Spring-Loaded
Member
Are the items better or worse than in Brawl?
Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 9: F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5
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Original 12 armor
Beelzebufo
Banned
While I do say Mike/Marshal is an updated version of the Night Walker that is a fan video from Niconico. But even then someone could argue that Night Walker is not Mike since the primitive form does appear in Beat the Beat:
Also a Chorus Kid (if I see the name Chorus Men one more time…appears in Beat the Beat clearly indicating that Mike is not one:
Mike has puffier cheeks and is missing the bowtie and has fingers to boot.
Who the hell is Mike lol. You mean this guy?
I think you missed the point. The Chorus Men are so big that they appear in games outside of the RH series. And they still appear in Fever none the less. Like I said, you don't know what you're talking about. Stop.
Troubled Bat
Member
Chorus Men will be the next best thing.
While I do say Mike/Marshal is an updated version of the Night Walker that is a fan video from Niconico. But even then someone could argue that Night Walker is not Mike since the primitive form does appear in Beat the Beat:
Also a Chorus Kid (if I see the name Chorus Men one more time ) appears in Beat the Beat clearly indicating that Mike is not one:
Mike has puffier cheeks and is missing the bowtie and fingers to boot.
You mean like the Monk is clearly not just the generic employee with a Monk suit on? Or the fact that in GW, the Kids do NOT have rose tinted cheeks? The fact that they didn't even bother to give the character credit in the ending shows how much importance it was in differingiating him from Marshal, this is assuming they considered him a main character.
Beelzebufo
Banned
The Chorus Men have rosy cheeks in promotional material for the DS game. It's an emotion thing, not part of their design. The Munchy Monk game isn't part of the main game, hence why they don't appear in the credits.
We don't know. The item discussion seems to be based around people who think they are so importanted to smash and that it somehow doesn't detract from the skill when they're on even when we have examples of people being screwed over by the RNG in the invitational.
It seems to be less about smash 4 and more about people taking potshots at the competitive play style.
Whoops. Meant Matt. For some reason the UK gives him a different name
The staff role doesn't give the name of any of the characters in the Endless games.
Actually I was suggesting that an items tournament could be a fun alternative (read: not replacement) judging by the invitational. I enjoyed watching the items on matches and I'm sure others would to. I even jokingly suggested starting my own league for items.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I don't understand what people are arguing anymore
Beelzebufo
Banned
Something about items, something about Mewtwo, and people confusing Marshal with the Chorus Kids.
Truly you are a prophet of the Dome.
Rhythm Heaven characters it seems.
Ok, but it is nowhere near the level of Mario Kart's bull. Don't even try to spin that.
You have far more control over Smash. There are less players and no rubber banding because the player who has the lead can still get great items.
No one saying it's an even playing field, but it isn't as bad as MK like you implied in that response.
They looks as unbalanced as they were in Brawl. Especially Final Smashes.
Smash thread in a nutshell
MrSaturn99
Member
The side for items has these points:
Takes skill to use.
When items are on competive players fall apart
They would win anyways even with items on (see how that contradicts?)
The essence of smash and those who play without them are less skilled when items are on.
No items side:
Items are an equalizer and are very detrimental in determining skill
People disagreeing about the importance of items and how fun they are
Items aren't hard to use or at least not as much as people like to pretend + new game and physics making it trickier
Obviously not everyone is arguing these points even if they subscribe to the side but that's the gist of it
And then you have people giving their opinion about how they personally enjoy items and watching matches with items that state it as an opinion instead of injecting an argument into it and that's perfectly fine in my book.
To each their own
Edit:
But I specifically said it was not Mario Kart level in that very post. It simply effects it enough to not be an effective measurement of skill
This is completely wrong considering the fact that Mario Kart adjusts the item pools based on your position.
Everything about items in smash bros. is completely random, and then the randomly chosen items have random effects and spawn in random positions at random time intervals.
One of the complaints I often hear about the items in Brawl is how over powered they are, they're much worse so far in terms of how many one hit kill items there are.
Even ones that aren't the beetle. The drill arm and hocotate bomb can instakill due to there being no SDI in the game.
Someone mentioned this earlier and I'm not convinced the invitational format works for a serious tournament, in the sense of being enjoyable for spectators to watch.
If nintendo wants items on in their own tournament then it should be 1v1 and not the mess that was the invitational.
The point of tournaments is generally to watch people do things that are much more skilled than what the average person can do, that's the spectacle of it, items are great for a game that isn't released where you haven't seen much, but when it just looks like people playing with their friends at home due to all the random factors then there's nothing interesting about it.
Troubled Bat
Member
Indeed.
I'm excited for the potential stages/musics too
That potential FS!
I have high expectations on their Final Smash, it'll be a much greater version of DK's.
You can't argue that though, you can't argue that that's Chorus Kid and explain away why they don't appear in the credits, or even promotional material for the wii game. My point still stands, they don't appear in the credits so you can't say its them, that rosy cheeks design is permanent on the Munchy Monk character, so by your logic, its not Chorus Kid because it should only appear at times. You're being selective, my point is that those characters are not prominent in any if the games they are featured in and are only on the promotions for one of the games which isn't saying much. Anybody can be on the box art of anything, that doesn't make them prominent in the content. Prominent in the content is what Marshal was in Fever. And even then the monkey gives him a run for his money.
See, this is how I can tell who is impartial and who isn't.
The competitive community has been just as bad as those saying Smash can't be fun without items or is better played casually.
It has been this long, and a good portion of this fanbase still can't grow the hell up. It's still about this, "defending the way I like to playr" war. It is such a tired battle within the community, which is a shame because when the community is at its highest it's one of the best ones to be apart of.
Like fucking awesome moments like the Mega Man Final Smash at the invitational. I've never seen a crowd get that hype watching a game live.
Did I just warp back to the pre-Brawl days?
Beelzebufo
Banned
Yes you can, and people already have. He doesn't appear in the credits because its a side game. The rosy cheeks are because he's eating, Rhythm Heaven characters frequently gain rosy cheeks in certain situations. The Chorus Kids are prominently features in Rhythm Heaven DS (they even show up in tons of official comics) and have appeared in every Rhythm Heaven game since their creation (and one game that wasn't even a Rhythm Heaven game). You can't say that about any other character from Rhythm Heaven.
Of course, none of this matters, because Marshal clearly isn't in the game. The Chorus Kids are if either of them are.
Nobody here has said that though. I have no issues if someone wants to play the way they do
Stop injecting conversations that didn't happen here or that I'm not advocating for into this
I would agree everyday of the week that people on both sides can be assholes
No one has bloody said items are objectively not fun though, you can enjoy whatever the hell rule set you want in smash.
But to somehow imply that leaving on the items doesn't affect how much of a test of skill the game is is ridiculous.
People were hyped at the invitational because they're seeing things they haven't seen before, there wasn't any inherent skill or challenge involved in megaman's final smash, it was just people desperate to see something that hadn't yet been seen in full for a fan favourite character.,
Smash at EVO last year for the first time in god knows how long was one of the hypest moments in smash for a long time and the invitational really doesn't top it, in my opinion.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Technically speaking I consider it more of a character updating design. Like how the RH monkey looked different in Tengoku compared to their contemporary look. So that's how I see it with Chorus Kids -> Marshal.
With that said, Yanyan (the doughboy from Tengoku) isn't Marshal, but due to retroactive referencing (Marshal doing the Nightwalk revival in Fever), I'd say it's a nice gesture of showing relationship.
With that said, Yanyan (the doughboy from Tengoku) isn't Marshal, but due to retroactive referencing (Marshal doing the Nightwalk revival in Fever), I'd say it's a nice gesture of showing relationship.
ZSS's final smash in particular was ridiculous at the invitational.
Have you played MK8? People can get 3 red shells in 2nd place, along with the Crazy 8 or Super 8 or whatever.
It is crazy out of whack at times, and the game is constantly trying to fuck with those who are GOOD. Smash doesn't do that, and instead fucks with everyone impartially. In MK8 you can run through 3 item boxes and get nothing but coins, good luck defending yourself from a red shell or blue shell when that happens. There are very few items in Smash that can't be avoided.
Try getting first place in all the cups at 150cc without having to restart. You will see that the luck of the draw element sometimes makes the game downright masochistic. Albeit, pretty fun.
Spring-Loaded
Member
People are playing the demo now, right? I was just asking if the items were as overpowered or worthless as they were in Brawl. I had no fun with items in Brawl whereas I almost exclusively played with items on in SSB64 and Melee. My question's directed at those who've played the game.
Sounds lame. There's the item switch, but even still, I'd prefer items generally have some balance. I guess as long as stuff like that Dragoon rocket thing are uncommon, then fine. I never felt like a fight one too one-sided if someone had an item in the first two games, but I did in Brawl. And then all the ones that were OHKO were boring and pointless
Items favor an early lead in smash and can also give that early lead. Like I said before they're not Mario kart level by a long shot but they're also not there to determine skill
Edit
Ah my bad! I misunderstood
When mario kart item boxes spawn at random points along the track, at random intervals, give you a completely random item from all of the items available regardless of how well you're doing and then the items, instead of having a fixed benefit, do anything from the entire spectrum of possible effects including misfires that damage you to massively over powered versions.
When that even BEGINS to happen, you can tell me that mario kart items are more luck based than smash items and affect the skill required to a lesser degree.
He looks like a generic Samurai to me and then they created the Wandering Samurai as a character based off of that game. Just like Marshal is based on Mike.
And then we have the argument that Chorus Kid made more cameos, but the Monkey has been in more games and cameo'd in the same game that the Chorus Kids did. The monkey also got his on hat in Miiverse. You can't argue that they have special treatment when there are stronger cases for other characters in the series. I think I got some lame excuse like the monkey was generic or something. You could argue that but I see a Mario and Toad hat and not a Chorus Kid and Rhythm Monkey hat. Just a Rhythm Monkey hat. There's just a lot of double standard at work with this.
I think the point he is trying to make is that MK items are a better equalizer when smash is just random. Something I would agree on but not exactly something that takes away from the skill argument
and he agreed there so...
Yeah, ok. When you responded to that poster, you weren't implying that the items in Smash were Mario Kart's level of skill punishing.
You win.
EDIT: just read your last post.
I'm pretty sure most of that crowd saw Mega Man's Final Smash before that event. If that is your reasoning for why they were cheering then ok. Lol.
Never did I say items are a proper barometer for measuring skill, that was never my argument. A skilled player can still win with items and lose with them, but it is not Mario Kart's level of trying to screw with skilled players. Not to knock Mario Kart, because the fanbase isn't as segregated as Smash's and it's generally accepted that you will be destroyed by items in that game.
Beelzebufo
Banned
You can't be serious at this point lol
Geminosity
Member
You mean like the interviewer and wrestler, who also appear in G&W?
http://youtu.be/GgFEtYXAcLo?t=18s (they're on the left, in front of the building with the green shirt sign)
To be honest I think the interviewer and wrestler pair are probably better known than the chorus kids. I didn't even know about the chorus kids until the leak, yet I've known about the wrestling pair and others for ages now. Their game is just so memetic that there there are countless parodies of it :3
They punish skill but not to the anywhere near extent of MK... That's what I'm saying
Why is this so hard to get?
Edit for the barometer part: I am saying that items disrupt the test of skill by allowing someone a huge advantage by simply being in the right place at the wrong time
A skilled player could certainly win or lose with or without them. That was never in contention here. It's simply that they disrupt a test of skill by injecting randomness into it that MIGHT screw over the more skilled player or even give him a bigger advantage... and really if he won by being lucky with the spawns how do we know he is still better?
Noone had seen the full final smash and my point still stands that he was a fan favourite character, people just wanted to see it in action, the conditions that lead to it, other than the fact that people at first thought it missed so there was a bit of teasing going on there, weren't the reason for the hype.
Or maybe I'm just completely misunderstanding the casual audience and they thought the fact that the random number of hits needed to break that smash ball ended up letting megaman grab it instead of rosalina and then he pressed B was some amazing feat worthy of hype.
Well I genuinely believe smash items can screw you over more than mario kart items.
If only because you actually have smash bros. tournaments where there is sometimes large amounts of money on the line.
Beelzebufo
Banned
You mean like the interviewer and wrestler, who also appear in G&W?
http://youtu.be/GgFEtYXAcLo?t=18s (they're on the left, in front of the building with the green shirt sign)
To be honest I think the interviewer and wrestler pair are probably better known than the chorus kids. I didn't even know about the chorus kids until the leak, yet I've known about the wrestling pair and others for ages now. Their game is just so memetic that there there are countless parodies of it :3
I would argue Chorus Kids are better because, being musicians, they more accurately represent the series.
The rosy cheeks are there because he's eating, the whole time the mini game goes on because he is eating? Is this a joke? In the games they don't appear on the default character faces, he is not emoting when he is waiting for the food. And you realise that Chorus Kids do not have hands and feet and that character in Munchy Monk does?
I'm aware of the comics but that was japanese only. I'm arguing that it was a bad choice to choose the Chorus Kids, just like it was a bad choice to choose Chrom. Sakurai can make bad choices, he is a human. But the main thing is people will buy the game anyway.
Geminosity
Member
I won't deny that a lot of the rhythm heaven gets parodied, but the pure volume of the interviewer ones is above and beyond most... I suggest you click the link in my post for the word 'it' :3 And those are only counting the half-decent ones: If I went with ones with terrible quality like some of those chorus kids ones I'd be here all day
Not75Drops
Member
Here's mine. Not much different from the rest. If Wolf is put in then I'd replace Mewtwo.
It's weird, but at least it's not another 3 month difference.
powerdrain
Member
You guys are debating Marshal's connection to the Chorus Men? Me and Beelzebufo did it first
And when I saw today's update, the only thing I could think of was:
And when I saw today's update, the only thing I could think of was:
Well, for Smash Brawl :
JP : January 31th
US : March 9th
EU : June 27th
I know, I'm from the UK so I had to import Brawl but I thought Nintendo had started doing worldwide releases with their big games. At least Europe is getting it the same time as NA. =P
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