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[Yazan]

In April, a unity government was formed between the PA and Hamas. Netanyahu was enraged by the unity government - and he called the US and EU to break relations with the unity government. Surprisingly, the US said no - that they would give the unity government time and see if it works or not. The EU said the same. Angered, Netanyahu was determined to break up the unity government. The 3 kids that were abducted was used as pretext, though there was no evidence of Hamas involvement. The pretext was to go into the West Bank, attack Hamas, arrest 700 members of Hamas, blow up 2 homes, carry on their ransackings, and to try to evoke a reaction from Hamas. An Israeli political scientist, Avner Maniv calls these offensives, "Palestinian Peace Offenses" - whenever the Palestinians seemed like they tried to reach a settlement of the conflict (which the unity gov't was) at that point, Israel does everything it can to provoke a violent reaction from Hamas, who use force as a way to get international attention, and Israel has its pretext. And when the reaction comes, Israel can claim that they can't deal with these people, because they're terrorists. Hamas does some pretty despicable things, but I can see the frustration and hopelessness.

Perfect summary

 

[PeskyToaster]

It's incredibly difficult to root out a guerilla (by this I mean not a standing, conventional army) force that's embedded into the civilian population and it's impossible to not have civilian casualties in any sort of invasion. But that's not an excuse to disregard civilian casualties.

Defeating revolutionaries/terrorists/freedom fighters is something conventional militaries have struggled with for a long time. I've been listening to The American Peril episode of Hardcore History and Dan brought up a quote by Mao Zedong about how guerillas are fish and the people are the ocean. Most attempts to defeat these embedded forces can be described as 'draining the ocean' with devastating results for the civilian population.

I don't think Hamas or the Israeli government have their people's best interests at heart in this matter or they would be more willing to come to terms. No winners here.

 

[werks]

Thank you, this is very interesting.

However it does not prove that Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exists (or even jews), it just says that some of Hamas's leaders say some parts of it's charter "is up for interpretation".

In fact, the last link you supplied even claims that (article 7) -

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

Sadly the mentality of these people who support Hamas seems very like-minded and violent. They brainwash their children for hatred through kid shows -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3OYjKZ2Cu8

Patah on the other hand already publicly announced that it is willing to recognize Israel's right to exist and to negotiate a peace treaty.

I hope both side eventually come to the recognition that this is the only solution but days like this leave me very skeptic .

The Israeli Government's official position is to ethnically cleanse Gaza. I'm not sure what more needs to be said.

On the eve of Abu Khudair’s lynching, Member of Knesset (Israel’s parliament) and government faction whip Ayelet Shaked issued a call over Facebook to ethnically cleanse the land, declaring “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy.” She advocated their complete destruction, “including its elderly and its women,” adding that these must be slaughtered, otherwise they might give birth to more “little snakes.”

“After the IDF completes the ‘softening’ of the targets with its firepower, the IDF will conquer the entire Gaza, using all the means necessary to minimize any harm to our soldiers, with no other considerations,” Feiglin writes in one of several calls for outright war crimes.

Following the reconquest, Israel’s army “will thoroughly eliminate all armed enemies from Gaza. The enemy population that is innocent of wrongdoing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave,” Feiglin writes.

“Gaza is part of our Land and we will remain there forever,” Feiglin concludes. “Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews. This will also serve to ease the housing crisis in Israel.”

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Sometimes submission is the answer. This is not a war they can win.

Of course it isn't. How many battles did the Vietcong win? This isn't was war between two armies, this is a resistance movement against an oppressing force. The goal is to bloody the nose of Israel. Like how Isreal was set back during their campaign in Southern Lebanon.

 

[Slurpy2k20]

But didn't this all come about because of years of simmering violence inflicted by Hamas and it's supporters that eventually culminated in the the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teens?

If none of that happened would Israel really have started these bombardments and ground offensives?

For arguments sake, so you believe slaughtering 400+, injuring tens of thousands, and displacing 50,000+ people is a justifiable response to 3 dead Israelis?

Also, has Israel offered even a shred of evidence that Hamas was behind this? Hamas has denied that, and a recovered audio recording seemed to have the kidnappers speaking hebrew. I'm not saying I know WHO it was, but it's interesting that all Israel has to do is blame Hamas, without providing a lick of evidence, and use that as a pretext for this carnage. Then we have people like you who take that accusation as fact, without a second though.

A Palestinian in Israel was burned alive by Israelis by being force-fed gasoline, because palestinians were blamed for those deaths. Of course, in your mind, no retribution for that is justified.

 

[Orenhy]

I don't see why they can't be taken separately. Perhaps if the West Bank saw some sort of relief it would give Hamas or the people of Gaza some incentive. As it stands now both methods seem to end in the same hopeless situation for the people stuck in Palestine.

Dude, its the same nation even if they dont have territorial continuity, PLO would not even imagine to go that way.

 

[nib95]

In April, a unity government was formed between the PA and Hamas. Netanyahu was enraged by the unity government - and he called the US and EU to break relations with the unity government. Surprisingly, the US said no - that they would give the unity government time and see if it works or not. The EU said the same. Angered, Netanyahu was determined to break up the unity government. The 3 kids that were abducted was used as pretext, though there was no evidence of Hamas involvement. The pretext was to go into the West Bank, attack Hamas, arrest 700 members of Hamas, blow up 2 homes, carry on their ransackings, and to try to evoke a reaction from Hamas. An Israeli political scientist, Avner Maniv calls these offensives, "Palestinian Peace Offenses" - whenever the Palestinians seemed like they tried to reach a settlement of the conflict (which the unity gov't was) at that point, Israel does everything it can to provoke a violent reaction from Hamas, who use force as a way to get international attention, and Israel has its pretext. And when the reaction comes, Israel can claim that they can't deal with these people, because they're terrorists. Hamas does some pretty despicable things, but I can see the frustration and hopelessness.

Yeap. I've heard several political scientists etc say that the Palestinian Unity government was the main precursor to this new bout of Israeli aggression.

Similar in November 2012, where Israel broke the ceasefire and initiatived another offensive, it was just a few weeks before the UN vote on Palestinian Observer Statehood, which Israel, unsurprisingly also vehemently rejected.

 

[Pilgor]

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying the JIDF don't exist and are you claiming the image posted isn't official propaganda?

Are we not allowed to even mention the JIDF's existence or perhaps question if someone uses official propaganda and generally holds a view/opinion that Israel do no wrong no matter what the situation is perhaps associated with that organisation?

I'm also not sure how either of these is suggesting I'm trying to justify Hamas or questioning the basic tenets of democracy.

Hamas has issued a social-media activist awareness campaign, aimed at guiding pro-Palestinian Twitter and Facebook content.

You can watch the video here: إلى نشطاء الفيسبوك ... انتبهوا وخليكم واعيين !!!

An English translation of the video is available here.

I suppose then, by your logic, anyone who expresses a pro-Pelestinian view/opinion could be associated with Hamas.

Thank you, this is very interesting.

However it does not prove that Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exists (or even jews), it just says that some of Hamas's leaders say some parts of it's charter "is up for interpretation".

In fact, the last link you supplied even claims that (article 7) -

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

Sadly the mentality of these people who support Hamas seems very like-minded and violent. They brainwash their children for hatred through kid shows -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3OYjKZ2Cu8

Patah on the other hand already publicly announced that it is willing to recognize Israel's right to exist and to negotiate a peace treaty.

I hope both side eventually come to the recognition that this is the only solution but days like this leave me very skeptic .

I agree. The argument that Hamas "no longer abide by that charter" is misleading and is used to legitimize Hamas.

 

[SniperHunter]

Looks like 13 Israeli soldiers were kiled in an intense ambush.

 

[ironcreed]

Just unbelievable. They are packed in like sardines with nowhere to go and are being told to evacuate while being absolutely blitzkrieged. There is no justification for such collective punishment on innocent people. It's like carpet bombing Milwaukee for the acts of Jeffree Dahmer.

 

[werks]

The rocket attacks and kidnappings can't even be considered fighting at this point. Just a child flailing in tantrum before being spanked.

It's gross that the fighting is this lopsided. It's just baffling that they still condone these provocations knowing what the retaliation will be.



Sometimes submission is the answer. This is not a war they can win.

Submit to what? Ethnic cleansing?

 

[David H Wong]

As an addendum to my last post, I think this has crossed the line to ethnic cleansing. Palestinians mass murdered for no other reason than being Palestinians.

So knowing what you know about Israel's military capabilities, including nuclear weapons, you think 60 deaths is an "ethnic cleansing"? If their goal was truly to exterminate every Palestinian I'm thinking it would look just a tiny bit different than this.

For instance, I don't think it would involve warning civilians to evacuate beforehand, or firing warning shots on buildings before bombing them.

That doesn't mean this action is right - it's more complicated than that - but let's not be silly here. It's like the George Zimmerman threads where they can't just call the guy a trigger-happy dumbass, he has to become a genocidal racist maniac out to exterminate every black kid he saw. We don't have to turn everybody into a cartoon villain.

 

[Codeblue]

Dude, its the same nation even if they dont have territorial continuity, PLO would not even imagine to go that way.

Does Israel even recognize them as a nation (honest question)?

I don't mean splitting Palestine into two entities. I'm mean treating the faction that cooperates with you well instead of treating everyone poorly. I'm certain the PLO wouldn't turn down a halt to the settlements.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

In April, a unity government was formed between the PA and Hamas. Netanyahu was enraged by the unity government - and he called the US and EU to break relations with the unity government. Surprisingly, the US said no - that they would give the unity government time and see if it works or not. The EU said the same. Angered, Netanyahu was determined to break up the unity government. The 3 kids that were abducted was used as pretext, though there was no evidence of Hamas involvement. The pretext was to go into the West Bank, attack Hamas, arrest 700 members of Hamas, blow up 2 homes, carry on their ransackings, and to try to evoke a reaction from Hamas. An Israeli political scientist, Avner Yaniv calls these offensives, "Palestinian Peace Offenses" - whenever the Palestinians seemed like they tried to reach a settlement of the conflict (which the unity gov't was) at that point, Israel does everything it can to provoke a violent reaction from Hamas, who use force as a way to get international attention, and Israel has its pretext. And when the reaction comes, Israel can claim that they can't deal with these people, because they're terrorists. Hamas does some pretty despicable things, but I can see the frustration and hopelessness.

Great post.

 

[ironcreed]

The Israeli Government's official position is to ethnically cleanse Gaza. I'm not sure what more needs to be said.

Sounds like some master race bullshit to me. Incredible.

 

[Tesseract]

clinton pretty much nailed it in that ndtv interview

 

[Spacecowboy77]

The Israeli Government's official position is to ethnically cleanse Gaza. I'm not sure what more needs to be said.

Both Ayelet Shaked and Feiglin are hardcore, extremist, right-wing psychos and by no mean represents the Israeli government.

I can find countless examples on the Palestinian side that recount the same poison and worse.

 

[Metaroo]

Sounds like some master race bullshit to me. Incredible.

"Ethnic Cleansing" arguments aside, theres very few ways to describe this situation in a positive light. Can we really call this defense? Where is the diplomacy (from BOTH sides, obviously)?

 

[RustyNails]

"Sometimes submission is the answer"

Said no freedom movement, ever.

 

[nib95]

Hamas has issued a social-media activist awareness campaign, aimed at guiding pro-Palestinian Twitter and Facebook content.

You can watch the video here: إلى نشطاء الفيسبوك ... انتبهوا وخليكم واعيين !!!

An English translation of the video is available here.

I suppose then, by your logic, anyone who expresses a pro-Pelestinian view/opinion could be associated with Hamas.

Yea, asking people for their support and paying your students $2000 each for doing it, not quite the same thing.

Side note, is this source/translation legitimate?

You routinely use MEMRI as a source (like for the translation link here), a known propaganda tool, criticised by many (journalists and political scientists alike) for its misleading tact, and founded by right wing zionists (by their own admission) including ex Israeli intelligence.

I saw on the previous page you posted a link from The Blaze. You do realise this is a site owned by Glenn Beck? Another right wing hack, and another source that is unreliable and pushing it's own slanted narrative.

Like I said earlier, please try and find better sources for these news pieces if you want to be taken more seriously.

 

[RustyNails]

clinton pretty much nailed it in that ndtv interview

Link, summary, receipts etc

 

[Pilgor]

The Israeli Government's official position is to ethnically cleanse Gaza. I'm not sure what more needs to be said.

Sounds like some master race bullshit to me. Incredible.

MK Ayelet Shaked Exposes Daily Beast Reporter’s Deliberate Distortions

I refer specifically to “Daily Beast” writer Gideon Resnick, who so misrepresented the facts in one of my recent Facebook posts, one has to wonder if his hatred for my country hasn’t rendered him outright useless to his website and his readers.

In a story headlined “Israeli Politician Declares War on the Palestinian People,” Resnick actually suggested I compared Palestinian children to “little snakes,” and accused me of fomenting Palestinian genocide. This vilification was later picked up by several bloggers and reporters, all of whom were convinced of this frightening notion, without even a scrap of fact or truth.

On the other hand, the Palestinian Government's official position is to ethnically cleanse Israel.

 

[werks]

Both Ayelet Shaked and Feiglin are hardcore, extremist, right-wing psychos and by no mean represents the Israeli government.

I can find countless examples on the Palestinian side that recount the same poison and worse.

So in essence, Israel is no more legitimate than Hamas. And all their claims of being a first world western democracy is bullshit.

The only difference is that Israel is in the process of cleansing Gaza.

 

[3bdelilah]

I haven't read all pages in this thread, but is there seriously a person here on GAF that is defending what Israel is doing? A global looks tells me a lot of you condemn these actions, not too surprised since people are supposed to be above average intelligent, but I'm curious nonetheless. If the US didn't back Israel, this shit would've stopped a looooooong time ago. But there's something that every country in the world makes them shit about the US.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

In April, a unity government was formed between the PA and Hamas. Netanyahu was enraged by the unity government - and he called the US and EU to break relations with the unity government. Surprisingly, the US said no - that they would give the unity government time and see if it works or not. The EU said the same. Angered, Netanyahu was determined to break up the unity government. The 3 kids that were abducted was used as pretext, though there was no evidence of Hamas involvement. The pretext was to go into the West Bank, attack Hamas, arrest 700 members of Hamas, blow up 2 homes, carry on their ransackings, and to try to evoke a reaction from Hamas. An Israeli political scientist, Avner Yaniv calls these offensives, "Palestinian Peace Offenses" - whenever the Palestinians seemed like they tried to reach a settlement of the conflict (which the unity gov't was) at that point, Israel does everything it can to provoke a violent reaction from Hamas, who use force as a way to get international attention, and Israel has its pretext. And when the reaction comes, Israel can claim that they can't deal with these people, because they're terrorists. Hamas does some pretty despicable things, but I can see the frustration and hopelessness.

This explanation seems reasonable and logical.

 

[RK9039]

In April, a unity government was formed between the PA and Hamas. Netanyahu was enraged by the unity government - and he called the US and EU to break relations with the unity government. Surprisingly, the US said no - that they would give the unity government time and see if it works or not. The EU said the same. Angered, Netanyahu was determined to break up the unity government. The 3 kids that were abducted was used as pretext, though there was no evidence of Hamas involvement. The pretext was to go into the West Bank, attack Hamas, arrest 700 members of Hamas, blow up 2 homes, carry on their ransackings, and to try to evoke a reaction from Hamas. An Israeli political scientist, Avner Yaniv calls these offensives, "Palestinian Peace Offenses" - whenever the Palestinians seemed like they tried to reach a settlement of the conflict (which the unity gov't was) at that point, Israel does everything it can to provoke a violent reaction from Hamas, who use force as a way to get international attention, and Israel has its pretext. And when the reaction comes, Israel can claim that they can't deal with these people, because they're terrorists. Hamas does some pretty despicable things, but I can see the frustration and hopelessness.

+1, good summary.

 

[Quotient]

Oh, give me a fucking break, with using this tired, intellectually dishonest excuse to justify the slaughter that's going on now, and purposely leaving out all context.

<SNIP>

I was commenting on the likely hood that Hamas's change of heart is believed by Israel and foreign governments. You argue I am taking it out of context, sounds more like you took my comment to mean something else and ran with it. As it stands Hamas has to prove to Israel that it is trustworthy and willing to truly negotiate, as i have mentioned before i'm not sure this current conflict is helping them in that regard - right now it has strengthened the Israeli right and weakened the left. It hasn't demonstrated that the blockade worked, but it still hasn't given the current government any reason to remove it.

Israel's actions in the gaza strip have been devastating/cruel to the palestinian people, and at the end of the day, it is responsible for each death, whether civilian or militant, but Hamas's hands are not clean either. For a group that is defending it's people, it has done anything but to prevent deaths. It fires rockets into Israel knowing full well that Israel's response will be disproportionate. It stores weapons in schools and fires its rockets from densely populated urban areas. Both sides are responsible for the deaths of civilians, though i would argue that Hamas should be doing a lot more to protect its own people.

 

[kobashi100]

video of aljazeera reporter breaking down in tears live on air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to_r1SttbS0

 

[Daaruz]

based on the OP's title, I was coming in pretty upset because I hate injustice in the world. And then I read the article

Israel commits massacre in east Gaza (at least 40 dead this morning)
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/20/world/meast/mideast-crisis/

Sixty Palestinians died in Israel's assault on the town of Shaja'ia, and 13 Israeli soldiers were killed.

Hamas claimed responsibility for the deaths of the Israeli soldiers, saying it had lured tanks into a field in which it had hidden improvised explosive devices. The attack "destroyed the force completely," Hamas said, calling it a "heroic operation."

Sounds a lot like Afghanistan and Iraq, except that those were called a "war" and not a "massacre".

For three days, the IDF had warned residents of Shaja'ia to flee, Israel said. Such warnings are delivered through calls and text messages as well as fliers that said "it is the intention of the IDF to carry out aerial strikes against terror sites and operatives" in the area. The fliers told people to head to Gaza City by Wednesday morning and not to return until further notice. The IDF posted an English translation of the fliers Sunday on Twitter.

But the IDF said Hamas "ordered them to stay" and "put them in the line of fire."

Wasn't reported that ISIS is using force to recruit members in Iraq? Hamas and ISIS are not that different.

The IDF posted a photo Sunday on Twitter, saying, "We fired a warning shot at this target in Gaza. In response, these civilians ran to the roof and brought their kids."

Israel announced Sunday it would open a field hospital at the Erez Crossing to treat injured Palestinians. On Saturday, the defense forces delivered truckloads of medical supplies to Gaza.

I have not sides in this whole ordeal, however it is far more complex when you have Russia, the US and other world powers competing for the oil in the area and other natural resources. This is much more than just "Palestinians want their land".

 

[Tesseract]

Link, summary, receipts etc

here ya go, stranger:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/i...ill-clinton-tells-ndtv-full-transcript-560395

NDTV: And it was a crisis you made a successful intervention in to de-escalate the crisis. There is another crisis in the world today that some would say needs the intervention of somebody like you. What's happening between Israel and the Palestinian people today, and I have to ask you and I know the world, not just India, is interested in what you have to say on this. 200 people dead on the Palestinian side in Gaza, almost 80% of them are children and women; one Israeli dead by comparison. Yet the statement we've seen from the White House, many people believe, continues to be partial to the Israeli perspective. Where do you come in on this? How can this crisis be resolved? Do you believe Israel has been fair?

Bill Clinton: Well, first of all Hamas was perfectly well aware of what would happen if they started raining rockets in Israel. They fired a thousand of them. And they have a strategy designed to force Israel to kill their own civilians so that the rest of the world will condemn them. Now, I believe that Prime Minister Netanyahu could and should make a comprehensive peace agreement with the Palestinians. I believe if he did it, and he did it with either President Abbas or with his coalition, if in return for Hamas' renunciation of terror and recognition of Israel's right to exist, I believe 60% of the people of Israel would support it.

NDTV: So what's holding him up?

Bill Clinton: Well, his coalition wouldn't support it, so he'd have to go to a national unity government to pass it. But I think that you'd find that more than 60% Israelis support trying to defend themselves if they get 1000 rockets shot at them. They have a defence system against such missile attacks, the so-called Iron Dome and they haven't died in great numbers yet, although they certainly could have. It's a miracle to me that they fired 1000 rockets in there and more people weren't killed. So they know when Hamas attacks them that Hamas has set up a situation, which politically can't lose, because they can say well, if I attack them back, they always hide behind civilians, and I'll kill civilians; and if I don't, we'll look like fools letting somebody shoot a 1000 rockets at us and not responding. What this proves is that there ought to be serious peace talks, serious ones, and I think the whole existence of this national unity government between the Fatah government on the West Bank and Hamas is the direct result of the lack of progress.

NDTV: Do you blame Prime Minister Netanyahu at least partially for not moving fast enough on the possibility of peace?

Bill Clinton: I think they are partly responsible, but I also think, you know for example, when Hillary was Secretary of State, she helped secure an agreement, the only time Israel ever agreed to freeze settlements as a part of talks, they never had before. So they agreed to a nine-month freeze, and during the whole time the Palestinians didn't want to talk to them. And three weeks before the freeze expires, they say give us another nine months and we'll talk to you. That was a big mistake. So there are mistakes on both sides. But the main thing is they share this little piece of land and this big stretch of history. They know each other so well. They know how many children they have; they know how many grandchildren they have. They know what those grandchildren are doing. It's ridiculous. You talk to them in private you can swear they're all in a big family reunion and they're either going to share their future on positive terms, or share their future on negative terms, and that's the larger truth here and they have to figure out what it is. Over the long run it's not good for Israel to keep isolating itself from moral opinion because of the absence of a viable peace process. But in the short and medium term, Hamas can inflict terrible public relations damage on Israel by forcing it to kill Palestinian civilians to counter Hamas. But it's a crass strategy that takes all of our eyes off the real objective, which is a peace that gets Israel security and recognition, and a peace that gets the Palestinians their state.

 

[Betty]

There is ZERO credible evidence that Hamas was behind the kidnapping. What set this off is the IDF re-arresting 300+ people who were released in a prisoner swap. After the teens went missing. Hamas responded by ending the previous cease fire.

Hamas did celebrate whoever did it though. Even if IDF re-arresting all those people was what caused Hamas to end the ceasefire, choosing to fight Israel has not turned out great for them.

Well you can either die by bombardments and ground offensives in Gaza or crippling poverty and having your home taken from you in the West Bank. Take your pick. That's the difference between peace and war in Palestine.

I realize that's how things are, and it is appalling how the Palestinian people are treated, but I think they could have done more for their situation over the years by working through peaceful means rather than committing acts of terrorism.

Yes, Israel hasn't been bulldozing houses and farms for year. They are really the victims that have never oppressed a people into fighting back.

WTF would you do if you house, farm and livelihood is constantly threatened and destroyed by an occupying force?

If we stood a chance of beating the oppressors, then fight I suppose. But if we would face a choice of either annihilation and death or surrendering and living, then clearly surrender would be the better option. Even if it hurts one's pride, being able to live to fight another day or somehow better the situation later is preferable to simply throwing your life away.

I just think neither side is blameless here, both have committed horrible crimes, and Hamas can't claim moral superiority since it and it's ilk have deliberately targeted civilians for decades.

The way Israel is acting towards civilians is wrong and should be protested against to the fullest, there should be no doubt in anyone's mind about that. In the long run though, I think the Palestinian people would have been better served if they'd chosen to go through peaceful channels rather than one of attempted conquest and countless acts of terror.

Even is Israel had still treated them horrifically in response to their peaceful attempts at getting back their land, and I don't think they would be treating them the same if they did, at least EVERYONE would be fully behind Palestine and it's cause as opposed to how it is now.

 

[ironcreed]

"Ethnic Cleansing" arguments aside, theres very few ways to describe this situation in a positive light. Can we really call this defense? Where is the diplomacy (from BOTH sides, obviously)?

I definitely think Hamas is a problem, but so is Israel's grossly disproportionate response. There is no right side here in my mind, only losers. And right now, those losers are the poor people of Gaza with nowhere to go, while living in fear and seeing their friends and loved ones be slaughtered because of some insane political feud that they have no part of.

 

[jakonovski]

So knowing what you know about Israel's military capabilities, including nuclear weapons, you think 60 deaths is an "ethnic cleansing"? If their goal was truly to exterminate every Palestinian I'm thinking it would look just a tiny bit different than this.

For instance, I don't think it would involve warning civilians to evacuate beforehand, or firing warning shots on buildings before bombing them.

That doesn't mean this action is right - it's more complicated than that - but let's not be silly here. It's like the George Zimmerman threads where they can't just call the guy a trigger-happy dumbass, he has to become a genocidal racist maniac out to exterminate every black kid he saw. We don't have to turn everybody into a cartoon villain.

Ethnic cleansing doesn't mean the same as genocide. Murders can be limited in scope, and other means such as terror and forced relocations can be used to attack the victim group.

 

[Buzzati]

I haven't read all pages in this thread, but is there seriously a person here on GAF that is defending what Israel is doing? A global looks tells me a lot of you condemn these actions, not too surprised since people are supposed to be above average intelligent, but I'm curious nonetheless.

It is being defended on two levels. On a normative level, people are saying Israel has the 'right' to retaliate in this 'style' - bombings, dismissing collateral damage/civilian building centers and targets, etc. And it's being defended on a quantitative level - a tacit acknowledgement that we have not yet reached the threshold amount of civilian deaths, especially in ratio with combatant daeths, and that constitute "excessive force" and that this is still a legitimate military operation.

This kind of complacency in defending of Israel lead to 1200 lebanese civilian deaths of 1400 in the Lebanon war. It was outrageous.

 

[Linkhero1]

"Sometimes submission is the answer"

Said no freedom movement, ever.

That was a good laugh. I can't believe someone recommended for people to stay oppressed.

 

[Quotient]

The Israeli Government's official position is to ethnically cleanse Gaza. I'm not sure what more needs to be said.

I would like to read more on this. Would you please post a link to the speech/publication?

 

[Aaron]

Hamas can't do anything to protect its own people. What they're doing now, awful though it may be, is all they can do. It's either this, or do nothing.

 

[Daaruz]

Read up on this article as a refresher.

Keep up with the news here and here.

interesting information....thanks for that

 

[Stinkles]

As long as Selena Gomez is forced to apologize to America and Israel.

 

[Spacecowboy77]

So in essence, Israel is no more legitimate than Hamas. And all their claims of being a first world western democracy is bullshit.

The only difference is that Israel is in the process of cleansing Gaza.

That's a pretty big stretch.

A couple of idiots MK does not represents an entire country / leadership and even so, if those two had their way, Gaza would be a huge hole in the ground by now. We're talking about an army that can level entire cities in seconds.

 

[Infinite]

Sometimes submission is the answer. This is not a war they can win.

It is never the answer. You should no better than to suggest that people should stay oppressed.

 

[DC R1D3R]

evil bastards

 

[Night_Knight]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXRO1YFreNA
This pretty much sums up a lot of what's going on, do not fall for the mainstream corporate owned media. At this point in time you can even detect their lies in their voices (looking at you Fox News/CNN). Don't fall for their artificial narrative. Yes there is evil on both sides, but to call this a 'war' is a massive understatement, this isn't a war, it's a down right genocide. 'Ethnic cleansing'? How convenient that we as human beings sugar coat horrific acts of violence with 'civilized words', there's no cleansing going on here, it's straight up butchering. Palestinians are literally fighting with stones, that's a freaking joke! This "war" is massively lopsided.

 

[NewEraBlood]

As I said before , Hamas weapons are like paper planes compared to Israel's bullet

What causes the provocation.

Rockets aren't paper planes. Rockets kill people. It doesn't matter if Iron Dome shoots down 90% of them, if 1 gets through and kills a civilian it's too many. If the people of Palestine aren't interested in war with Israel then they shouldn't have elected Hamas. It's a recurring problem in the middle east that countries elect radical governments (the brotherhood in Egypt) and then act shocked whenever they're at war being used as human shields (hamas) or their own government begins treating them like subjects in a theocracy (muslim brotherhood).

Hamas' charter explicitly states they seek the destruction of Israel, and they routinely rocket civilian population centers, but I'm supposed to believe Israel is the bad guy here? Anytime civilians die due to the actions of a government, be it theirs or another, it is a tragedy. But Hamas shares equal blame in this, and condemning Israel after attacking Gaza is like condemning a bear that attacks after being poked with a stick for months.

 

[Daaruz]

video of aljazeera reporter breaking down in tears live on air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to_r1SttbS0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8C4AIFgUg

This Israeli-Palestinian conflict is much deeper politics (even by outside powers like Russia and the US). I mean, the US assists Israel, and where is Hamas getting their rockets and updated weapons? Charity?

Palestinian civilians are the pawns in this whole world chess match.

 

[werks]

I would like to read more on this. Would you please post a link to the speech/publication?

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/pounding-gaza-with-impunity/article6218093.ece

With Gaza reduced to Hamas, 1.8 million people who live in Gaza are made responsible for Hamas. This is the doctrine of collective responsibility, illegal by international law

On July 9, the second day of the Israeli assault on Gaza, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Moshe Feiglin, had three Palestinian Members of Parliament removed from the room: Ahmed Tibi of the Arab Movement for Change as well as Ibrahim Sarsour and Masud Ghnaim of the United Arab List. Their crime: being critical of the Israeli attack on Gaza, which has by now claimed close to 200 Palestinian lives and injured almost a 1,000 Palestinians. Mr. Feiglin, who has said that Arabs are “a gang of bandits,” then offered his own military strategy. The Israeli government, he said, should cut off electricity to Gaza so that its hospitals would be paralysed. “The blood of a dialysis patient in Gaza,” he said, “is not redder than the blood of our IDF [Israel armed forces] soldiers who will, God forbid, need to enter [Gaza].”

Mr. Feiglin is not alone. During Operation Pillar of Defense (2012), Ariel Sharon’s son Gilad wrote in The Jerusalem Post that Israel needs “to flatten entire neighbourhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima — the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki too.”

 

[Cotton McKnight]

It is just a cycle of killing and violence that will continue to act while everyone waves their banners saying this and that. I would love to see peace in Israel, I am not confident that it is possible, but I still pray for the peace that the world could be happy with (whatever that is).

 

[Pilgor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXRO1YFreNA
This pretty much sums up a lot of what's going on, do not fall for the mainstream corporate owned media. At this point in time you can even detect their lies in their voices (looking at you Fox News/CNN). Don't fall for their artificial narrative. Yes there is evil on both sides, but to call this a 'war' is a massive understatement, this isn't a war, it's a down right genocide. 'Ethnic cleansing'? How convenient that we as human beings sugar coat horrific acts of violence with 'civilized words', there's no cleansing going on here, it's straight up butchering. Palestinians are literally fighting with stones, that's a freaking joke! This "war" is massively lopsided.

Israelis kidnapped and murdered the three Israeli teenagers? Israel is attacking Gaza because of natural gas?

Here you go bud.

 

[RustyNails]

Karl Penhaul is doing solid reporting for CNN from Shaj'ya. Hopefully CNN doesn't pull him out. Another journalist to follow on Twitter.

 

[eot]

Hamas' charter explicitly states they seek the destruction of Israel, and they routinely rocket civilian population centers, but I'm supposed to believe Israel is the bad guy here? Anytime civilians die due to the actions of a government, be it theirs or another, it is a tragedy. But Hamas shares equal blame in this, and condemning Israel after attacking Gaza is like condemning a bear that attacks after being poked with a stick for months.

Considering they are the ones illegally occupying territory and are responsible for the vast majority of deaths in the conflict, I find it harder to sympathise with them.