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[Kinyou]

It's not necessarily racism, but the meaningless culture appropriation annoys me just as much. It's like hey; you guys were nearly wiped out and now live on really small reserves and are marginalized like fuck. We're totally taking your culture and killing it even more!

1. It's not even paying homage just blatant 'Hey this looks cool! Let's make it a thing! Oh we're soooo cool! We don't even really know where it came from but it looks awesome as I do my strange dance to this awesome indie song!

OK, that I can understand. Especially since natives are already having a hard time keeping their identity and culture.

2. Only majorly influential members of tribes were allowed to wear them; and the feathers actually mean something. Each feather represented an act of bravery; and let's face it. The bravest thing 3/4 of those hipster fucks have done was graduate high school.

I see what you're getting at but I'm not sure if that's the soundest logic. Would you also argue that traditionally only men were allowed to wear them so no women should be allowed to put them on?

When I see shit like this, it just annoys me greatly.

I agree, that comes off as ignorant, especially because it actually tries to look traditional. When I read hipsters in headdresses I was imagining something more like this:

 

[boiled goose]

This thread is an embarrassment. This was an obvious shot at Kim for her interracial marriage to Kanye. Just blatant racism from that dude.

When it comes to racial and gender/sex sensitivity, GAF truly depresses me sometimes.

 

[Silky]

glad almost all of these were covered in this thread
http://africasacountry.com/10-excuses-most-dutch-people-make-for-racism/

flawless

 

[Gold_Loot]

i have not made one racist comment in this thread so i can't see why the truth's hurting. just take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why?

deep breath....

You are, you're just doing it in a passive aggressive way.You're mixing fact with your own personal fantasy. I should have known better than to argue with a person like yourself . You're baiting for the sake of argument, and I'm sorry I took that bait. You can be angry at the world on your own little corner.

You're not hurting anyone but yourself. Good day sir.

 

[Roland1979]

It's tradition in Holland. Kids don't associate zwarte pieten with a race.
Hell, I was even dressed as a zwarte piet a few times when I was younger. Didn't see any harm myself. Thought it was fun.

Just because it's tradition doesn't make it ok. And children have a wide imagination and see it looks to odd to be a real person of African decent. However, it's not only extremely offensive, it was also born out of racism. People like you get taught that's it's ok, but it's not. Things like "it's from the chimney, that's why he is black" where all invented LATER, they also clearly have a submissive role towards a single white male. Also, when "Zwarte Piet" used to enter classrooms, my mother told me, the teacher pretended he was stupid and ignorant and he acted like he didn't know the outcome of 2+2 so all the children could laugh at him. At is all very obvious and very clear, with our history of slave trade on a industrial scale, that is was born out of that background and it needs to go.

 

[pants]

This thread is an embarrassment. This was an obvious shot at Kim for her interracial marriage to Kanye. Just blatant racism from that dude.

The guy in the OP is racist as faurk, of that there can be no doubt, This thread became embarrassing when the case in the OP was extended to brand practices most here no nothing about as racist.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

Maybe it's their misplaced arrogance, maybe its the broken English, or maybes it their complete obliviousness to the history of racial relations within their own country, but these threads always remind me of how air headed Europeans can be.

 

[boiled goose]

glad almost all of these were covered in this thread
http://africasacountry.com/10-excuses-most-dutch-people-make-for-racism/

Amazing. Should have been in the OP.

Maybe it's their misplaced arrogance, maybe its the broken English, or maybes it their complete obliviousness to the history of racial relations within their own country, but these threads always remind me of how air headed European can be.

I would instead say how far up inside their own ass people can be in general. Don't think this is an issue of one group or another, just what clearly came up in this thread. Hopefully some people can take a step back and do some reflecting.

 

[justjohn]

This thread is an embarrassment. This was an obvious shot at Kim for her interracial marriage to Kanye. Just blatant racism from that dude.

Nah he's Arab so it's totally not racist. Only white people can be racist.

 

[Kinvara]

What? Are you talking to me? Did you read my posts? I don't think you quite got my point...
of course history matters.
All I was saying is that even with a different history, I'm not convinced caricaturization would ever be good, or if it would even happen.

Azula's agreeing with you but just adding to your post.

 

[boiled goose]

Azula's agreeing with you but just adding to your post.

Ok. I was confused. 0.0

 

[ICKE]

The most famous Finnish candy manufacturer was forced to change their licorice logo as a result of its offensive nature (see above). I believe the Dutch holiday is very similar in a sense that the population itself might not find it offensive, be it black or white, and the historical background might be innocent. That doesn't change the ramifications globally, because while people on this forum might say that Americans do not understand the cultural particularities of Netherlands, the same applies to Europeans and what has occurred in America.

Many countries have a troubled history with institutionalized racism. While these holidays are not intentionally racist, it would be a sign of respect not to use depictions that play into that troubled dynamic - even if the country in question is located far away (Japan comes to mind). Same applies to religious people and the use of swastika, candy bars and so on.

It's just a difficult situation when such holidays are integral part of the culture.

 

[shuri]

Everything about this family is staged and you guys are falling for it.

 

[Kraftwerk]

Everything about this family is staged and you guys are falling for it.

We are past discussing that, and don't just waltz in here claiming to know that this is staged as if it's a fact. It might be, or it might not be. But as I said, the real topic here is people defending blackface.

 

[Winterfang]

Everything about this family is staged and you guys are falling for it.

Let's say this is staged. Now what? Does it in any way defends Europeans using Black Face?

 

[Silky]

Everything about this family is staged and you guys are falling for it.

What does this have to do with blackface?

You're trying way too hard.

 

[kamorra]

Here's an important pro-tip for anyone who decides to enter into a conversation about racism: If you're a White person, don't try to tell any person of color what isn't racist. Truth be told, you don't have the privilege of making that distinction...

Here's one of the reasons why this discussion is impossible. Tell any white foreigner living in another country in Europe that he can't possibly know what racism is. Our perspectives just differs too much. According to this thread I'm a ignorant racist coming from a extremely racist country (Italy). I get that I often have a strange way yo expressing myself. Might be because my English is shitty or I'm just a dumb racist. But now we're already getting compared to stormfront.

Still, I'm sorry if I offended the black people here.

 

[lord quas]

I think most Dutch people defend Zwarte Piet because they're unable to connect the character to racism, not because they actually think racism is O.K. I'm just not sure why that should matter though, because it clearly is offensive to some black people. I cannot tell someone to not feel offended, so the best solution is probably to try and have an open mind and find a compromise.

 

[pants]

We are past discussing that, and don't just waltz in here claiming to know that this is staged as if it's a fact. It might be, or it might not be. But as I said, the real topic here is people defending blackface.

No the context matters a lot, again like I posted on the previous page : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaapse_Klopse

It's hard to argue this doesn't have its very origins in racism, but it's also hard to argue the practice, today, is racist.

 

[Kraftwerk]

Here's an important pro-tip for anyone who decides to enter into a conversation about racism: If you're a White person, don't try to tell any person of color what isn't racist. Truth be told, you don't have the privilege of making that distinction...

I don't agree with this, and I say this as someone who has been discriminated against. It's a very unhealthy way of approaching things and instills fear into anyone who would want to have an actual discussion and educate themselves. Just because I have been discriminated against, it doesn't make me an expert or some sort of higher authority on the subject. Everyone should be able to speak their mind.

No the context matters a lot, again like I posted on the previous page : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaapse_Klopse

It's hard to argue this doesn't have its very origins in racism, but it's also hard to argue the practice, today is racist.

Im not sure how your reply has to do with what I said? I was replying to shuri because he/she said that this is staged by Kardashian.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Stop with the 'american get too offended about blackface' bullshit already. Tons of non-americans such as myself who are offended by this in this very thread.

I want to also point out that while I am currently an Official American, I wasn't always. My wife is not American, and only my immediate family lives in the US, everyone else is outside the US. I love how there are always people in these threads that assume that anyone who is offended by and arguing against things like blackface is American.

 

[soundscream]

We are past discussing that, and don't just waltz in here claiming to know that this is staged as if it's a fact. It might be, or it might not be. But as I said, the real topic here is people defending blackface.

Everything about shuris post are staged and you're falling for it.

 

[pants]

Im not sure how your reply has to do with what I said? I was replying to shuri because he/she said that this is staged by Kardashian.

'defending blackface' i.e. you think black face is automatically racist, I'd encourage you to read the link I posted.

 

[Kraftwerk]

'defending blackface' i.e. you think black face is automatically racist, I'd encourage you to read the link I posted.

Well, as you said "context matters"

In the context of this topic, it IS racist.

A person wearing blackface walks up to Kim Kardashian and yell at her " Hey its me, It's me Kanye". He is imitating a black person as a joke and laughing.

And, I promise you I will definitely read your link thoroughly. I love to educate myself. Thank you for the link.

 

[jWILL253]

Here's one of the reasons why this discussion is impossible. Tell any white foreigner living in another country in Europe that he can't possibly know what racism is. Our perspectives just differs too much. According to this thread I'm a ignorant racist coming from a extremely racist country (Italy). I get that I often have a strange way yo expressing myself. Might be because my English is shitty or I'm just a dumb racist. But now we're already getting compared to stormfront.

Still, I'm sorry if I offended the black people here.

I don't agree with this, and I say this as someone who has been discriminated against. It's a very unhealthy way of approaching things and instills fear into anyone who would want to have an actual discussion and educate themselves. Just because I have been discriminated against, it doesn't make me an expert or some sort of higher authority on the subject. Everyone should be able to speak their mind.



Im not sure how your reply has to do with what I said? I was replying to shuri because he/she said that this is staged by Kardashian.

You can't possibly know what racism is if not only you most likely haven't experienced racism, but are most likely the beneficiary from it. That's my point. It's like a straight person taking about the "gay lifestyle"; if you aren't gay, then how the fuck would you know of a particular "lifestyle" (if there even is one) outside of stereotypes?

 

[pants]

Well, as you said "context matters"

In the context of this topic, it IS racist.

A person wearing blackface walks up to Kim Kardashian and yell at her " Hey its me, It's me Kanye". He is imitating a black person as a joke and laughing.

And, I promise you I will definitely read your link thoroughly. I love to educate myself. Thank you for the link.

I 100% agree that the guy in the OP as depicted is racist. This thread has moved far beyond that though.

 

[Particle Physicist]

'defending blackface' i.e. you think black face is automatically racist, I'd encourage you to read the link I posted.

That tradition certainly began as racist. It was a day when the slaves had free and minstrel shows were performed. Looking at modern pictures, they don't seem to do blackface anymore, rather, people paint their faces in all kinds of manners/colors. It looks to me that the community took ownership of a racist tradition and made it its own thing.

Compare...

Kaapse Klopse:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Kaa...QCQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1436&bih=783#imgdii=_

Zwarte Piet:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Zwa...SWqAbU8oG4CA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1436&bih=783

 

[SapientWolf]

Americans thinking their one culture should encompass the entire earth is always so fascinating.

.

Since you're agreeing with this I'll address you both. The major difference is that, due to the actions of activists, Americans were forced into confronting these difficult racial issues head on. It was just too blatant and disgusting to ignore or sweep under the rug with multiculturalism rhetoric. But the more subtle racism can be just as, if not more harmful than the beatings, because it's far more pervasive and easier to deny. It's easy to pretend it doesn't exist, and it's something that both America and Europe will struggle with for quite some time. And let me make myself clear. Racism is real, and it's rampant in modern society on almost every landmass with people on it, and the social problems and feelings of alienation it causes are also real. In addition, pointing it out often causes others to declare that you're the racist for looking for it. It's a vicious cycle. I entreat people to try to view things through more than one perspective. No one person has a monopoly on the full spectrum of the human experience.

That said, I would use the phrase "tone deaf" rather than racist to describe what happened in the OP. Even if he has no intent to offend, the man in blackface is opening himself up to be associated with imagery and practices that I doubt he would want to be associated with. It wasn't very funny. And he didn't even look like Kanye on top of that. Plus he would have gotten more laughs trying to look like Kim than Kanye. It was a fail circus.

 

[Mononoke]

What? Are you talking to me? Did you read my posts? I don't think you quite got my point...
of course history matters.
All I was saying is that even with a different history, I'm not convinced caricaturization would ever be good, or if it would even happen.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. Just going off on a rant, sorry that wasn't aimed at you. I think your post was insightful.

EDIT: I guess it didn't make sense to quote you in that reply. My apologies.

 

[Winterfang]

'defending blackface' i.e. you think black face is automatically racist, I'd encourage you to read the link I posted.

Think? I know is racist. I'm personally not offended by it, but I know is racist.

 

[kamorra]

You can't possibly know what racism is if not only you most likely haven't experienced racism, but are most likely the beneficiary from it. That's my point. It's like a straight person taking about the "gay lifestyle"; if you aren't gay, then how the fuck would you know of a particular "lifestyle" (if there even is one) outside of stereotypes?

But I'm experiencing it for the last 36 years. How can you come to the conclusion that this is not true?

 

[pants]

That tradition certainly began as racist. Looking at modern pictures, they don't seem to do blackface anymore, rather, people paint their faces in all kinds of manners/colors. It looks to me that the community took ownership of a racist tradition and made it its own thing.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Kaa...QCQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1436&bih=783#imgdii=_

I assure you people still do the traditional blackface, but yes it started as racist but no longer is.

Think? I know is racist. I'm personally not offended by it, but I know is racist.

read the link

 

[Kraftwerk]

You can't possibly know what racism is if not only you most likely haven't experienced racism, but are most likely the beneficiary from it. That's my point. It's like a straight person taking about the "gay lifestyle"; if you aren't gay, then how the fuck would you know of a particular "lifestyle" (if there even is one) outside of stereotypes?

I said that I have been discriminated against, but you still post that I "most likely" haven't experienced it. I have been called a "sand-n*gger" multiple times. Is that enough, or should I catalogue all the incidents for you?

Also, by your logic, we should go ahead and dismiss the multitudes of studies done and books written about things such as racism and "gay lifestyle" since a lot of them weren't written by or researched by people who have experienced it. Since they have no fucking idea what they are talking about.

 

[VanquishUK]

It blows my mind that people do shit like this in their free time.

Unbelievable...

 

[ISOM]

I assure you people still do the traditional blackface, but yes it started as racist but no longer is.



read the link

Lol at it's no longer racist.

 

[Boombloxer]

This thread is an embarrassment. This was an obvious shot at Kim for her interracial marriage to Kanye. Just blatant racism from that dude.

I don't get how this isn't as plain as day.

Some of these responses are just tone-deaf. It'd be the same reaction if someone did this to Heidi Klum while she was married to Seal.

 

[royalan]

Americans thinking their one culture should encompass the entire earth is always so fascinating.

So, can you explain to me then exactly why European blackface isn't racist?

I mean, I'll wait.

 

[kingkitty]

I think we can all agree that Zwarte Piete is blackface. I mean, he has bright red lips. He has a curly afro. Going through a chimney does not make a person attain these features.

I suppose racist Zwarte was such a cool tradition in some people's childhoods, that it's hard to admit that it might actually be a little racist.

If people don't want others to think their holiday character is a depiction of a black guy, then change the skin color, or at the very least, change the afro, change the red lips. Maybe some people are against that too because they don't want their tradition changed by outside cultures.

It's like people who support the Redskins name, or support the Cleveland Indians logo. Of course it's racist, but I guess tradition is such a strong thing.

 

[Zaph]

I assure you people still do the traditional blackface, but yes it started as racist but no longer is.



read the link

Sorry, no such thing. Humanity, as a whole, hasn't fixed it's massive race issues for anyone to be saying things that were racist are no longer.

That's the same logic as Zwarte changing its origin story and then having the audacity to say everything's fine, it's no longer about race.

So, can you explain to me then exactly why European blackface isn't racist?

I mean, I'll wait.

You'll be waiting a long time. Not one of them have addressed the European countries where blackface is completely unacceptable.

 

[pants]

Lol at it's no longer racist.

Eh, there aren't white people doing this anymore, it's a black driven activity. If anything, it becomes a problem when the black community in Cape Town decides it is.

Sorry, no such thing. Humanity, as a whole, hasn't fixed it's massive race issues for anyone to be saying things that were racist are no longer.

In the case of what I linked, yes yes it has. The racial issue has for the most part been exiled.

 

[-MD-]

I forgot what a bad tv show looked like, I canceled cable like 8 years ago but this clip brought me back.

 

[jWILL253]

I said that I have been discriminated against, but you still post that I "most likely" haven't experienced it. I have been called a "sand-n*gger" multiple times. Is that enough, or should I catalogue all the incidents for you?

Also, by your logic, we should go ahead and dismiss the multitudes of studies done and books written about things such as racism and "gay lifestyle" since a lot of them weren't written by or researched by people who have experienced it. Since they have no fucking idea what they are talking about.

Ain't no scientific studies going on in this thread, though. I don't see anyone in this thread properly analyzing racism as it relates to nationality, sociology, politics, etc. All I see are a bunch of people in this thread defending some bullshit Dutch celebration and blackface in general, along with the typical racial apology that usually occurs in the OT.

The pro-tip was for them. If that doesn't apply to you, or you actually know what you're talking about, then fine...

 

[DarkFlow]

isn't there a whole holiday based around black face in Sweden?

EDIT: it was the Netherlands. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

wtf a yall doing in the Netherlands with this shit? unreal.

OT: yeah it's pretty weird he was just allowed into the event like that. some people are just ass clowns.

Only took till post 11 for Zwarte Piet to come up, that might be a new record.

 

[ISOM]

Sorry, no such thing. Humanity, as a whole, hasn't fixed it's massive race issues for anyone to be saying things that were racist are no longer.

That's the same logic as Zwarte changing its origin story and then having the audacity to say everything's fine, it's no longer about race.


You'll be waiting a long time. Not one of them have addressed the European countries where blackface is completely unacceptable.

This is what I said in this thread before. The dutch or humans in general don't have some sort of racial utopia to be saying that it isn't racist anymore.

 

[Winterfang]

You can't possibly know what racism is if not only you most likely haven't experienced racism, but are most likely the beneficiary from it. That's my point. It's like a straight person taking about the "gay lifestyle"; if you aren't gay, then how the fuck would you know of a particular "lifestyle" (if there even is one) outside of stereotypes?

I'm a half white/half black Hispanic. I've being called a nigga at least 5 times, countless times darkie, negro etc.. I'm not offended by Black Face or the N-Word. I however Know is racist and don't pretend is not because I'm not a black American.

I assure you people still do the traditional blackface, but yes it started as racist but no longer is.



read the link

I don't think you understand man, blackface is inherently racist. It doesn't matter the intentions. Painting yourself cheer black, putting big red lips and an afro is a caricature of black people and it offends a lot of people.

 

[Ingueferroque]

Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet does not mock black people or attempt to make any kind of political statement.. it is just 'honoring' the story of Sinterklaas' helpers being black-skinned. Zwarte Piet has always been portrayed as a diligent, amicable and likeable person that helped Sinterklaas.

I grew up with this, and never was it associated with any kind of negative stigma.. black and white kids/people alike had fun with it.

Maybe America should stop its gun-culture before telling other countries how to change theirs?

 

[Kraftwerk]

Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet does not mock black people or attempt to make any kind of political statement.. it is just 'honoring' the story of Sinterklaas' helpers being black-skinned.

I grew up with this, and never was it associated with any kind of negative stigma.. black and white kids/people alike had fun with it.

Maybe America should stop its gun-culture before telling other countries how to change theirs?

Hoooooly shit ;lol

 

[3Sixty]

Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet does not mock black people or attempt to make any kind of political statement.. it is just 'honoring' the story of Sinterklaas' helpers being black-skinned.

I grew up with this, and never was it associated with any kind of negative stigma.. black and white kids/people alike had fun with it.

Maybe America should stop its gun-culture before telling other countries how to change theirs?

Next you'll be telling me all cultures don't associate black people with fried chicken.

 

[Ingueferroque]

Hoooooly shit ;lol

Hoooooooly shit other countries have different views on things! My mind is blown.

Next you'll be telling me all cultures don't associate black people with fried chicken.

I only saw this line of thinking through american media, it isn't a belgian or dutch belief, at least from my years growing up there.

 

[ISOM]

Next you'll be telling me all cultures don't associate black people with fried chicken.

Painting yourself black, with big red lips and frizz hair is a lot more different than a food stereotype. Are you people really this dense?