David Cage's games get attacked for "no gameplay" yet LucasArts games are worshipped

fvng

fvng

Member
Cage's games consistently get attacked for being interactive movies without any real gameplay, but I often see these same critics turn around and fawn over 90s adventure games like Grim Fandango.. The reality is classic adventure games from LucasArts were essentially interactive movies with no twitch gameplay..

(referring specifically to the classic LucasArts games I grew up with (Monkey Island, Loom, Day of the Tentacle, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango)

Frankly, the only difference between classic games like these and David Cage games is the AAA graphics. If Heavy Rain or Beyond came out in the 90s, they would have certainly been pixel based adventure games. I don't understand how any gamer who loved those old games can reconcile that with complaints about Cage's games "lacking gameplay"

(thread is about complaints about gameplay, not quality of story or storytelling)
 
It's because Cage is a really bad writer. When you have no gameplay, you must at least have a good story/characters.

LucasArts games are well written, that's why they're worshipped, even if there's no "real" gameplay.

(Edited)
 
I would argue that there is something to be said for the fact that you could probably largely set your own pace in older titles through clicking etc versus always being alert for the next prompt in Heavy Rain.
 
I agree with you. I think the criticism that Cage's games elicits generally stem from people who are too young to have enjoyed the golden age of adventure games. If these same people heap praise on games like Grim Fandango, Full Throttle, Maniac Mansion, etc., I suspect that it's just lip service from people who haven't actually played them.
 
QTE vs Puzzle solving

Yeah, no.

Also Cage games don't have the best writing and are always being compared to movies, which I can't say the same for Grim Fandango.
 
Well, I guess its the fact that the gameplay in the LucasArt's adventure games are more compelling in comparison to Heavy Rain and/or Beyond Two Souls.

In the Cage games, the gameplay looks to be very simple, almost Dragons Lair-like (with everything just being the character interacting with the environment/story). With the adventure games, you had much more control of your character and really had to use your brain at times (considering the many puzzles you had to solve in said games).

So, on a pure gameplay only level, the LucasArt's adventure games are viewed better due to having more control of the character and world.
 
LucasArts Adventure games are a) better written than anything Cage has ever created and b) offer more gameplay with puzzle solving, item/NPC experimenting and exploration.
 
Here's a shocking revelation -- maybe the people criticizing David Cage games are not the same people that love Lucasarts adventure games!
 
The LucasArts games weren't on rails though. They were full of puzzles in that you would really have to think to work out how to proceed. Cage's games are essentially interactive films with multiple story branches.

That said, I like both.
 
dream said:
I agree with you. I think the criticism that Cage's games elicits generally stem from people who are too young to have enjoyed the golden age of adventure games. If these same people heap praise on games like Grim Fandango, Full Throttle, Maniac Mansion, etc., I suspect that it's just lip service from people who haven't actually played them.
Click to expand...

I'm sure many will agree with me in disagreeing with you. I enjoyed Monkey Island, Grim Fandango, the Mist games and hated Heavy Rain. Puzzle solving is well done in those games, not in Heavy Rain, plus all the QTE crap thrown at you is nauseating.
 
So you think the Professor Layton games aren't actual games too?

The LucasArts games had tons of gameplay in the form of puzzles. David Cage's games amount to pressing a button.
 
Classic LucasArts adventure titles are not in the same vein as QD games. Not even close.

And the former had vastly better writing. It's not even close.
 
You can't separate the story from the games though. Comedy was a pretty huge bandaid on some of those older games. If Full Throttle tried to take itself as seriously as Heavy Rain it would have gotten a much more mixed reaction. People remember the funny parts, not necessarily the dull parts in between. Meanwhile, Heavy Rain was 90 percent dull.
 
Adventure point and click games are not QTE movie simulators. One has enjoyable puzzles and interactions, the other has a frustrating mess of unlikeable characters and muddled controls.
 
Heavy Rain or Beyond aren't adventures like Monkey Island or Grim Fandango...they are interactive movies with no puzzles.
You can compare the David Cages games with Dragons Laire or something like that.
 
dream said:
I agree with you. I think the criticism that Cage's games elicits generally stem from people who are too young to have enjoyed the golden age of adventure games. If these same people heap praise on games like Grim Fandango, Full Throttle, Maniac Mansion, etc., I suspect that it's just lip service from people who haven't actually played them.
Click to expand...

There's more interactivity and freedom in something like Maniac Mansion than any of David Cage's games.

I kinda grew out of adventure games mostly because they felt too limited but the games David Cage made are on another level.
 
dream said:
I agree with you. I think the criticism that Cage's games elicits generally stem from people who are too young to have enjoyed the golden age of adventure games. If these same people heap praise on games like Grim Fandango, Full Throttle, Maniac Mansion, etc., I suspect that it's just lip service from people who haven't actually played them.
Click to expand...

you think wrong, I'm afraid
 
You should play Indigo Prophecy / Fahrenheit.

There are entire gameplay sequences which are pressing in different directions on the analog sticks while there is dialogue being spoken to you by a shadowy cabal.

http://youtu.be/KPUXYpKJoMA?t=8m45s

There is no correlation between what is going on on the screen and the directions you are pressing, you are just pressing arbitrary directions so that the game knows you are still there.

Fuck that game. It is the worst thing I have ever played.
 
fvng said:
(thread is about complaints about gameplay, not quality of story or storytelling)
Click to expand...

But thats the difference between them. If you have humour, good characters and an entertaining story then a lack of gameplay can be overlooked. It's one of the reasons telltales games don't get as much flak as Cages.
 
Cage's games are basically interactive visual novels while LucasArts games still require you to beat them.

The difference in the writing also doesn't help.
 
it's been awhile since i've played heavy rain, and i've tried to purge it from my memory, but if i recall correctly the "puzzle solving" in it usually just was finding an item in an investigation area and then it triggers an event. lucasarts puzzles were way more involved and "gameplay oriented".

i think they're both examples of games, though... neither type is a game i particularly want to play, however.
 
RK128 said:
Well, I guess its the fact that the gameplay in the LucasArt's adventure games are more compelling in comparison to Heavy Rain and/or Beyond Two Souls.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say that classic adventure gameplay was 'compelling', the story kept you engaged in the game, but it certainly wasn't the gameplay. the puzzles were fun though

In the Cage games, the gameplay looks to be very simple, almost Dragons Lair-like (with everything just being the character interacting with the environment/story). With the adventure games, you had much more control of your character and really had to use your brain at times (considering the many puzzles you had to solve in said games).
Click to expand...

Those dragon's lair segments are twitch gameplay though (or at least as close as it gets) it might not be spectacular Platinum Games level twitch gameplay, but it's still gameplay.

kewlmyc said:
QTE vs Puzzle solving
Click to expand...

right right, QTEs are only acceptable when it's coming from GAF cult favorite Shenmue.
 
It boggles me that someone equates the experience of going ,say, through Indiana Jones and the fate of Atlantis with Indigo Prophecy

fvng said:
I wouldn't say that classic adventure gameplay was 'compelling', the story kept you engaged in the game, but it certainly wasn't the gameplay.

Right right, QTEs are only acceptable when it's coming from GAF cult favorite Shenmue.
Click to expand...

Good puzzles can actually add a lot to the experience. Something that encourages critical thinking and exploration. Obtuse ones and 'click every item at every pixel', less so.

Also, QTEs are not the same everywhere. When it is essentially the only means you interact with the game, it is a problem.
A fight scene in Heavy rain is 50+ inputs to watch a small movie unfold. In Shenmue, you actually battle and then qte inputs that match the actual moves may pop up. Qtes to do unique actions that actual manual control of the character cannot do in most circumstances may pop up.


So yeah, to sum it up:
Gameplay in Cage games is trash and does not match good adventure games by any means. Execution matters
 
Wait, so only mechanically driven games have gameplay?

I'm assuming you've never actually played any of those games you list, because to make the comparison like this, and assume they're equals is odd. I'm not against David Cage's games, I didn't play Beyond, but I didn't hate Heavy Rain, I think it's great if games like that exist, they don't negatively affect the industry in anyway. It's just a different kind of game or use of the medium.
 
David Cage's games get attacked because people are insecure and think if his vision of games succeeds all their favourite types of games will disappear.
 
Eh, LucasArts games have puzzles. Puzzles = gameplay.

A better comparison would be comparing Telltale's games to Cage's games.
 
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