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[SliceSabre]

Well that's why I'm asking since every video I've seen has been one or one but I don't want to make assumptions.

But I still can't get over how terrible most people in the Invitational were with items.

They never use them and it shows.

I watch videos of these competitive scene people demoing the game and the Invitational and I'm just thinking: "How can a person who considers themselves among the best at this game be so terrible with items?"

 

[Golnei]

Well, items and a version of the game they can't have been using for more than a few hours.

 

[Poltergust]

They never use them and it shows.

I watch videos of these competitive scene people demoing the game and the Invitational and I'm just thinking: "How can a person who considers themselves among the best at this game be so terrible with items?"

Items are still prevalent in competitive play (turnips, bananas, grenades, etc.), just usually not those kinds of items. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Melee players had no idea what the most of Brawl items did, too. Oh, and there's the fact that item handling is different in Smash 4 than it is in both Melee and Brawl (no glide tossing, for example).

 

[Zevenberge]

They never use them and it shows.

I watch videos of these competitive scene people demoing the game and the Invitational and I'm just thinking: "How can a person who considers themselves among the best at this game be so terrible with items?"

I'm getting the feeling that those "pros" are just people who use the exploits of the game like there's no tomorrow and not people who are legitimately good at the game. Which is why they don't like Brawl or Smash 4 - they cannot use their exploits in it.

 

[Poltergust]

I'm getting the feeling that those "pros" are just people who use the exploits of the game like there's no tomorrow and not people who are legitimately good at the game. Which is why they don't like Brawl or Smash 4 - they cannot use their exploits in it.

You do realize that there were a few Brawl "pros" in the Invitational, right?

Furthermore, more than half of the people there would 4-stock/3-stock you (and me) in their respective games, regardless of what the rules would be. Don't underestimate them simply because they were playing poorly in a game they had literally hours to play beforehand.

 

[BGBW]

Well, items and a version of the game they can't have been using for more than a few hours.

One guy was ignoring the bumper. How to use bumper:
1. Pick up bumper.
2. Throw bumper at foe.
3. Laugh at their dismay.

Items are still prevalent in competitive play (turnips, bananas, grenades, etc.), just usually not those kinds of items. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Melee players had no idea what the most of Brawl items did, too. Oh, and there's the fact that item handling is different in Smash 4 than it is in both Melee and Brawl (no glide tossing, for example).

I consider those moves not items. Items are the things you can turn off in the item menu. I'm not even considering advanced item tactics like catching them midair and what not. I'm literally talking about people not even knowing the basics like how to pick one up.

 

[Velcro Fly]

I can't wait to play for fun mode and have fun with items. Part of the fun of Smash for me is kicking back and laughing at all the crazy stuff that happens and items/stages are a big part of that.

 

[SliceSabre]

One guy was ignoring the bumper. How to use bumper:
1. Pick up bumper.
2. Throw bumper at foe.
3. Laugh at their dismay.

Or even better what I saw a lot of:

1. Person trying to recover.
2. Person on ground holding an item in their hand.
3. They do not throw it at the person recovering.


No excuses in that. That is Smash class 101 right there.

 

[Poltergust]

I consider those moves not items. Items are the things you can turn off in the item menu. I'm not even considering advanced item tactics like catching them midair and what not. I'm literally talking about people not even knowing the basics like how to pick one up.

They are still items, though. They handle exactly like all the other thrown items.

Incidentally, the mechanics for picking a lone item up is different between Melee (which most of the players in the Invitational played) and Brawl. In addition to there being no characters in Melee that can actually drop an item on the floor for people to pick up, there is also the fact that Brawl introduced new ways to interact with them, such as dash-attacking to pick them up.

I'm actually curious to see how Zero did with items compared to the people he played against. I can't imagine Smash 4 being too different from Brawl in that regard, and as a pro player he must have a lot of Snake/Diddy match-up experience, where item handling/avoidance is crucial.

 

[BGBW]

They are still items, though. They handle exactly like all the other thrown items.

Yes, but when we say playing with items we mean using the items from the item menu. Not allow people to play as Diddy Kong.

 

[Boss Doggie]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthre...#post110045869

Wait, is Ridley in some sort of Sakurai's Inferno?

 

[Poltergust]

Yes, but when we say playing with items we mean using the items from the item menu. Not allow people to play as Diddy Kong.

Well, what did you expect? Tournament players rarely play with items on. =P

 

[NotLiquid]

Isn't one of the main reasons items are looked down upon as a competitive aspect because of them actually trying to allow it once the year Brawl was at EVO and the Grand Finals being a complete washout? The winner was a complete unknown, he wasn't a necessarily great player and he managed to beat Ken almost entirely thanks to items.

I remember the community backlash the guy got for the win. Poor guy was only 14 at the time and it was his first competitive appearance.

 

[JoeInky]

Isn't one of the main reasons items are looked down upon as a competitive aspect because of them actually trying to allow it once the year Brawl was at EVO and the Grand Finals being a complete washout? The winner was a complete unknown, he wasn't a necessarily great player and he managed to beat Ken almost entirely thanks to items.

I remember the community backlash the guy got for the win. Poor guy was only 14 at the time and it was his first competitive appearance.

Items were orignally banned because of a famous incident where someone lost in a melee grandfinals due to a capsule explosion as far as I remember.

Since then people almost never play with items on and if they do then it gets barely any entrants.

 

[RagnarokX]

Wait, is Ridley in some sort of Sakurai's Inferno?

Well, in the last gif he reacted to 3 characters getting revealed where he scowled so hard that he collapsed into himself and warped across dimensions.

 

[FSLink]

Well, items and a version of the game they can't have been using for more than a few hours.

That and some people just don't care to learn them. Much like Mortal Kombat fatalities. I still have a good time laughing at people booing that one guy at EVO who didn't know how to do them.
But don't generalize competitive players guys. A lot of them could still win the majority of the time with items on despite the random factor.

Items were orignally banned because of a famous incident where someone lost in a melee grandfinals due to a capsule explosion as far as I remember.

Since then people almost never play with items on and if they do then it gets barely any entrants.

Not sure if this actually was the cause but it's a factor. Also the fact that item spawn heavily favors faster characters too since they can well...get to the item faster. Bowser and company have it rough enough, we don't need a competent Marth dashing across the stage to prevent you from getting a bat.

 

[TheChits]

I'm getting the feeling that those "pros" are just people who use the exploits of the game like there's no tomorrow and not people who are legitimately good at the game. Which is why they don't like Brawl or Smash 4 - they cannot use their exploits in it.

I can't decide if this is a serious post or not.

 

[Masked Man]

I can't get over how amazing the Gerudo Valley/PKMN X/Y Trainer Battle arrangements are.

I just heard that Gerudo Valley arrangement, and it's truly wonderful. I can't wait for HQ rips of this soundtrack!

I know someone posted this already in the old thread but:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn-MkUXyHMo

Into my veins, all of it.

Oh my GODDDDDDDDDDD. This is fantastic. <3

Alt costume:

This just proves why Chorus Men are going to be awesome in Smash 4.

 

[BGBW]

Though I'm kind of sad that if the leak is true it won't be the Space Dancers. I want to PA-PA-PA-PAUNCH someone.

 

[FSLink]

Though I'm kind of sad that if the leak is true it won't be the Space Dancers. I want to PA-PA-PA-PAUNCH someone.

I hope they're summon characters like how Pacman is with all the arcade references. That way we can get PA-PA-PA-PAUNCH to like side smash or something.

 

[BGBW]

I hope they're summon characters like how Pacman is with all the arcade references. That way we can get PA-PA-PA-PAUNCH to like side smash or something.

That's what I'm assuming they'd do because the Chorus Kids themselves don't really have any attacking moves. One also has to hope Rhythm Tengoku stuff isn't off limits because it was Japan only.

 

[Kouriozan]

Nice PotD, really interested to try those Mii Fighter.

 

[Axass]

Because they believe this game is going to be a hit man.

Holy shit, why did nobody quote you on this? I laughed.

 

[JediLink]

I'm getting the feeling that those "pros" are just people who use the exploits of the game like there's no tomorrow and not people who are legitimately good at the game. Which is why they don't like Brawl or Smash 4 - they cannot use their exploits in it.

I wish people would stop talking out their ass about shit like this.

 

[Moonlight]

I can't decide if this is a serious post or not.

I'm actually boggling over the whole idea of lording over item play as a reason that professional Smash players aren't good at the game they spend so much time playing.

 

[munchie64]

Well, in the last gif he reacted to 3 characters getting revealed where he scowled so hard that he collapsed into himself and warped across dimensions.

A canon is slowly forming.

 

[Crocodile]

I'm getting the feeling that those "pros" are just people who use the exploits of the game like there's no tomorrow and not people who are legitimately good at the game. Which is why they don't like Brawl or Smash 4 - they cannot use their exploits in it.

C'mon man, whatever it is you're doing here quit it :/

 

[User 73706]

Sword Fighter Miis!

Xena
Quorra
TRON
Flynn

Unlocking Mii costume pieces will be fun

I can't wait to recreate a TRON-like moveset and use Hank Hill's head.

 

[Jintor]

I can't wait to recreate a TRON-like moveset and use Hank Hill's head.

 

[Zevenberge]

I can't decide if this is a serious post or not.

I wish people would stop talking out their ass about shit like this.

C'mon man, whatever it is you're doing here quit it :/

Uhm... Sorry for the blasphemy I guess...

You do realize that there were a few Brawl "pros" in the Invitational, right?

Furthermore, more than half of the people there would 4-stock/3-stock you (and me) in their respective games, regardless of what the rules would be. Don't underestimate them simply because they were playing poorly in a game they had literally hours to play beforehand.

Oh, without a doubt. Still, it thicks me off that they can only do their thing and only their one thing. If one variable is off (items on/off, other gravity), some of them go nuts and rage. A one-trick horse isn't a genius, it is just well trained, which is what I meant with my previous comment.
Also, from what I've seen, read and heard my respect for the "top" Smash players has plummeted over the past week.

 

[JoeInky]

Uhm... Sorry for the blasphemy I guess...



Oh, without a doubt. Still, it thicks me off that they can only do their thing and only their one thing. If one variable is off (items on/off, other gravity), some of them go nuts and rage. A one-trick horse isn't a genius, it is just well trained, which is what I meant with my previous comment.
Also, from what I've seen, read and heard my respect for the "top" Smash players has plummeted over the past week.

If you play for several years without items ever being a factor then I could see why people completely forget about them in a brand new game.

Most of the pro players were going for offensive strategies, trying to do stuff that works in melee but doesn't in a game that revoles around defense, the rest went for campy keep-away styles.

Zer0 is pretty much the only person who went for items because he plays brawl and he also plays to win, regardless of how boring or "lame" it is to watch.


Also protip, people on smashboards aren't the "top" smash players (and neither is PeachyHime if that's what you were referring to, if the invitational only had top players then she wouldn't even be there along with half of the other people invited).

 

[Anura]

Uhm... Sorry for the blasphemy I guess...



Oh, without a doubt. Still, it thicks me off that they can only do their thing and only their one thing. If one variable is off (items on/off, other gravity), some of them go nuts and rage. A one-trick horse isn't a genius, it is just well trained, which is what I meant with my previous comment.
Also, from what I've seen, read and heard my respect for the "top" Smash players has plummeted over the past week.

Items are literally an equalizer and being "good" with items isn't really a thing people should want IMO. And when saying "gravity" are you refering to the landing lag stuff? Because I can assure you people aren't just complaining because it's different (in fact smash 4 seems VERY similar to brawl in that regard)

It seems like you're just nitpicking for the saje of it with this item thing... Like seriously if you play that long without them you tend to forget about them

And nobody is a "genius" in any fighting game. They get good because they practice and enjoy playing it

 

[Zevenberge]

If you play for several years without items ever being a factor then I could see why people completely forget about them in a brand new game.

Most of the pro players were going for offensive strategies, trying to do stuff that works in melee but doesn't in a game that revoles around defense, the rest went for campy keep-away styles.

Zer0 is pretty much the only person who went for items because he plays brawl and he also plays to win, regardless of how boring or "lame" it is to watch.


Also protip, people on smashboards aren't the "top" smash players (and neither is PeachyHime if that's what you were referring to, if the invitational only had top players then she wouldn't even be there along with half of the other people invited).

I don't really get how you could forget something like that. And I probably don't want to get it either. I mean, don't they go outside, make friends, and use those friends to play some Smash with items on? You know, just for fun. Or just mess around and change the settings a bit?

And yes, I was referring to Smashboards and Peachy.

Items are literally an equalizer and being "good" with items isn't really a thing people should want IMO. And when saying "gravity" are you refering to the landing lag stuff? Because I can assure you people aren't just complaining because it's different (in fact smash 4 seems VERY similar to brawl in that regard)

It seems like you're just nitpicking for the sale if it with this item thing

No, I'm complaining that they apparently are only good with one specific set-up. If something changes, then they are lost. Part of being good is being flexible. At least, that is my definition. I believe I'm in disagreement with SmashGAF though

 

[Anura]

I don't really get how you could forget something like that. And I probably don't want to get it either. I mean, don't they go outside, make friends, and use those friends to play some Smash with items on? You know, just for fun. Or just mess around and change the settings a bit?

And yes, I was referring to Smashboards and Peachy.

Seriously man? The "Make some friends" stuff? Has it ever dawned on you that some people don't like items? I know I sure as heck don't...

 

[JoeInky]

I don't really get how you could forget something like that. And I probably don't want to get it either. I mean, don't they go outside, make friends, and use those friends to play some Smash with items on? You know, just for fun. Or just mess around and change the settings a bit?

People in these circles generally have friends who also like to play competitively, I haven't played with items on since around the release of brawl because all of my friends hate items and want to play the game somewhat seriously.

Even my casual friends see us playing without items and then when they play with us they want to try to be at the same skill level rather than have a perceived random handicap.

I can guarantee if I'd just been dropped into a new game with different mechanics to what I know and items on I'd be focusing more on what I know than trying to go after things that have been a non-factor for most of my life.

Hell, I'd probably be grabbing items and throwing them off the stage just so they're even less of a factor.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I wish you could play with only items. no characters.

 

[Zevenberge]

Seriously man? The "Make some friends" stuff? Has it ever dawned on you that some people don't like items? I know I sure as heck don't...

I wasn't totally serious with that remark. But still, when I play Smash with friends, whether it's with person A, with group B or with mates C (who have no connection to eachother whatsoever), we always just mess around with the settings to do something new and funny. I really cannot imagine that, if you invite friends 10 times, that none of those times the items are set to on.

(On a less serious note, I wonder how those "pros" experience item reveals in the POTD. Will they just spend hours looking at the screen wondering what its down-B is?)

 

[JoeInky]

I wish you could play with only items. no characters.

Smash 4 will have a new game mode called "spawn the items" where every button press spawns an item and the person who creates the most in 2 minutes wins.

(On a less serious note, I wonder how those "pros" experience item reveals in the POTD. Will they just spend hours looking at the screen wondering what its down-B is?)

"oh, it's just another item <close tab>"

 

[Moonlight]

You still need to be skilled in shit like reads and predictions if you want to get anywhere in Smash, and those are a far cry from practicing inputs. Those are skills that constantly demand split second decision making and high situational awareness and assessment. Pretty much every decent Smash player carries fundamentals like those from game to game.

And not being experienced with items doesn't somehow validate anyone (as I've been noticing) to claiming that people who play Smash competitively are secretly terrible at the game, or asserting yourselves as better skilled because of this (failing to recognize the irony in this kind of rhetoric).

 

[Anura]

I wasn't totally serious with that remark. But still, when I play Smash with friends, whether it's with person A, with group B or with mates C (who have no connection to eachother whatsoever), we always just mess around with the settings to do something new and funny. I really cannot imagine that, if you invite friends 10 times, that none of those times the items are set to on.

(On a less serious note, I wonder how those "pros" experience item reveals in the POTD. Will they just spend hours looking at the screen wondering what its down-B is?)

Why not? People enjoy the games they want to and not the way you think they should. And seriously if they wanted to they could get better with items. It isn't like that's actually very hard to do

 

[SparksterMeta0]

That's gotdang beautiful, I tell you what.

 

[JoeInky]

Why not? People enjoy the games they want to and not the way you think they should. And seriously if they wanted to they could get better with items. It isn't like that's actually very hard to do

You clearly don't know enough about the "should I throw the pokeball straight at the opponent or to the ground" metagame.

 

[OmegaSmash]

I seriously cant wait to see how competitive players go about using and debating the mii fighter, so many things I want to see

I feel that it might depend on how quickly you can set up custom moves. If you can set them right on the character select screen, I could see them (and Palutena) being allowed.

 

[JediLink]

(On a less serious note, I wonder how those "pros" experience item reveals in the POTD. Will they just spend hours looking at the screen wondering what its down-B is?)

 

[SliceSabre]

You still need to be skilled in shit like reads and predictions if you want to get anywhere in Smash, and those are a far cry from practicing inputs. Those are skills that constantly demand split second decision making and high situational awareness and assessment. Pretty much every decent Smash player carries fundamentals like those from game to game.

And not being experienced with items doesn't somehow validate anyone (as I've been noticing) to claiming that people who play Smash competitively are secretly terrible at the game, or asserting yourselves as better skilled because of this (failing to recognize the irony in this kind of rhetoric).

But the arguement can still be made that they are only good at Smash under a very specific rule set.

Personally I have more respect for the guy who wins a Smash tourny with items turned on and all stages playable than the guy who only can win under a very specific set of rules that totally remove certain aspects from the game.

 

[Anura]

You clearly don't know enough about the "should I throw the pokeball straight at the opponent or to the ground" metagame.

No I do. Even I've played with items enough to learn that. Not hard

 

[Next]

Is there any example from the tournament of people not using items right?

 

[Star Falcon]

Don't forgot that awesome video of Captain Falcon's Final Smash

This is awesome. Captain Falcon is such a hilarious character.

 

[JoeInky]

If custom moves are easily done at the characters select screen then mii's and palutena are fine, they have a default moveset anyway so it's not like they'd be banned from competitive play.

If people start asking to make their mii before a match then it might get a bit ridiculous though.

 

[Nocturnowl]

But I still can't get over how terrible most people in the Invitational were with items.

It was quite a difference watching the invitational's multi man item punch ups compared to Treehouse's own, beyond the slight bemusement at some items it's like there was a lacking of item based situational awareness in the invitational.
Actually I suppose that last point goes beyond items and into four player matches in general where you need to keep what everyone else is up to in mind and not just the one person in front of you.