Items are literally a randomized equalizer. You could certainly have tournaments like that (they did in the early melee days!) but it wouldn't be a test of skill for whoever won it
Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 9: F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5
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Items are literally a randomized equalizer. You could certainly have tournaments like that (they did in the early melee days!) but it wouldn't be a test of skill for whoever won it
Zevenberge
Member
It's just very hard to imagine. For me, items are one of the key gameplay elements of Smash (even though I very usually switch them off). It's not something you 'forget' they exist. But I think we should just agree to disagree. My definition of "good"/"skilled"/"top"/thingummywhut slightly differs with yours (or the common GAF definition, at that).
Items introduce too much randomness to the point that the winner is not necessarily the best. Imagine going toe to toe with another player just to have a bomb-omb spawning on your head, randomly deciding the winner.
A guy who can beat someone in 1v1 without items can undoubtedly beat some in 1v1 with items on an even playing field (which is completely impossible with items but eh).
You start playing melee with a fox main and go "oh I bet you can't beat me on a walkoff stage with items on because you aren't used to it huehuehue" and he's going to waveshine you out of the game every stock and the match will be over in 30 seconds.
You start throwing 4 player FFA, a completely different physics engine and metagame with randomised items into the mix and, yeah, people may not exactly be the best at it.
Sure we can agree to disagree on the skill. But before you go please try to realize some people don't have the same reasoning you do with items being fun or key to smash. I don't like items and I don't see how they are fun personally but I don't doubt that others do or can
Poltergust
Member
That's... a really odd position to take.
Incidentally, playing with all items and stages on is also a specific ruleset.
SliceSabre
Banned
So you're saying people who play with items on with all stages and win are not skilled in the game of Smash Bros?
Now that's an interesting position to take.
20 stock, items on, bonus matches. In theory the better player would overcome the randomness and still win.
Actually do we know if bonus matches have made a return (I doubt a single soul thought to ask)? Guess one would have to hunt down early Melee footage to see if they showed off the bonuses on the results screen.
Actually do we know if bonus matches have made a return (I doubt a single soul thought to ask)? Guess one would have to hunt down early Melee footage to see if they showed off the bonuses on the results screen.
Speedwagon
Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.
If there is someone who can consistently win with items on, then it's not random. You might think the numbers in PI are random, but they aren't.
People who play with items on in all stages can't consider it a fair test of skill, no.
No I'm saying items effect the test of skill by adding a game winning bit of randomness. Not sure how you got that from my post...
Poltergust
Member
It's more like you wouldn't be able to tell who's actually skilled or not with items on.
The items are random, but that has nothing to do with player skill. Items arent even a comeback mechanic as they are in Mario Kart
KittenMaster
Member
I didn't really pay attention to the items much in the invitational except:
- Final Smashes
- Seeing Arceus pop out of the Pokeball every single time
- Ken getting bad luck with being pinballed into an explosive item after a smash (at least I think that was what happened)
Besides that last example which is rooted in player involvement, a lot of super items in Smash Bros nowadays are things that do things without player input, and the only contribution from the player is that they are invulnerable while everyone else gets wrecked.
- Final Smashes
- Seeing Arceus pop out of the Pokeball every single time
- Ken getting bad luck with being pinballed into an explosive item after a smash (at least I think that was what happened)
Besides that last example which is rooted in player involvement, a lot of super items in Smash Bros nowadays are things that do things without player input, and the only contribution from the player is that they are invulnerable while everyone else gets wrecked.
Rule changes are not competitive player kryptonite. You aren't going to somehow overload a competitive player's brain by changing it from four stocks to five, or turning it into time attack mode. There is no argument to be made, some people are really good at Smash, some people aren't so much, items and stage hazards are the great equalizers between the two ends of the skill spectrum.
I find it amazing how we've gone from getting annoyed that certain players are better at the game (therefore justifying design choices introduced to limit the distance between skilled and more casual players) to claiming those players are actually bad, and need a really specific set of circumstances in order to succeed.
They are though. It favors the fast characters who can reach them in time and also have huge amounts of randomness in not only their spawn locations but also the effects themselves. It isn't going to cost you as much as Mario kart does but being on the receiving end of an item such as the golden hammer is going to put you at a serious disadvantage even if you dont get hit! Or pokeballs as they easily controll space. Or home run bat might spawn as someone is off stage giving them edge guarder a free projectile to throw
They do very much effect the test of skill
Zevenberge
Member
Like I said, I too turn off items very often. However, in the way they are present in solo mode or by how they are pushed forward by Sakurai, you cannot deny that Nintendo sees items as one of the basic gameplay element to Smash. Sure, a lot of competitive or slightly more serious players (which, I guess, includes me) don't like to play with items. But I just don't get how you can forget something that is pushed in your face. (Unless you never played Solo mode, but I'll just assume everyone played it at least once.)
So I'm not telling that everyone has to play with items on, I just cannot imagine that you never did or still - albeit rarely - do.
Do you know what you can't turn off individually, though? Capsules.
Do you know what has a chance of being a random explosive that can kill you if it happens to spawn at an unfavourable time? Capsules.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I guess it really does come down to for fun/for glory!
I very rarely do because they aren't fun for me... Why is that so shocking?
OmegaSmash
Member
But I thought that playing without items meant you're playing Smash in the wrong way!
You play the single modes a few times to unlock all the characters but once you have all that and you can actually enjoy the full multiplayer experience a lot of people will just stop playing the single player modes, I know I haven't touched them in years.
But I'll play For Glory for fun
B-b-but you can't have fun fighting someone without an uneven playing field!
Poltergust
Member
Like I said, people have tried hosting tournaments with items in mind for Brawl. Items were relegated to 3 statuses: allowed, counterpick, or banned. Bob-ombs were obviously banned.
However, it never caught on. In the competitive community, items have a really negative stigma attached to them due to lowering the impact of player skill (which is justified, of course).
I'm just saying that it has at least been attempted in the past. If items are to ever catch the attention of tournament-goers, it'll take a massive paradigm shift that is frankly not feasible. At best, it'll be a side tournament.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
You're not allowed!But I'll play For Glory for fun
balladofwindfishes
Member
I'm curious what Mii's defaults are, because that's what the CPUs are probably going to use, and what most people will associate with Mii's moveset.
Also not being able to use them online is yucky. Just give them blank faces if you must. Or nothing because Miis work fine in every other NINTENDO MADE online game like Mario Golf and Mario Kart. And Wii Sports Club, where the only playable characters are Miis...
Also not being able to use them online is yucky. Just give them blank faces if you must. Or nothing because Miis work fine in every other NINTENDO MADE online game like Mario Golf and Mario Kart. And Wii Sports Club, where the only playable characters are Miis...
Sorry yeah, I thought you were saying that items negate skill. I agree that with items on the better player will usually win
I don't think people would actually enter those kind of tournaments unless there was money involved though.
Maybe casual players might enter but nobody would be there playing it at a competitive level and at that point you may aswell just play with your friends because there's no spectacle about it anymore.
And even then if there is money on the line people would just get more pissed when they lose to random factors.
Well that's all part of the fun.
Anyone in the London area want to join me in making the Smash Super Happy Fun Time Item Fest Tournament when Smash 4 comes out?
People seem to be getting that a lot from my posts... Am I doing something wrong here? Lol kinda funny honestly
KittenMaster
Member
Would have been a good opportunity to throw in Polygon Fighter as a blank featureless version of the Mii Fighter.
Cloud actually has appeared in a game for Nintendo platforms. However they're appearances in Kingdom Hearts (the GBA game, maybe one of the DS games as well) and the Theatrhythm games. So it's just fanservice crossovers.
Not to mention that he is the main character in the game that ended the Square/Nintendo relationship for some time. He'll be a bad choice in a game celebrating Nintendo.
I feel we need to get on Twitter or Miiverse and make some noise about this. I know Sakurai is stubborn but it doesn't hurt to try.
The point of an invitational is an invite.
The idea being that being there at all is a privilege, especially if you're being invited to a venue like E3.
That said, I don't think I'd like to see quite as much randomness in a similar event in the future. Or at the very least, cut item spawns down lower and limit to 1v1. Way too much information to process at FFA with items everywhere.
And no boss stages. If E3 has done anything, it has convinced me that bosses suck and there should be a toggle or something.
Poltergust
Member
Man, I would love playing on the Mega Man stage if the Yellow Devil wasn't there. =/
Video showing Bowser's moveset and canceling dash with crouch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOEo0A7zVMU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOEo0A7zVMU
Same... The platforms there looked really nifty
The point of an invitational is an invite.
The idea being that bbeing there at all is a privilege, especially if you're being invited to a venue like E3.
That said, I don't think I'd like to see quite as much randomness in a similar event in the future. Or at the very least, cut item spawns down lower and limit to 1v1. Way too much information to process at FFA with items everywhere.
And no boss stages. If E3 has done anything, it has convinced me that bosses suck and there needs to be a toggle.
Yeah but when the novelty of that wears off and it's already released with better community rulesets for competitive play then I don't see the point.
Unless the invitees get free travel and accomodation again, in which case of course they'll go, no point not to then.
FFA was a massive problem at the invitational, especially with items, way too much going on for the commentators to actually do some good commentary beyond hyping up certain moments.
KittenMaster
Member
Yeah, for the first several matches of the invitation I felt more like I was watching a fireworks show than players playing. Once the items got toned down in later brackets was when it started getting more interesting.
Poltergust
Member
VGBootCamp actually uploaded footage for every single playable character in the 3DS version. Everyone should go check them out. I actually learned a couple of new things watching the Yoshi video.
Speaking of platforms, have you noticed that moving platforms seem to be a lot more deadly this time around? In City and Town, Prism Tower, and I think Wily's Castle, the platforms zoom off-screen in a split-second. It's actually kind of strange how fast they move.
VGBootCamp actually uploaded footage for every single playable character in the 3DS version. Everyone should go check them out. I actually learned a couple of new things watching the Yoshi video.
Speaking of platforms, have you noticed that moving platforms seem to be a lot more deadly this time around? In City and Town, Prism Tower, and I think Wily's Castle, the platforms zoom off-screen in a split-second. It's actually kind of strange how fast they move.
No I haven't but now I will be keeping a lookout for that
Bower has improved reach, improved speed, his Fair cancels instantly which is an improvement from past versions, crouch cancelled dashing gives him a massive advantage over other characters, Dair is now a spike from what I've heard so it's a better edge guard and bowser bomb instantly breaks shields.
They've really given a lot of tools to bowser this time around, now they just need to make crouch cancelling a global thing and not a bowser only tech.
Edit: He also has a fast Up-B out of shield, bowser bomb is now comboable.
I'm curious now why DJNintendo said bowser was terrible, considering he's a bowser main. The invitational bowser must have been incredibly different or something.
Which is why they should offer a Battlefield variety along with a Final Destination one. And before people give me beef for this again over misunderstanding, I literally mean keep the base and platform, not keep the base and add platforms in the exact same configuration as Battlefield. I'm only using the name to follow the naming convention of Final Destination mode since it is the neutral stage with platforms.
Poltergust
Member
Check out the recent Sheik video from VGBootCamp. 4:56.
Yeah! I think everyone wants that... Shame that I don't see it happening
It would be absurdly dumb to keep it bowser only on so many levels. It will either be removed or made global
Do you have a link? I'm on my phone and youtube is very hard to browse on it...
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