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[mattp]

i think jeff made the conservative choice of hiring dan because gb san fran was basically a skeleton crew. i think it was smart of him to hire someone like dan(even if its slightly disappointing that it was such a safe choice) so at least for the immediate future they can get back up and running quickly with someone they're already friends with and someone that fits in with their humor
a little disappointing because having an outsider on could shake things up a bit more, but maybe theyve got some more budget for hires coming in the future where they can branch out more? who knows

 

[LeBart]

The beef was more fun when it was just angry australians insulting each other. :/

 

[Antiwhippy]

I don't think it's necessarily about this specific event so much as it is about structural inequality, this event which just so happens to make apparent still exists - not necessarily by GB hiring these duders, but perhaps moreso by the plethora of people coming out of the woodwork to say 'what are you guys complaining about' or 'they just hired the most right people for the job' or 'they're the most qualified and they're known already!'

i mean that stuff really grinds my gears

Other than the one complaining about complaining I really don't see why those can't be valid.

 

[Megasoum]

There was another one too.

 

[PBY]

While I'll acknowledge that some of the defenders may be a bit abrasive, they wouldn't be "coming out of the woodwork" if the criticism hadn't started before they did so.

I ask again - what specifically about these hires is worthy of criticism other than the fact that they are white males? If that's the only thing anyone has to criticize, it's pretty pathetic.

Nothing is. But this happens all the time in society, and the same question is raised, and you can never really show any harmful reason for isolated hires, similarly. But it accrues and accrues, and continues to perpetuate problems in an industry that has significant gender issues. So by just being more of the same, its open to criticism.

This isn't to say GB per se did anything wrong- but they didn't go out of their way to fix a prevailing problem, so a discussion is opened. Thats it.

 

[Talon]

I was answering a question from someone implying that women aren't put off from applying to games jobs. I brought up women talking about being discouraged from applying to games jobs.

You'd have to be rrrrrreally stretching to somehow assert that I was claiming that sexual harassment was the sole/biggest reason for a lack of women in games or that it meant that similar things happened at GB's hiring process.

You going to respond to this, brashnir, or ignore it?

 

[Jimmyfenix]

YES

 

[SmithnCo]

YES

Fuck yes.

 

[Backfoggen]

Looking forward to some Weird Dad Videos.

 

[Otnopolit]

You're arguing from a point of view that simply doesn't exist. I don't disagree with your point of view at all, I actually feel the same way. I just don't think arguing about the fact they could be green aliens isn't relevant really.

You're right, was trying to inject a little humor but it didn't really jive with the rest of what I was saying. But I'm glad you know what I meant and I stick by the relevant parts. It's pretty frustrating to watch this unfold.

 

[Curufinwe]

Is Dan's dad the mailman? Or was it the other guy's dad?

 

[HamPster PamPster]

Jeff hired the two people that best lived up to the job description. Period.

lol Jeff didn't even know how to say Jason's last name on the podcast. Jeff hired his friend and his friend's video producer. That's how giantbomb got started so no one should be surprised but lets not pretend the hiring process was rigorous

 

[EmCeeGramr]

You going to respond to this, brashnir, or ignore it?

Brashnir responded to it. Don't try to facilitate some kind of fight.

 

[Scizzy]

I think what the "they hired the best people for the job" side misses is that those of us who are a bit disappointed in the hires aren't primarily arguing that this will redress the imbalances in game journalism, that it's the "right" thing to do, or anything like that. More diverse perspectives and different voices would make their content better and more entertaining and that would benefit us as fans. But, as others have said, I'm sure that Dan and Jason will do a great job and this isn't anything more than a missed opportunity. There will be other chances in the future.

 

[Brashnir]

Nothing is. But this happens all the time in society, and the same question is raised, and you can never really show any harmful reason for isolated hires, similarly. But it accrues and accrues, and continues to perpetuate problems in an industry that has significant gender issues. So by just being more of the same, its open to criticism.

This isn't to say GB per se did anything wrong- but they didn't go out of their way to fix a prevailing problem, so a discussion is opened. Thats it.

"You didn't do anything wrong, but I'm going to drag you through the mud because someone else did before anyway because reasons."

Is that really all anyone has here? I mean, I don't want to be the "Jesus, STFU" guy, but Jesus....

 

[GitarooMan]

The thing I'm a little confused about is the approach by some people. I think it's just my dislike of the Twitter form in general, but bunches of snide remarks from several people over the last 24 hours just come across as a lot of bitterness, even though I think it's more just some frustration. The topic is valid, but Twitter is, as usual, a terrible venue for discussions like this, and IMO makes people's points so much weaker than they very likely are. It's also strange that this is all flowing out at a very small group that basically has two editors in SF until yesterday, so it all seems very disproportionate.

 

[Jimmyfenix]

I wonder if Paul likes Miku.

 

[Jintor]

I ask again - what specifically about these hires is worthy of criticism other than the fact that they are white males? If that's the only thing anyone has to criticize, it's pretty pathetic.

Do you need them to be monsters/crap at their jobs/otherwise negative for the homogeneity charge to stick? Whatever way you slice it, GB is a bunch of white dudes in a games media landscape that is majority white dudes. People being disappointed they're not black dudes or woman dudettes or gay dudes or whatever, in terms of seeing their own or more diverse perspectives reflected by this specific group of people, is legitimate discussion. Whether you think it pathetic or not

 

[Dragon]

You're right, was trying to inject a little humor but it didn't really jive with the rest of what I was saying. But I'm glad you know what I meant and I stick by the relevant parts. It's pretty frustrating to watch this unfold.

Totally man. I think as long as we continue to discuss it without personally pointing out or attacking anyone in the press or in the thread we'll be okay. I'm frustrated that this isn't a happier day because I think we all want the best for the site and someone like Dan certainly being around can't do anything but help the SF duders.

Do you need them to be monsters/crap at their jobs/otherwise negative for the homogeneity charge to stick? Whatever way you slice it, GB is a bunch of white dudes in a games media landscape that is majority white dudes. People being disappointed they're not black dudes or woman dudettes or gay dudes or whatever, in terms of seeing their own or more diverse perspectives reflected by this specific group of people, is legitimate discussion. Whether you think it pathetic or not

Just curious, it sounds like you're arguing for programs like Affirmative Action and the Rooney Rule in the NFL. Two things that I don't think always work, especially the latter.

 

[Curufinwe]

lol Jeff didn't even know how to say Jason's last name on the podcast. Jeff hired his friend and his friend's video producer. That's how giantbomb got started so no one should be surprised but lets not pretend the hiring process was rigorous

Jeff checking the pronunciation of his name has nothing to do with that. You think Jeff didn't watch any of the content he produced for GI?

 

[hamchan]

I don't want to backseat mod, but people should recall that earlier EmCee declared it a thread rule that you shouldn't post Tweets and the like for the sole purpose of disparaging a person.

Leigh's tweet post is related to the (heated) discussion that is happening in this thread right now though. It's also hard to prove anyone posting the tweet has the intent of just wanting to see everyone gang up on Leigh.

 

[PBY]

"You didn't do anything wrong, but I'm going to drag you through the mud because someone else did before anyway because reasons."

Is that really all anyone has here? I mean, I don't want to be the "Jesus, STFU" guy, but Jesus....

Who's dragging GB through the mud? Some people are disappointed. It opens the door for a productive discussion.

Why are you so entrenched on a defensive stance that really has no productive outcome?

 

[Megasoum]

Is Dan's dad the mailman? Or was it the other guy's dad?

Yes it's Dan's Dad... That's why we need him to do the Stamp.com ads lol

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Leigh's tweet post is related to the (heated) discussion that is happening in this thread right now though. It's also hard to prove anyone posting the tweet has the intent of just wanting to see everyone gang up on Leigh.

No, not really.

 

[Myggen]

Is Dan's dad the mailman? Or was it the other guy's dad?

That's Dan's dad, yeah. Those GI videos are all pretty great.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I think one thing people are overlooking is that they say that this won't help the game journalism industry grow, but here's the thing: it's not growing. There are no new major sites with exciting, new talents, just a reshuffling of the veterans who have done this for awhile.

Thing is that the game journalism industry is undeniably shrinking. All the new stuff are coming out from either youtube, twitch or the publisher's/developer's own PR, which also features a number of those industry veterans. The new exciting talents aren't making their own websites as the main way to access them, they're using youtube and twitch.

This is just a sign of a industry that is stagnating and growing even more insular, and I don't think that it's going to stop.

 

[Spaghetti]

the last ten pages of this thread have been real weird.

 

[SummitAve]

That's low, if true. Wow..

Ageism is fine, apparently.

Well, one of the positions was for a senior editor wasn't it? Of course they are gonna be "old". For somebody to be considered "senior" they would need to have some years of experience dating back to a time when the industry was even more of a barren wasteland of men. Senior editor really narrows the field of potential hires. Giant bomb has also been adamant about keeping a low overhead so they can't really afford to bring in new and fresh to train because that costs time and money.

If people have serious concerns about these new hires it should be directed at CBSi and the state of California which governs whatever hiring/diversity laws that exist for the state.

 

[Jintor]

Other than the one complaining about complaining I really don't see why those can't be valid.

that's the beautiful, twisted thing about this debate. At the micro level the decision is perfectly reasonable and makes total sense.

 

[Patryn]

I knew it was probably going to be bad for whoever was hired, but I didn't expect things to be this bad this quick.

I hope Dan and Jason aren't too discouraged about all this negativity swirling around and realize that it's not directed at them personally.

Then again, maybe it's good that they get a taste of how fanatical the GB audience can be.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

lol Jeff didn't even know how to say Jason's last name on the podcast. Jeff hired his friend and his friend's video producer. That's how giantbomb got started so no one should be surprised but lets not pretend the hiring process was rigorous

Dunno if you can deduce all that with that.

 

[Zornack]

I think what the "they hired the best people for the job" side misses is that those of us who are a bit disappointed in the hires aren't primarily arguing that this will redress the imbalances in game journalism, that it's the "right" thing to do, or anything like that. More diverse perspectives and different voices would make their content better and more entertaining and that would benefit us as fans. But, as others have said, I'm sure that Dan and Jason will do a great job and this isn't anything more than a missed opportunity. There will be other chances in the future.

And I agree with you. I think that a more diverse Giant Bomb is an important thing.

But I think the MOST important thing is for Jeff to hire who he thinks is the best for the job, no holds barred, an that is Dan and Jason. Every other white/black/latino/man/woman/asian/etc. would be, in Jeff's eyes, worse for some reason or another, or he'd have hired them instead.

 

[Wereroku]

Why do you put it on the women though? Why are they less interested? There has to be a reason for that.

Can people just not be interested in things. Also there are biological differences in the brains of men and women that effect things like math aptitude and physical responses to stimuli so couldn't enjoyment of a video game be effected as well. Really though I think it is a combination of boys club mentality and just women being less interested in video games in general so the population skew is always going to be mostly male.

Edit:

I am an idiot and wrong sorry.

 

[BearPawB]

The thing I'm a little confused about is the approach by some people. I think it's just my dislike of the Twitter form in general, but bunches of snide remarks from several people over the last 24 hours just come across as a lot of bitterness, even though I think it's more just some frustration. The topic is valid, but Twitter is, as usual, a terrible venue for discussions like this, and IMO makes people's points so much weaker than they very likely are. It's also strange that this is all flowing out at a very small group that basically has two editors in SF until yesterday, so it all seems very disproportionate.

This is the biggest problem. It isn't a dialogue. It's a bunch of snide remarks and shots.

I think it's an interesting and important talking point. But rather than making reasoned posts, some people are just lashing out. So of course people are going to respond defensively.

It's a bad cycle

 

[hamchan]

No, not really.

Well, yes, yes really.

Unless the person makes a harsh comment to accompany the tweet.

 

[Jintor]

now i'm reading old supreme court decisions on reverse discrimination send help i've fallen and i can't get up

 

[Dragon]

Can people just not be interested in things. Also there are biological differences in the brains of men and women that effect things like math aptitude and physical responses to stimuli so couldn't enjoyment of a video game be effected as well. Really though I think it a combination of boys club mentality and just women being less interested in video games in general.

Do you have evidence on the math aptitude side? Because it seems pretty offensive at first glance without it.

 

[PBY]

Can people just not be interested in things. Also there are biological differences in the brains of men and women that effect things like math aptitude and physical responses to stimuli so couldn't enjoyment of a video game be effected as well. Really though I think it is a combination of boys club mentality and just women being less interested in video games in general so the population skew is always going to be mostly male.

wowwwwwwwww

 

[LeBart]

lol Jeff didn't even know how to say Jason's last name on the podcast. Jeff hired his friend and his friend's video producer. That's how giantbomb got started so no one should be surprised but lets not pretend the hiring process was rigorous

Let's not pretend that them being friendly with the team was the only criterion either.
If you look at Dan's previous work, he's pretty much the perfect fit for Giant Bomb.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

lol Jeff didn't even know how to say Jason's last name on the podcast.

Flawless logic

Do you have evidence on the math aptitude side? Because it seems pretty offensive at first glance without it.

I definitely heard this before, though I don't know if it's just a stereotype or actual science. I'm not even sure if it matters, even if women are generally less interested in video games the hostile atmosphere against them certainly doesn't help the ones who care.

 

[Jintor]

Just curious, it sounds like you're arguing for programs like Affirmative Action and the Rooney Rule in the NFL. Two things that I don't think always work, especially the latter.

I don't know shit about the NFL, but generally speaking re: aa, it doesn't always work but it sure as shit works better than simply leaving the problem to self-perpetuate

of course, that said, gb being what gb is, i don't want to jump to 'quotas' or something like that

 

[Megasoum]

I knew it was probably going to be bad for whoever was hired, but I didn't expect things to be this bad this quick.

I hope Dan and Jason aren't too discouraged about all this negativity swirling around and realize that it's not directed at them personally.

Then again, maybe it's good that they get a taste of how fanatical the GB audience can be.

The thing is, people expected to be a backlash based on the fact they they wouldn't like the new hires. It's not really the case here, no matter what you think on the matter, most people (me included) love the new hires.

 

[Curufinwe]

Jason knew about and likes Legend of Korra, so the anime editor position might be up for grabs.

 

[BearPawB]

Do you have evidence on the math aptitude side? Because it seems pretty offensive at first glance without it.

Yeah that's complete bs. It has to do with how our society tells young girls they are bad at math so they don't invest in it, believing they will be bad.

Women's brains are just as capable as mens

 

[Keyser Soze]

Vinny's Dad and Dan's Dad.
Google Hangout QnA Live Show
Late Night Every Wednesday

BOOK IT!

 

[Otnopolit]

Flawless logic

Doesn't that "point" just counter the argument itself?

 

[Mesoian]

I think one thing people are overlooking is that they say that this won't help the game journalism industry grow, but here's the thing: it's not growing. There are no new major sites with exciting, new talents, just a reshuffling of the veterans who have done this for awhile.

Thing is that the game journalism industry is undeniably shrinking. All the new stuff are coming out from either youtube, twitch or the publisher's/developer's own PR, which also features a number of those industry veterans. The new exciting talents aren't making their own websites as the main way to access them, they're using youtube and twitch.

This is just a sign of a industry that is stagnating and growing even more insular, and I don't think that it's going to stop.

If anything, it's shrinking, changing into a more personality driven enterprise where the usual standards of journalistic norms don't apply. Jeff has said plenty of times on his Mixlr streams that the world of Games Journalism isn't sustainable, especially with stuff like twitch and youtube celebrities often doing as good or better of a job as sites like Kotaku or IGN, and many of them are doing it for free.

It's going to get to a point where up and coming gamers identify more with people like Egorapter or PewdiPie than anyone on staff at IGN or Gamespot, and that's where their attention and money will go.

It's just...evolution. Or de-evolution depending on how you see it. Giantbomb stays ahead of the curve by being so personality driven, all we can hope is that such a thing can hold out.

 

[Myggen]

Okay, this isn't gonna end very well if we're going to go into "biological differences between men and women" here.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I only want that the new guys like games that usually going under the radar with the usual staff.

 

[daydream]

I knew it was probably going to be bad for whoever was hired, but I didn't expect things to be this bad this quick.

I hope Dan and Jason aren't too discouraged about all this negativity swirling around and realize that it's not directed at them personally.

Then again, maybe it's good that they get a taste of how fanatical the GB audience can be.

Bolded part is meaningless, unless you're referring to EVERYONE who watches GB including industry figures who are now attacking it.