Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 8: Put mii in, coach
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
NeonZ
Member
The increased land lag likely is to incentive people to actually use the ground attacks. It often seems like short hop + aerial was a more common offensive than the actual land based attacks, and that obviously doesn't make sense from a game design standpoint. It's the same reason they likely removed wavedash from Brawl. It doesn't make sense to have a superior mobile option to the standard one without any drawbacks, especially in something like Smash, where the characters sliding around was just a result of the fighting engine, rather than actually helping the whole "Nintendo All Stars" theme.
Even if they end up including alternate costumes based on other characters, Viridi can't be a costume due to very different size and proportions. She'd need different proprieties too, not just a different model.
He'll be a fairly boring newcomer though if he just has different sword slashes compared to Ike and Marth... Come on, Fire Emblem is a strategy game too, not just RPG. Why can't elements of the first part be incorporated into a character?
Even if they end up including alternate costumes based on other characters, Viridi can't be a costume due to very different size and proportions. She'd need different proprieties too, not just a different model.
He'll be a fairly boring newcomer though if he just has different sword slashes compared to Ike and Marth... Come on, Fire Emblem is a strategy game too, not just RPG. Why can't elements of the first part be incorporated into a character?
There wasn't really a meltdown. A few people from #TeamReal celebrated prematurely because they forgot the terms but they were quickly corrected. There was a bit of back and forth and then people really just forgot about it. Should note that I haven't seen a comment from the main instigator.
Why is it so bad to have aerial attacks have a drawback on landing, anyway? Air attacks have been pretty dominant in Smash, maybe it's time to have ground approaches have its day in Smash 4?
I'll admit I don't play Smash on anything near a competitive level, but good basic ground mobility seems to be undervalued or underpowered in Smash Bros. When Sonic, despite being the absolute quickest runner in the game, lacks mobility, something is really off. Making air approaches more risky, and ground approaches more solid seems like the obvious place to adjust for any new Smash Bros to me.
I'll admit I don't play Smash on anything near a competitive level, but good basic ground mobility seems to be undervalued or underpowered in Smash Bros. When Sonic, despite being the absolute quickest runner in the game, lacks mobility, something is really off. Making air approaches more risky, and ground approaches more solid seems like the obvious place to adjust for any new Smash Bros to me.
The Great Gonzales
Member
That's true. Do you think that Smash 4 is going to so overwhelmingly favor defensive play that tournaments just devolve into campfests? (I haven't played the game myself, so I couldn't make a judgment here.)
Geminosity
Member
Oh? All this talk of being cheap is... interesting.
If I find a way of playing that works and I enjoy, then I'll do it until either I stop enjoying it or it stops working. It's not cheap, it's just playing the game
Sirlin has uh... slightly more 'harsh' views on this: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
As always, I honestly think Sirlin knows his stuff when it comes to design and gameplay, but it's just unfortunate that he's also a complete jerk and will phrase things in a way that aren't always conductive.
To encompass the point in a less derogatory way: There are two types of people. Those who solve problems and those who give up. Generally, you'll excel and be a lot more if you try to solve the puzzles a game presents you with. People who constantly call things 'cheap', 'unfair' or make up arbitrary rules to cover for their shortcomings generally handicap both themselves and the game from reaching its true potential :/
I won't dismiss that sometimes games aren't well balanced or have flaws... but you don't have to keep playing those games if you don't like what they do
If I find a way of playing that works and I enjoy, then I'll do it until either I stop enjoying it or it stops working. It's not cheap, it's just playing the game
Sirlin has uh... slightly more 'harsh' views on this: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
As always, I honestly think Sirlin knows his stuff when it comes to design and gameplay, but it's just unfortunate that he's also a complete jerk and will phrase things in a way that aren't always conductive.
To encompass the point in a less derogatory way: There are two types of people. Those who solve problems and those who give up. Generally, you'll excel and be a lot more if you try to solve the puzzles a game presents you with. People who constantly call things 'cheap', 'unfair' or make up arbitrary rules to cover for their shortcomings generally handicap both themselves and the game from reaching its true potential :/
I won't dismiss that sometimes games aren't well balanced or have flaws... but you don't have to keep playing those games if you don't like what they do
Because smash bros. is a platform fighter that has a lot of it's metagame based around being in the air or off the stage? It's what sets it apart from other fighters.
Good ground mobility was in Melee anyway, sonic was bad in brawl because brawl's engine stifled mobility.
It's completely possible that it could evolve like that, but that's why you've got so many competitive players and just people trying it out in general telling the nintendo reps to just add those few tweaks that we want.
Smash 4 is on the cusp of possibly being the best game so far, which is why we're currently so vocal about it considering it hasn't released yet. It would be heart breaking for them to not take on board at least some of these changes and leave us playing melee/P:M for another god knows how many years.
TheSlySoul
Member
Oh? All this talk of being cheap is... interesting.
If I find a way of playing that works and I enjoy, then I'll do it until either I stop enjoying it or it stops working. It's not cheap, it's just playing the game
Sirlin has uh... slightly more 'harsh' views on this: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
As always, I honestly think Sirlin knows his stuff when it comes to design and gameplay, but it's just unfortunate that he's also a complete jerk and will phrase things in a way that aren't always conductive.
To encompass the point in a less derogatory way: There are two types of people. Those who solve problems and those who give up. Generally, you'll excel and be a lot more if you try to solve the puzzles a game presents you with. People who constantly call things 'cheap', 'unfair' or make up arbitrary rules to cover for their shortcomings generally handicap both themselves and the game from reaching its true potential :/
I won't dismiss that sometimes games aren't well balanced or have flaws... but you don't have to keep playing those games if you don't like what they do
Well put. I agree completely. As much as dislike certain exploits in competitive games and usually choose to avoid using them, I can't deny that they shouldn't be looked down upon just because they seem "lame" or "cheap". If they help you win, then it's smart to use them. Simple as that.
Too many people here complaining about Zero being lame in the Smash tournament and stealing the win from Hungrybox. He didn't steal anything. He played a smart game and won because of it.
Oh? All this talk of being cheap is... interesting.
If I find a way of playing that works and I enjoy, then I'll do it until either I stop enjoying it or it stops working. It's not cheap, it's just playing the game
Sirlin has uh... slightly more 'harsh' views on this: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
As always, I honestly think Sirlin knows his stuff when it comes to design and gameplay, but it's just unfortunate that he's also a complete jerk and will phrase things in a way that aren't always conductive.
To encompass the point in a less derogatory way: There are two types of people. Those who solve problems and those who give up. Generally, you'll excel and be a lot more if you try to solve the puzzles a game presents you with. People who constantly call things 'cheap', 'unfair' or make up arbitrary rules to cover for their shortcomings generally handicap both themselves and the game from reaching its true potential :/
I won't dismiss that sometimes games aren't well balanced or have flaws... but you don't have to keep playing those games if you don't like what they do
You're not really understanding the complaints, the guy who made that smashboards post and the guy that made this is talking about people who are scrubs, people who say that other players didn't truly win because they used an effective but cheap tactic.
People complaining about current smash are complaining because they don't want the most effective tactic to be downright boring to watch, I don't want competitive smash to be filled with "play only to win even if it's boring as fuck" players, I want it to be an exciting game that gets everybody interested in it, where people do things that you weren't even aware were possible with that character, I want people watching and cheering for it at EVO and MLG and APEX and whatever else happens in the future.
What I don't want is one guy stalling around platforms because he has a stock lead until the timer runs out because the game gives more advantages to a player who plays defensively.
And the problem with "just play something else" mentality is that there's no other game like it out there, why would you NOT want it to be as good a game as it can possibly be?
Alright see this brings up a problem I have with a ton of brawl complaints and it's great that you bring up this notion for Smash 4. There's nothing wrong with encouraging a more grounded battle, the problem is this isn't what these changes do. Melee and Brawl had just as good ground approaches--hell they had better ground approaches than what Smash 4 seems to have. Because ground approaches have not been buffed, it's just that aerial approaches were nerfed. So rather than encourage more ground approaches by introducing new mechanics or buffing old ones, Smash 4 has instead taken the nerf hammer to everything aerial. In my opinion, this is a really boring way of balancing or influencing how you want your game to be played that really slows the pace of the game and kills a lot of options every character can enjoy. And it's especially weird to see happen in a game like smash bros which can get so chaotic when playing in FFA with items, with assist trophies and pokemon getting in the mix.v
videogames are crazy yadda yadda yadda nobody knows
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
That's okay. I guess that "Meta-Game" is pretty much wrong word for me to use. That's one of reason why I always stay out of competitive discussion because I can't really worded it correctly on texts but if I signed it out then it would make sense in sign language but in text, it was pretty hard for me to put it together. That's why I always stayed quiet at Marve Vs. Capcom 3 and Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3 Threads because I suck at that kind of discussion but I truly understand what they meant and they have a lot of passion which I'm proud to be part of community. I always enjoy to reading or watching people talking about competitive games and tournaments. It's always fun for me to do that.
I know plenty of competitive terms & discussions and I always enjoying to watch tournaments (mostly melee and project melee). When it come down to discussion which I'm required to typing; I can't help but expressed my opinions and discussions poorly. I want to emphasized my stand with competitive side because I love to play competitive Smash, since I always getting involved with Melee, Brawl and Project M Tournaments.
I want to point it out that I have a feeling that bounce-kill is one of few reasons why Sakurai are balancing the aerial gameplay around. Taking high risks with being precise with aerial attacks would get high reward but I'm aware that many competitive players wouldn't dare to take that risk tho.
Again, I'm pretty sure that I haven't saying anything positive or negative about any changes in Smash 4 (in this thread or any forum) due to a sole reason is that the games are still in development. I don't want to jump into conclusion but I just want to share my opinion about bounce kill because I'm intrigued by that change.
I truly understand that people want to take actions because they love the franchise itself. Complaining about it on the forum isn't exactly helpful. People need to get it together and present their concerns and reasons to the company (Nintendo, Nintendo of America and Sakurai). They need to make sure that they would present their concerns right now before it's too late. However you have to make sure that you know what you are talking about and present it to them nice and kindly. If you're going to be rude about it then they wouldn't dare to listen to you. I know it is more likely to be hopeless but it wouldn't hurt them if they are going to try. Start with Twitter, E-Mail and Mails, and see what they would see. Someone said that people are following and reading what people had to says.
Like Progs and everyone said, it's still in development.
Just hope for the best, is all what I could say about Smash 4 itself. I'm going to play Smash 4 nevertheless; and more likely to enjoy the game.
I'm sorry if I have shitty english. I hope that it's clear enough for everyone to read. I apologized if I somehow kill your braincells.
great to see one of my own gifs stolen! Feelgoodman. (villager grabbing blue shell gif)
I'm wondering why Smash has become so air focused. And if, for Smash 4, it has to stay air focused. Little Mac in particular stands out. He's awful in the air, but he's amazing on the ground. In any previous Smash, this would mean he'd be doomed. But since he exists like this, deliberately, makes me wonder if they're trying to make the game more grounded than the previous ones.
It's also worth mentioning that a defensive game always puts the advantage on the person with the current lead.
When the person at a disadvantage is penalised for trying to mount an offence you get less of these crazy tense matches where a player can bring the game back.
I'll keep saying it, if it keeps going the way it is, it's just not going to be as exciting as it could be, yes it will be played competitively, but I don't feel it will be a good competitive game and it definitely won't be the massive resurgence of smash as the brilliant competitive game that it can be.
When the person at a disadvantage is penalised for trying to mount an offence you get less of these crazy tense matches where a player can bring the game back.
I'll keep saying it, if it keeps going the way it is, it's just not going to be as exciting as it could be, yes it will be played competitively, but I don't feel it will be a good competitive game and it definitely won't be the massive resurgence of smash as the brilliant competitive game that it can be.
The Great Gonzales
Member
Oh? All this talk of being cheap is... interesting.
If I find a way of playing that works and I enjoy, then I'll do it until either I stop enjoying it or it stops working. It's not cheap, it's just playing the game
Sirlin has uh... slightly more 'harsh' views on this: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
As always, I honestly think Sirlin knows his stuff when it comes to design and gameplay, but it's just unfortunate that he's also a complete jerk and will phrase things in a way that aren't always conductive.
To encompass the point in a less derogatory way: There are two types of people. Those who solve problems and those who give up. Generally, you'll excel and be a lot more if you try to solve the puzzles a game presents you with. People who constantly call things 'cheap', 'unfair' or make up arbitrary rules to cover for their shortcomings generally handicap both themselves and the game from reaching its true potential :/
I won't dismiss that sometimes games aren't well balanced or have flaws... but you don't have to keep playing those games if you don't like what they do
A crude dichotomy, I think. There's a difference between crying "cheap!" whenever you lose (that's called being a sore loser,) and expecting some degree of good sportsmanship from your opponent. To be so single-mindedly obsessed with winning is to miss the point. Aren't games/sports supposed to be enjoyable for everyone involved? If the loser doesn't have fun, too, then something has gone wrong. We usually call tactics "cheap" and "unfair" because when you use them, they deny your opponent a fair chance at winning, and it's no fun when you have no chance to win. Thus it's not very sporting. Camping/stalling is the perfect example: if you can just run away forever, then there's nothing your opponent can do.
He misunderstood the point. The Invitational was a fun little tournament to show off the game. Stalling like that didn't put on a good show. Zero took it too seriously; he missed the point of the Invitational.
GiantBreadbug
Member
But winning at a videogame is important
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Day 1 - Played as Greninja and Lil Mac
Day 2 - Played as Megaman and Kid Icarus
#Swagtastic Day 2
Day 2 - Played as Megaman and Kid Icarus
#Swagtastic Day 2
Geminosity
Member
I understand where you're coming from but the issue is that you're misunderstanding me. I already said in my previous post about this that the things Revven asked for (which I believe were in line with what you wanted) didn't seem unwarranted and that feedback during the formative stages of a game like this are a good thing. If there's a playstyle or outcome you don't like, now is the time to ask for those changes, as you well know.
My comments on 'cheap' or the like and 'go play something else' apply to games that are already finished. That said, the only way to find horrific exploits and whatnot is to play these games hard. Play them to win. It's only by being as scummy as possible you can identify these issues while the game is still forming and they can still be changed. It's a balance of pointing out what you'd like but playing to win so you can find any weaknesses in the design that pull it away from your desired direction.
Basically put, playing to win is still the best route
One other thing I feel like mentioning after seeing you get quite passionate about this stuff though is... not everyone likes the same things. Just keep in mind what you like might not be what others are necessarily pulling for
Chaotic-Strike
Banned
Loving the changes I've seen on Yoshi in the 3ds version. He looks a lot faster and can jump out of shield now. I just wish they would replace the egg roll with something different or at least upgrade it to something useful.
Smash has become so air focus because of the exact reason you quoted, it's a platform fighter based around being mostly in the air.
And yes, it should stay air focused, otherwise what's the point of having so many varied stages with different layouts instead of just final destination.
You can have a focus on both though without globally nerfing aerials, look to P:M Bowser for a ground based character who still has good aerials for finishers and ledge guarding.
And I'm going to say that even if he's awesome on the ground, little mac is going to be a terrible character in 1v1 because there's fewer ground-based movement options in the current iteration.
Did Sakurai once comment that Peach's move were subject to change or something like that? Perhaps despite her early reveal she is still being worked on significantly.
Oh come on, I bet everyone wanted to win that tournament. Yeah I know they didn't take it as seriously as a real tournament, but if you make it to the finals of the first Nintendo sponsored Smash Bros. tournament and you have a chance to win a trophy out of it, why wouldn't you play to win?
Are we seriously going to look down on the guy for trying his best to win a special tournament like that and a trophy alongside it? Just because he used tactics that people consider "lame"? That's messed up.
JB-the-Hunter
Member
How did he not put on a good show? He brought the finale down to Sudden Death, which is pretty much the equivalent of Overtime in sports. Besides, if you read his posts on Reddit, winning the invitational has opened up a lot of opportunities for him.
Geminosity
Member
Again, some people solve puzzles, some give up: Is there REALLY nothing your opponent can do?
I've seen this way too many times in fighting games where people who aren't necessarily sore losers go "there was nothing I could do!" and with just a few seconds I can show them that not only was there something they could do but often MULTIPLE things they could have done. It's too easy to just go "impossible!" in a fit of emotions, but if you want to really plumb the depths of a game and often reach an insane new layer you didn't even know previously existed, you're better off cooling your head and asking yourself genuinely "how can I approach this?" From there, you experiment and you find out the answer. You even try to use the offending tactic yourself to get a better understanding of it.
Unless... y'know... you're playing rise of the robots and you're player one. In that case, nobody is beating your jumping kick and they might as well put the pad down
victreeb3l
Member
Went to Nintendo World earlier today and played some smash. Man i completely forgot how to play and got my ass kicked. But it was great fun. Little mac is pretty beast. Also never realized how tall rosalina was.
I understand where you're coming from but the issue is that you're misunderstanding me. I already said in my previous post about this that the things Revven asked for (which I believe were in line with what you wanted) didn't seem unwarranted and that feedback during the formative stages of a game like this are a good thing. If there's a playstyle or outcome you don't like, now is the time to ask for those changes, as you well know.
My comments on 'cheap' or the like and 'go play something else' apply to games that are already finished. That said, the only way to find horrific exploits and whatnot is to play these games hard. Play them to win. It's only by being as scummy as possible you can identify these issues while the game is still forming and they can still be changed. It's a balance of pointing out what you'd like but playing to win so you can find any weaknesses in the design that pull it away from your desired direction.
Basically put, playing to win is still the best route
One other thing I feel like mentioning after seeing you get quite passionate about this stuff though is... not everyone likes the same things. Just keep in mind what you like might not be what others are necessarily pulling for
I guess I don't understand what your point is at all then, the game isn't released and people are making comments to try and get it changed to something better.
A game that balances offensive and defensive styles is objectively better as a spectator sport.
People will always play to win, that will always be the best route.
But I'd rather that route be filled with skill where the game allows the road to completely change direction at any time if the players play their cards right rather than just being a straight line where the person who is already in the lead has the advantage because defensive play is heavily favoured.
Not everyone likes the same things but you can have a balance, I can guarantee a lot of competitive people who prefer the slow, stalling type of gameplay only prefer it because it makes it easier to win and has a lower skill cap, I don't think that should be encouraged in competitive smash.
SkullHydra
Member
Agreed.
I see so many people mentioning that Zero was 'cheap' in that final round, while ignoring the fact that HungryBox seriously camped the previous two stages as well. It was the first Smash Bros tourney for a game that isn't even going to be release for several months. Of course people are going to want to win.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
It's unscientific for sure, but the running theme I keep seeing posted and from what I saw both days I went to Smash Fest is that Lil Mac is beastly (I won't say OP yet).
BassForever
Member
Defense wins championships in every sport and it seems that smash is no different
User Name Here
Member
I like what they did with the Mii fighters. I hope we'll see more move sets for them later via DLC.
Choppasmith
Member
Just curious, I was watching the Gamespot vids, and noticed people talking about the announcer, is it confirmed that it's the same as Brawl's? Sounds different to me.
I can´t find direct feed videos to hear a little bit of the soundtrack, any help GAF on this?
I only could find the gameexplain megaman one.
Also, while I do like to read every opinion, people are overreacting at this it's a demo so I hope they do change some stuff before the final release.
I only could find the gameexplain megaman one.
Also, while I do like to read every opinion, people are overreacting at this it's a demo so I hope they do change some stuff before the final release.
Those pins mannnnnn.
Again, some people solve puzzles, some give up: Is there REALLY nothing your opponent can do?
I've seen this way too many times in fighting games where people who aren't necessarily sore losers go "there was nothing I could do!" and with just a few seconds I can show them that not only was there something they could do but often MULTIPLE things they could have done. It's too easy to just go "impossible!" in a fit of emotions, but if you want to really plumb the depths of a game and often reach an insane new layer you didn't even know previously existed, you're better off cooling your head and asking yourself genuinely "how can I approach this?" From there, you experiment and you find out the answer. You even try to use the offending tactic yourself to get a better understanding of it.
In a defensive game where you don't have movement options to get around and your offense options are slow and easily punishable then there is very little you can do once a person gets a lead.
It's not a case of "oh, maybe I should have done this instead" when there aren't any safe approaches, there's no shield stun or anything and rolls and air dodges are spammable so it's not as if the player can apply shield pressure or chase the other person down.
It just becomes high risk, low reward for the offensive player instead of high risk, high reward and low risk, high reward for the winning player.
It's alright to start saying this stuff when the game is released and we can't do anything about trying to make it a better competitive game, but I don't see why people keep trying to put the criticisms down at the moment or saying that people who just want the game to have more depth are scrubs who can't take losing.
Geminosity
Member
I don't know if it really has a lower skill cap rather than simply requiring a different skillset, but that's neither here nor there. My 'cheap' point wasn't related to your requests but more a response to your distaste for Overswarm's play style / mindset. It's better to stick to saying you don't like his playstyle and believe it isn't the best outcome for spectators than to go on to label the playstyle with derogatory terms
Nutshell version: I'm not really disagreeing with what you're after. I just felt like wading in on the 'cheap' thing and I actually enjoyed watching the finals :3
theprodigy
Member
Me personally, I have a distaste for Overswarm as a person, that guy was an asshole from what I remember of his posts there.
Geminosity
Member
To be honest I could claim much of the same about Sirlin, but it doesn't change the fact that I can't fault his knack for design when it comes to competitive games. He knows his stuff
Does Overswarm know their stuff? I have no idea, I know literally nothing about this person, but they claim PPMD learned Falco from their tutorial vids so if that holds any truth I'd guess they must have at least some know-how :3
To be honest I could claim much of the same about Sirlin, but it doesn't change the fact that I can't fault his knack for design when it comes to competitive games. He knows his stuff
Does Overswarm know their stuff? I have no idea, I know literally nothing about this person, but they claim PPMD learned Falco from their tutorial vids so if that holds any truth I'd guess they must have at least some know-how :3
He mentions preferring brawl because he lacked the technical skill to be good at melee so I find that hard to believe.
Beelzebufo
Banned
The fact that he managed to be a well-known player despite having little technical skill shows that he knows a lot about strategy. You can take what he says seriously.
theprodigy
Member
"well-known player" just like EMP is a "development organization" or whatever they call it these days
this is because he posts fucking everywhere, I can't even find any recent results for him from a tournament
Beelzebufo
Banned
I've only been to SmashBoards a few times, and even I've heard of Overswarm lol
Geminosity
Member
I don't do particularly well in streetfighter 4 because executing the basic moves is a wild uncertainty for me. But I won the Nidhogg tournament we held in our fighting group cleanly and I was able to easily play Soul Calibur to tournament level. Both those games are light on execution, heavy on mindgames/strategy.
For some players, execution is the arbitrary and thoroughly unenjoyable obstacle barring the way to the 'real' game ;D
I don't play Project M. PAL Wii here. I don't support region locking, especially not in fan mods. I did want to try it, but it wouldn't run, so I never went back.
I mean there are two kinds of air combat in play in Smash. Air-to-air and air-to-ground. Would it bad if some characters had a distinct advantage in being grounded against air attacks? Like no one jumps a crouching Guile in Street Fighter unless they're darn sure they can avoid getting Flash Kicked. Jumping is a commitment, and rightfully so. He might not get much off a single Flash Kick, but you learn that the air above Guile? That's his. No touching.
If I was balancing a game like this, I wouldn't make aerials lag like this, I'd make airborne characters fly longer when hit with a knockback attack. High risk, high reward. But clearly air-power is powerful in any iteration of Smash. Maybe too powerful. And unless some characters get hard counters against air attacks, well, a global nerf seems likely.
I'd love a grounded character that basically can't be air attacked if you're on point, though.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
I will say this. On his own stage with his up smash Lil Mac a tad OP.
Also feel like he'll be super strong on final destination versions as he won't have to use his weak air game.
Seems like whenever people at my best buy picked him they did really well!
Also feel like he'll be super strong on final destination versions as he won't have to use his weak air game.
Seems like whenever people at my best buy picked him they did really well!
It might be the same person (they certainly sound similar), but it's definitely different voice clips.