Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 9: F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5

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I've never heard any competitive player say they aren't interested in new modes and extra characters, the implication that the competitive community don't/can't/won't also enjoy the game at a casual level for the content is somewhat insulting.

If the two don't come to the same opinion then it's because the casual player feels entitled to his style of play over all others or has a bad attitude towards competitive players, reasonable competitive players will want things that add to the games depth without scaring away casuals and if the casual player is arguing against them then it's just because it's something suggested by a competitive player.



I mean look at the change to the ledge that stops players camping on it due to a lack of invincibility, this is something that makes the game more interesting as a competitive game compared to brawl's ledge stalling, but this concept wasn't really something the competitive community was vocal about.

So now you have people calling it an "interesting change", but I can guarantee if the competitive community were asking for it before it was described there would be backlash too it, and if it was then implemented afterwards, people would complain that sakurai was pandering to a fanbase that doesn't "deserve" it or start being all "there, he gave you what you want now you'd have to be entitled to ask for it to be more competitive"
Example wasn't meant to be perfect, just saying Melee players don't value Brawl's merits over Melee's, and vice versa.

You have a point though: often times competitive players are the only ones upset about the changes, while casual players will enjoy the game however it turns out. Other times I've seen people say that they actively preferred Brawl's mechanics. We can't always group everyone into the same lines of thinking.

The entitlement issue you bring up, I think it's on more of an individual basis. There are people on both sides with bad attitudes about it.
 
I also understand that ProjectM is geared towards the competitive crowd but why did they have to make every stage stationary? I enjoy the WarioWare stage in Brawl cause you can do the mini games during battle, but in PM it's just another Battlefield.

You kindof answered your own question there, because Project M is geard towards the competitive crowd.

The minigames change the stage into a flat walkoff which means easy KOs for chain grabbers and fox.

And no, it's not just another battlefield, it has more platforms and a smaller horizontal blast zone as well as being smaller in general with vertical walls that help the recoveries of characters with wall jumps.

Basically different types of characters would prefer warioware to battlefield, it's all part of the stage counter picking metagame which you might want to read up on to learn more about.
 
I also understand that ProjectM is geared towards the competitive crowd but why did they have to make every stage stationary? I enjoy the WarioWare stage in Brawl cause you can do the mini games during battle, but in PM it's just another Battlefield.

The goal of Project M was to make a competitively designed and focused game that can still be enjoyed by everyone, and adding a bunch of neutral stages with varied backdrops was one step toward that. WarioWare's minigames forced the game to change rapidly and even winning the games could be a risk if you got a Super Mushroom and someone else got invincibility. Even if you ignored them, they turned the stages into walk-offs and added a bunch of hazards. It was incompatible with the scope of their project.

But if you really wanted, you could just restore Brawl's version of WarioWare Inc.

edit: oh, beat :(
 
Welp, ban #2, I'm assuming it's 3 bans and you're perma'd right? Probably going to be gone before smash 4 even releases then.

How many times you've been banned is irrelevant, what matters is what you did to get yourself banned. People who have been banned A LOT are more likely to do something that gets them perm'd though in my experience. Anyway, if you're concerned about your # of bans, you may want to modify your behavior - you're clearly doing SOMETHING wrong :P

More movement options means that there are more things a player can do at any time and increase the amount of clever predictions or reads that an opponent needs to make to be able to beat the other player, this makes the game a more interesting game to play at a competitive level because it's more engaging and it makes it more engaging for the spectators because it makes matches more dynamic, thus allowing things to happen that you might not have seen before due to all the possible interactions in the game.

So yes, giving a player more options in a fighting game does make the game fundamentally better and I'm surprised that so many fucking people try to argue against this.

If we are talking specifically about movement options then yes......and no. Street Fighter isn't any worse of a fighting game even though it has the worst movement options of like almost any fighting game in the market. Not that Smash Bros = Street Fighter or that works for one series works for another but I'd just avoid blanket/definitive statements.

Because melee was a brilliant game for competitive play and casual play whereas brawl went in the direction of alienating one audience for the game, this pissed off the competitive audience for smash but because it increased the amount of things that casuals would appreciate they started to look down on competitive players for not enjoying what we've been given without fully understanding (or caring, honestly) what the competitive audience wants.

I'm just going to flat out state that casuals don't give a fuck about how the game plays as long as they have shiny things to look at, it's why whenever you mention stuff about making smash 4 more competitive you're guaranteed to get replies of "stop trying to make it more like melee", despite changes making it better for all levels of play.

The vocal anti-competitive fanbase have become somewhat entitled due to brawl and Sakurai's general attitude, thinking that the game should be for them only and that smash is supposed to be as anti-competitive as possible.

I really don't mind smash at a casual level, but I really wish that audience would stop trying to butt into conversations about mechanics that they don't understand, especially when it doesn't affect their enjoyment of the game whatsoever.

I too share your hope that Smash 4 can be a good competitive game and can help grow the scene but cut the victim complex and that "casuals only care about pretty colors" nonsense pls, it helps nobody and makes your posts annoying to read.
 
They could've atleast thrown us filthy casuals a bone.

I don't see why they would, I imagine there's a very small population of ultra casual smash players that want to use Project M.

And if they were that interested in modding they could look into putting the stages they wanted back in.
 
How many times you've been banned is irrelevant, what matters is what you did to get yourself banned. People who have been banned A LOT are more likely to do something that gets them perm'd though in my experience. Anyway, if you're concerned about your # of bans, you may want to modify your behavior - you're clearly doing SOMETHING wrong :P

My problem is that I'm used to being on 4chan considering that's my main internet community as well as the fact that I hate the general GAF userbase too much, the smash threads are the only places where I don't get immensely annoyed with people.
Also I'm british so I'm used to swearing all of the time which I guess comes off as more abrasive than they are to people from other countries.

If we are talking specifically about movement options then yes......and no. Street Fighter isn't any worse of a fighting game even though it has the worst movement options of like almost any fighting game in the market. Not that Smash Bros = Street Fighter or that works for one series works for another but I'd just avoid blanket/definitive statements.

I think a lot of people hate SFIV for it being a more defensive game though don't they? But it's still played because capcom puts money into tournament pools. That's what I've heard anyway.

I think when talking specifically about smash the number of movement options is important, I guess it isn't important to fighting games, but smash is so different compared to other fighters with it's more physics based platformer style gameplay that the movement is a big part of the games depth.

I too share your hope that Smash 4 can be a good competitive game and can help grow the scene but cut the victim complex and that "casuals only care about pretty colors" nonsense pls, it helps nobody and makes your posts annoying to read.

A lot of the vocal anti-competitive players are like that though.
 
I would love if Smash 4 had a bunch of neutral stages with no hazards and no walk-offs. Even tiny variations in blast zones and the location of a few platforms can create huge differences in a match. Compare Fountain of Dreams to Battlefield for instance. That's much better than FD versions of everything.

Overall, I think Smash 4 when compared to Brawl will be a stronger competitive game to play . Elimination of tripping and better balance should make that immediately clear. What's going to hurt the game's acceptance among competitive players is that it's still (in its current version) going to be slow and favor defensive play.

The pace means that it's not going to be fun to watch. And that's going to hurt attendance and viewership of tournaments. And if it's not fun to watch, then forget about MLG or EVO after the initial hype of a new game wears off.

Overall, I fall in the camp that you don't need Wavedashing or L-Cancelling, but if you do create more movement options and reduce lag in moves (favoring offense), the game will still appeal equally to casual players (who either won't notice or won't care), and it will also appease competitive players.
 
Anyone see that ugly boxing ring they are adding to pm?

You mean they're starting to add in SSB4 stuff?

Bq7ZqYTCcAESpGD.jpg
 
It looks like a bad knockoff it's on the front page of smashboards.

It's for the tournament at CEO and based off of the boxing ring that they play the games in over there, not really a knock-off at all.

E: I guess it does look a bit similar actually, doubt they actually spent much time on it though and seems like a really stupid idea if it's a walkoff stage.
 
I wonder though, do you have any hope of better communication among smashers?
I don't have any hope at all as long as the vocal part of the community on both sides are like Joeinky and MaverickHunterAsh. Just labels the other side with a huge generalization.

Loud and condescending towards the other side. Won't attempt to be informative and have some decent discussion.

EDIT: Reason I'm calling those 2 out is because one was banned for such behaviour and the other openly admitted he would be banned by the time Smash 4 releases.
 
Also I'm british so I'm used to swearing all of the time which I guess comes off as abrasive to people from other countries.

I think a lot of people hate SFIV for it being a more defensive game though don't they? But it's still played because capcom puts money into tournament pools. That's what I've heard anyway.

...

A lot of the vocal anti-competitive players are like that though.

I'm scottish but I barely swear at all. I like swearing but I think like any tool it loses it's edge if over-used. When I swear, people take notice :3

As for SFIV, I know it's not the main point of your post but i felt like having a rant about it...
I think the reason that most people i know who take some offence to SFIV is because it overshadows the rest of the fighting games. It's VERY hard to get people into stuff outside of SFIV because:
a) everyone plays SFIV so there's lots of opponents already on it (which in itself is a self-fulfilling prophecy :/ )
b) once people spend ages learning SFIV, they're more reluctant to start from scratch and learn a new fighting game and it's quirks.
In many ways, it's like the WoW of fighting games: No matter what new stuff comes out, the majority of people who'll play a fighting game keep returning to the SFIV :P

I personally dislike SFIV because of it's arbitrary execution difficulty. I can slap out silly combos in other fighting games with relative easy yet in SFIV I'm lucky if I can even do Poison's BnBs because they have incredibly tight links. Even her rekkas seem to have somewhat absurd execution windows, which baffle me. One of the reasons I keep an eye on Smash is because it has the lowest barrier to entry of most mainstream games, except maybe high level Melee: The AT stuff isn't immediately obvious to most players and you'll see most novices lose interest rapidly when an AT-user is put up against them. I theorise this is because they can't see why they're getting destroyed, unlike something like Soul Calibur where it's more intuitive/a lot easier to work out what the opponent's doing to wreck you :P

Anyhoo, just because some people who have an opposing viewpoint to you say flammable stuff, doesn't make it a good idea to follow suit. I mean, it's not like they're doing a good job of convincing you of their point by doing it, so what makes you think it'll work any better the other way around? :3 I like it when you post calmly. The people who aren't receptive to that aren't really going to be receptive to anything anyhoo so it's not worth getting angry/banned for :P
 
I don't have any hope at all as long as the vocal part of the community on both sides are like Joeinky and MaverickHunterAsh.

Loud and condescending towards the other side. Won't attempt to be informative and have some decent discussion.


Agree with the above. I fully admit that I tend to sympathize more with the 'casual' side on this debate because that is how I play, I find both sides being annoying. Competitive people like Joeinky saying that casuals ruined Smash because they have no standards, while casuals call competitive people elitists. At this point, I do not think the two sides will ever come together since we have different ideas on what makes a Smash game. There is also the problem of opinions not being respected and opinions passed as fact.

This is the reason why I do not really post anything on Zelda. There is a lot of bad blood among fans there and don't even get started on Pokemon.
 
Cakes.

I don't expect everyone to agree, but I'll just say that #GAFNoAnalogies is subjectively the best approach here.

So, one more day until that GameFAQs leak gets shut down...
Or venerated.

I'm not holding my breath.

Welp, ban #2, I'm assuming it's 3 bans and you're perma'd right? Probably going to be gone before smash 4 even releases then.
Who was banned?

I don't think it's strictly a three-strikes-and-you're-out system, but if a person accumulates a lot of bans over a long time, or not-quite-as-many bans over a short period, or does something extremely, egregiously awful, or is a Junior when they earn ban #1 (real Juniors, not "I was a Member but the mods say I can't make threads anymore" Juniors), that's when the permaban-hammer is dropped.
 
I think the main issue at play is that different people want different things from the series. We can all list the advantages and disadvantages of the two games all day, but if BrawlPlayer8 doesn't care about hitstun and dash dancing, and MeleeDude14 isn't concerned with having 10 extra characters and new modes, then the two won't come to the same opinion.

Difference of opinion is something that still is there and can be annoying, even when well communicated.

What do you feel about these games isn't being communicated effectively and objectively?

(Btw, I used to enjoy reading your blog. Haven't checked it in years; do you still update it?)

Thanks. I haven't been updating the blog recently (here's a link if anyone is curious: http://critical-gaming.com/about/) . Making BaraBariBall (a smash inspired fighting game in Sportsfriends for PSN) took a lot of my time/focus. I also decided to do more open game analysis discussion and projects for people who are interested/dedicated. (PM me if you're either of these)

What about Smash isn't being communicated effectively and objectively? Short answer, all of it. Less harsh answer, we try to explain what they think and feel to the best of our ability. It's great that gamers everywhere attempt challenging conversations/topics. The tricky part is talking about smash quickly turns into a game design discussion, and that's something that's way outside of most player's experience. Playing games well/a lot/competitively is great for learning more about specific games, but that dedication doesn't translate into an understanding of game design.

It's very common for people to attempt to explain things about what smash is or why it's good using these tiny "rules of thumb" type statements about balance, options, control, randomness, etc.. But I've found that with any one of these topics, understanding the real design behind it takes much much more work that most realize; work like years of study, reading, writing, and interestingly playing non-smash games and participating in non-gaming activities.

Whether one goes the subjective or objective route, I don't see enough organized examples/data in most conversations about Smash. I think being driven and compelled by one's feelings is great fuel, but this energy must be used for the right purpose. Yelling and calling others out isn't the right purpose. Backlashing isn't the right purpose.

When I did some of my smash research years ago I polled hundreds of smashers only to draw a few simple conclusions. I also conducted research/experiments with players at my biweekly tournaments. And later I interviewed dozens of players at Apex2013 to get a feel for what "pro" smashers really thought (turned it into a podcast). Even within a group like "pro smashers" you'd be surprised at the diversity of thought and opinion. The way to get to meaningful, illuminating conclusions is through this kind of effort.

In the world of game design and art so little is "GOOD" or "BAD". 95% is "yeah, well... maybe... it's a lot more complicated than that".

I think the best part about games criticism (talking about game and game design well) is that it gives us the best way to talk about objective things AND subjective things. It helps us understand what the game is and how people might have unique experience because of it. It gives us the structure to map out all opinions and navigate between then without the need to take up sides and fight all the time.

Not to shamelessly plug my own work, but I worked on this with a team and it shows the kind of thing I'm talking about in terms of good games criticism. www.starseedobservatory.com My analysis/contribution is very firm but fair with the game, Starseed Pilgrim. There are parts of the game that I like and didn't like. But my article was well received by the biggest fans and un-fans (had to make up a word there) and developer(s) of the game. Also on the site you'll find the "wall of quotes" because I felt that it was important to have everyone's voices represented in some way. You'll even find GAF on that quote wall.

Anything less than that, I think, runs the risk of overlooking obvious points, people, and opinions. And that's the kind of thing that makes people really upset. The evidence is right here in the thread. Smash is such a beloved and cautious topic.
 
That's weird. I thought the P:M guys said at one point they specifically didn't want to add anything they thought would show up in Smash 4.
 
Thanks. I haven't been updating the blog recently (here's a link if anyone is curious: http://critical-gaming.com/about/) . Making BaraBariBall (a smash inspired fighting game in Sportsfriends for PSN) took a lot of my time/focus. I also decided to do more open game analysis discussion and projects for people who are interested/dedicated. (PM me if you're either of these)

What about Smash isn't being communicated effectively and objectively? Short answer, all of it. Less harsh answer, we try to explain what they think and feel to the best of our ability. It's great that gamers everywhere attempt challenging conversations/topics. The tricky part is talking about smash quickly turns into a game design discussion, and that's something that's way outside of most player's experience. Playing games well/a lot/competitively is great for learning more about specific games, but that dedication doesn't translate into an understanding of game design.

It's very common for people to attempt to explain things about what smash is or why it's good using these tiny "rules of thumb" type statements about balance, options, control, randomness, etc.. But I've found that with any one of these topics, understanding the real design behind it takes much much more work that most realize; work like years of study, reading, writing, and interestingly playing non-smash games and participating in non-gaming activities.

Whether one goes the subjective or objective route, I don't see enough organized examples/data in most conversations about Smash. I think being driven and compelled by one's feelings is great fuel, but this energy must be used for the right purpose. Yelling and calling others out isn't the right purpose. Backlashing isn't the right purpose.

When I did some of my smash research years ago I polled hundreds of smashers only to draw a few simple conclusions. I also conducted research/experiments with players at my biweekly tournaments. And later I interviewed dozens of players at Apex2013 to get a feel for what "pro" smashers really thought (turned it into a podcast). Even within a group like "pro smashers" you'd be surprised at the diversity of thought and opinion. The way to get to meaningful, illuminating conclusions is through this kind of effort.

In the world of game design and art so little is "GOOD" or "BAD". 95% is "yeah, well... maybe... it's a lot more complicated than that".

I think the best part about games criticism (talking about game and game design well) is that it gives us the best way to talk about objective things AND subjective things. It helps us understand what the game is and how people might have unique experience because of it. It gives us the structure to map out all opinions and navigate between then without the need to take up sides and fight all the time.

Not to shamelessly plug my own work, but I worked on this with a team and it shows the kind of thing I'm talking about in terms of good games criticism. www.starseedobservatory.com My analysis/contribution is very firm but fair with the game, Starseed Pilgrim. There are parts of the game that I like and didn't like. But my article was well received by the biggest fans and un-fans (had to make up a word there) and developer(s) of the game. Also on the site you'll find the "wall of quotes" because I felt that it was important to have everyone's voices represented in some way. You'll even find GAF on that quote wall.

Anything less than that, I think, runs the risk of overlooking obvious points, people, and opinions. And that's the kind of thing that makes people really upset. The evidence is right here in the thread. Smash is such a beloved and cautious topic.

Woah! You made BaraBariBall? Awesome! :D
I'm envious XD
Though I'm trying not to think too much about it until I finish my current game, I've dabbled with some versus game prototypes and nailing down a system that allows interesting weighted choices while still being approachable, from scratch, is as difficult as it is interesting :3
 
Agree with the above. I fully admit that I tend to sympathize more with the 'casual' side on this debate because that is how I play, I find both sides being annoying. Competitive people like Joeinky saying that casuals ruined Smash because they have no standards, while casuals call competitive people elitists. At the point, I do not think the two sides will ever come together since we have different ideas on what makes a Smash game. There is also the problem of opinions not being respected and opinions passed as fact.

This is the reason why I do not really post anything on Zelda. There is a lot of bad blood among fans there and don't even get started on Pokemon.

I think there's a pretty easy solution that would make the game work for both sides. The problem is that Sakurai believes that certain design changes (such as reducing landing lag, increasing combo-ability, among others) would repel the more casual players.

Personally, I believe that Sakurai is incorrect in that theory. I don't believe that adding more movement options, allowing you to cancel a dash, etc. will deter casual players. I think most won't notice.

It's not because casual players lack taste. It's because with a bunch of items and stage hazards, the choices you make based on the core mechanics become diminished. When random externalities are introduced, those begin to dictate a lot about how the match is played. You only need to see what happens when a Smash Ball comes out to realize that.

I also don't believe there is any sales evidence to back up Sakurai's belief either. Brawl sold more, but it did so on a runaway success of a console. Melee's attach rate was significantly better, and that the game is even close to Brawl in sales says something about its desirability among casual players.
 
If we are comparing technical skill needed to play Street Fighter 4 vs melee with Ryu being the "face" of street fighter and fox being the "face" of melee:

SF4= 1, melee= 100 (seriously)

edit: the first time that you try to short hop with fox you are like "o_0... why is he still doing a normal jump!?". And thats just the begining :P...
 
I don't have any hope at all as long as the vocal part of the community on both sides are like Joeinky and MaverickHunterAsh.

Loud and condescending towards the other side. Won't attempt to be informative and have some decent discussion.

I don't like how you're equating me to MHA if he's who I think he is.

I've posted informatively and not "loud" before but it generally gets ignored so that anti-competitive people can continue with their misinformed agenda, so yes of course I'm going to be condescending to people who are like that.


I'm scottish but I barely swear at all. I like swearing but I think like any tool it loses it's edge if over-used. When I swear, people take notice :3

I don't swear for the edge or anything like that, I just do it because it feels good to say.

Anyhoo, just because some people who have an opposing viewpoint to you say flammable stuff, doesn't make it a good idea to follow suit. I mean, it's not like they're doing a good job of convincing you of their point by doing it, so what makes you think it'll work any better the other way around? :3 I like it when you post calmly. The people who aren't receptive to that aren't really going to be receptive to anything anyhoo so it's not worth getting angry/banned for :P

I do it more for my own sake than to try and convert their opinion, sometimes you just want to call someone a twat, you know? It's stupid, but I don't value my membership here that much considering I only enjoy one thread (and I've since become a member of smashboards anyway but damn is that site fucking slow despite having so many users).


Agree with the above. I fully admit that I tend to sympathize more with the 'casual' side on this debate because that is how I play, I find both sides being annoying. Competitive people like Joeinky saying that casuals ruined Smash because they have no standards, while casuals call competitive people elitists. At this point, I do not think the two sides will ever come together since we have different ideas on what makes a Smash game. There is also the problem of opinions not being respected and opinions passed as fact.

This is the reason why I do not really post anything on Zelda. There is a lot of bad blood among fans there and don't even get started on Pokemon.

Casuals didn't ruin smash, I have never said that - brawl ruined smash for trying to be a game that divided the two fanbases unlike melee.
 
And yes, smash 4 probably will be competitive either way and have a following just like Brawl did, but Brawl wasn't a good competitive game, it didn't grow the scene and it wasn't exciting to play or watch.

This is not a wholly correct statement. Brawl is very exciting to watch. I actually enjoyed a lot of the Brawl matches at SKTAR3 more than the Melee matches (although both were inferior to the Project M matches). Saying something isn't exciting is a purely subjective statement, and shouldn't be used as a basis for argument.
 
I take it you're not too familiar with the Brawl modding scene? It's actually pretty easy for JUST alt costumes.

I'm not savvy on that stuff lol

I don't like how you're equating me to MHA if he's who I think he is.

I've posted informatively and not "loud" before but it generally gets ignored so that anti-competitive people can continue with their misinformed agenda, so yes of course I'm going to be condescending to people who are like that.




I don't swear for the edge or anything like that, I just do it because it feels good to say.



I do it more for my own sake than to try and convert their opinion, sometimes you just want to call someone a twat, you know? It's stupid, but I don't value my membership here that much considering I only enjoy one thread (and I've since become a member of smashboards anyway but damn is that site fucking slow despite having so many users).




Casuals didn't ruin smash, I have never said that - brawl ruined smash for trying to be a game that divided the two fanbases unlike melee.

Brawl ruining smash is your opinion. What is people posting opinions as facts?
 
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