is out of Smash Bros Business since Mii and Palutena got confirmed. He got upset that both of them got confirmed.



He's serious.. I asked him in chatroom, and he said Yes, he's very serious. Then he left the chatroom, and we haven't heard from him ever since.
Click to expand...

I remember seeing the original post, and thought maybe he was just being sarcastic and a little sore for lols. But wow, dude has issues.

But then I remembered this one girl on Gamefaqs who absolutely refused to play TvC because she absolutely couldn't stand Frank West's voice and was demanding the other users to tell her how can she play it without unlocking him. Everyone there was baffled but she assured everyone she was dead serious.
 
JStein0222 said:
Maybe DLC? Doubtful because there doesn't seem to be an icon character for the series and the game will come out after smash does,
Click to expand...

That's exactly why it would be a playable character... even more advertising. Plus, the concept is great on paper. A character that can shoot ink from a gun, and duck and maneuver through it.
 
Choppasmith said:
I remember seeing the original post, and thought maybe he was just being sarcastic and a little sore for lols. But wow, dude has issues.

But then I remembered this one girl on Gamefaqs who absolutely refused to play TvC because she absolutely couldn't stand Frank West's voice and was demanding the other users to tell her how can she play it without unlocking him. Everyone there was baffled but she assured everyone she was dead serious.
Click to expand...

To be fair he did sound dumb in that game
 
It's still being developed so things can still change so I can't make any conclusions. Smash 4 being faster than Brawl is a start and I welcome that change.

Azure J said:
Oh wow, I totally forgot about Captain Syrup. :lol
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If I didn't have these avatars, I'd probably forget from time to time also. lol :x
 
Jock_Nerd said:
That's exactly why it would be a playable character... even more advertising. Plus, the concept is great on paper. A character that can shoot ink from a gun, and duck and maneuver through it.
Click to expand...

Eh would be a bit of a buzzkill for me. I want Nintendo All Stars not Super Advertisement Bros
 
Never seen the beef against sword users. I mean Soul Calibur shows you can have a complete roster with weapon users.
 
JoeInky said:
I have no doubt that NoA would take an interest in hearing about what prog and competitive players have to say in terms of feedback, but I have very little hope for that feedback ever reaching sakurai, and if it does, he probably won't care about what they had to say.
Click to expand...

Ugh.

NoA would probably love to see the new Smash become a e-sports phenomenon. The fans want a deep, technically competitive game. None of this would prevent the game from being an accessible party game.

And yet, Sakurai's thesis seems to be that "accessibility = shallow gameplay".
 
Splatoon character might be cool if the game ends up having a story and recognizable characters, instead of just being an arena shooter.

Even without all that it still might be a cool addition to the roster, but I'd rather see other mascots with projectiles first.
 
Berordn said:
Splatoon character might be cool if the game ends up having a story and recognizable characters, instead of just being an arena shooter.

Even without it still might be cool, but I'd rather see other mascots with projectiles first.
Click to expand...

Think about the alts possibilities.
 
JStein0222 said:
Maybe DLC? Doubtful because there doesn't seem to be an icon character for the series and the game will come out after smash does,
Click to expand...
It seems like representing a game is sometimes as important as representing a specific character (see Mr. G&W, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, and a few others). Splatoon is certainly a fresh enough concept to warrant a character in Smash Bros. -- a lot can be done with the ink and squid form, and we haven't even seen all of the game's weapons/abilities yet.

I'd love for an Inkling to be DLC. Splatoon is the first EAD-developed IP since Pikmin that jumps out to me as having an immediately applicable Smash Bros. fighter.
 
Ryce said:
It seems like representing a game is sometimes as important as representing a specific character (see Mr. G&W, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, and a few others). Splatoon is certainly a fresh enough concept to warrant a character in Smash Bros. -- a lot can be done with the ink and squid form, and we haven't even seen all of the game's weapons/abilities yet.

I'd love for an Inkling to be DLC. Splatoon is the first EAD-developed IP since Pikmin that jumps out to me as having an immediately applicable Smash Bros. fighter.
Click to expand...

That makes sense, he would probably be a fun fighter - I see what ya'll are saying. I'm personally on the side of things that would prefer the dev team maybe work on characters people have been going ape for a long time for first but don't get me wrong any character addition is a good addition...almost all the time
 
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