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[Razgreez]

What is hamas objective? WHile israel should clearly act differently, from a rational perspective what does hamas hope to achieve??

What does resistance hope to achieve?

We've seen what abiding by israel's rules accomplishes - slower death and drawn out humiliation. The West Bank is abiding by israel's rules and still being punished for it

 

[BrokenEchelon]

Actually, we knew Bush and his cabal were lying sacks of shits when it came to Iraq. When it came to Afghanistan people were mostly ok. They even coaxed the highly decorated Colin Powell into spewing their lies for Iraq. Iraq war saw the highest number of protests since vietnam, not just in US but around the world.

I know he wasn't the only one who said this, but I always think back on my Philosophy 101 professor commenting on how the world was with us after 9/11. Sympathy and vigils and all of this good spirited energy and support for the US, even from places like Iran. We could have capitalized on that and forged new relationships across the world, and dealt with the terrorists in a more bilateral sense, instead of we took all of that goodwill and shat right down its throat.

 

[Punchy4486]

Actually, we knew Bush and his cabal were lying sacks of shits when it came to Iraq. When it came to Afghanistan people were mostly ok. They even coaxed the highly decorated Colin Powell into spewing their lies for Iraq. Iraq war saw the highest number of protests since vietnam, not just in US but around the world.

Looking it up, there were more protests than I remembered, but maybe that's because I was a bit young.

Still, the majority supported the war. So "overall" public opinion was gobbling up Bush's shit. The supporters were pretty gung-ho about it.

From Wikipedia:
Within the United States, popular opinion on the war has varied significantly with time. Although there was significant opposition to the idea in the months preceding the attack, polls taken during the invasion showed that a majority of US citizens supported their government's action. However, public opinion had shifted by 2004 to a majority believing that the invasion was a mistake, and has remained so since then. There has also been significant criticism of the war from US politicians and national security and military personnel, including generals who served in the war and have since spoken out against its handling.

EDIT: Looks like the stats are complicated. Public opinion was complex, and many supported the war only if the UN Inspectors were given appropriate time and found weapons of mass destruction. Opinions also swung wildly after each speech and more information came out.

 

[speculawyer]

Here is my advice . . . if you live in Israel or Palestine and are a sane person not driven by ancient religions . . . GET THE FUCK OUT OF THERE. There are lots of crazy religious people in Israel, Palestine, Iran, and the USA that will continue to make the area a perpetual hot zone.

If you stay there, it is hazardous to your health.

 

[Bigfoot]

With all the talk about civilian casualties in this thread, I just looked up the stats for civilian casualties in the Iraq and Afghan wars. Wow, I guess even the American military with our technology can't fight a war without killing a ton of civilians. The numbers are in the tens of thousands. Makes this war seem pretty small in comparison.

Is this just a fact of the way war is fought these days? Most of it happens from extreme distances and in urban areas.

 

[Garuda1One]

hmm im curious... when, how, and under what condition will IDF declares victory ?

 

[Chichikov]

Jesus. You can't destroy people and houses because a third party hides behind them. Fuck. People live in these places. If any other country did this to a civilian population there would be an outcry from the US.

Israel has been doing it for years and year, it was official policy in the West Bank and Gaza to destroy the house of families of militants (I'm not talking about doing this during fighting, I'm talking about coming after the fact with bulldozers).
This practice ended in the 90s after countless studies shows it is not an effective deterrence but was re-instituted in 2005, because fuck you, that's why.

 

[HUELEN10]

hmm im curious... when, how, and under what condition will IDF declares victory ?

Never.

We hate war. We do not rejoice in victories. We rejoice when a new kind of cotton is grown, and when strawberries bloom in Israel.

 

[Freezie KO]

What is hamas objective? WHile israel should clearly act differently, from a rational perspective what does hamas hope to achieve??

"from the river to the sea"

 

[Garuda1One]

Never.

i never understand war, conflict and any violence without a clear goals or objectives. and i dont think destroying HAMAS is a feasible objective..

 

[RustyNails]

Someone asked what does Hamas really want. Lo and Behold, Haaretz has a timely article on that exact same question. Please read this article everyone.

What does Hamas Really Want?

After we’ve said everything there is to say about Hamas: that it’s fundamentalist; that it’s undemocratic; that it’s cruel; that it does not recognize Israel; that it fires on civilians; that it’s hiding ammunition in schools and hospitals; that it did not act to protect the population of Gaza – after all that has been said, and rightly so, we should stop for a moment and listen to Hamas; we may even be permitted to put ourselves in its shoes, perhaps even to appreciate the daring and resilience of this, our bitter enemy, under harsh conditions.

But Israel prefers to shut its ears to the demands of the other side, even when those demands are right and conform to Israel’s own interests in the long run. Israel prefers to strike Hamas without mercy and with no purpose other than revenge. This time it is particularly clear: Israel says it does not want to topple Hamas – even Israel understands that instead it will have Somalia at its gates – but it is also unwilling to listen to Hamas’ demands. Are they all “animals”? Let’s say that’s true. But they are there to stay, even Israel believes that’s the case, so why not listen?

Last week 10 conditions were published in the name of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, for a 10-year cease-fire. We may doubt whether these were in fact the demands of those organizations, but they can serve as a fair basis for an agreement. There is not one unfounded condition among them.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad demand freedom for Gaza. Is there a more understandable and just demand? There is no way to end the current cycle of killing, and not have another round in a few months, without accepting this. No military operation, by air, ground or sea, will bring a solution; only a basic change of attitude toward Gaza can ensure what everyone wants: quiet.

Read the list of demands and judge honestly whether there is one unjust demand among them: withdrawal of Israel Defense Forces troops and allowing farmers to work their land up to the fence; release of all prisoners from the Gilad Shalit swap who have been rearrested; an end to the siege and opening of the crossings; opening of a port and airport under UN management; expansion of the fishing zone; international supervision of the Rafah crossing; an Israeli pledge to a 10-year cease-fire and closure of Gaza’s air space to Israeli aircraft; permits to Gaza residents to visit Jerusalem and pray at the Al-Aqsa mosque; and an Israeli pledge not to interfere in internal Palestinian politics such as the unity government; opening Gaza’s industrial zone.

These conditions are civilian; the means of achieving them are military, violent and criminal. But the (bitter) truth is that when Gaza is not firing rockets at Israel, nobody cares about it. Look at the fate of the Palestinian leader who had had enough of violence. Israel did everything it could to destroy Mahmoud Abbas. The depressing conclusion? Only force works.

The current war is a war of choice, a choice that we had. True, after Hamas started firing rockets, Israel had to respond. But as opposed to what Israeli propaganda tries to sell, the rockets didn’t fall out of the sky from nowhere. Go back a few months: the breakdown of negotiations by Israel; the war on Hamas in the West Bank following the murder of the three yeshiva students, which it is doubtful Hamas planned, including the false arrest of 500 of its activists; stopping payment of salaries to Hamas workers in Gaza and Israeli opposition to the unity government, which might have brought the organization into the political sphere. Anyone who thinks all this would simply be taken in stride must be suffering from arrogance, complacence and blindness.

Terrifying amounts of blood are being spilled in Gaza – and in Israel to a lesser extent. It is being spilled in vain. Hamas is beaten down by Israel and humiliated by Egypt. The only chance for a real solution is exactly the opposite of the way Israel is going. A port in Gaza to export its excellent strawberries? To Israelis this sounds like heresy. Here once again, the preference is for (Palestinian) blood over (Palestinian) strawberries.

I realized I bolded pretty much all of it. I already posted Hamas demands in previous post here:

But Hamas already did. They agreed to 67 borders. They also offered a 10 year truce based on these conditions:

• Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.

• Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.

• Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.

• Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.

• Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.

• Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.

• International forces on the borders.

• Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.

• Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.

• Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.

Do you find any bullet points unreasonable.

Even if this is unrealistic, bluff, or a straight lie, there is nothing unrealistic about wanting 10 km of fishing area or an international port. Why shouldn't Israel consider this? I also posted that Hamas offered a similar truce in 2004.

 

[Chichikov]

Never.

There were no such thing as Palestinians.

Also, as terrible as a PM that Golda "they're not nice people" Meir was, she was still heads and shoulders above the current crop of idiots directing the country.

p.s.
Mark my words, no matter how ti will happen, be it through concession to Hamas, international pressure or a casualty count that would make this whole endeavor unpopular, whenever this pointless round of violence will end, Netanyhu will declare a victory (and Liberman and Benet would say it's a shameful surrender).

 

[Laughing Banana]

All the "but it's war, whaddya expect" responses and anything similar to it sickens me :/

It's easy to comment such things hiding from the comfort of your PC screens and homes I guess.

 

[RustyNails]

Israeli human rights lawyer Michael Sfard speak to Raji Sourani, founder and director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, about the ongoing destruction in Shujaiyeh, the use of human shields and the fate of Gaza’s civilian population.

M: So, how was last night?

R: Well last night was difficult, the worst in the last two weeks. This is incredible evil. Ambulances weren’t able to reach the areas which were under heavy bombardment by tanks and F16s. And F22s were used too last night. And these kinds of bombs that we are not familiar making the houses last in an earthquake. You know, it just shakes for a few seconds.

M: There are no warnings before?

R: No no no. It just on the top of the people, on their heads. It is a war zone, not bombing. You see slain [people]. Six to eight bombed per minute. Not for 10 minutes, or one hour, all the east side of Gaza, Zeiton, Shujaiyeh, eastern Jabaliya, nothern area, eastern Khan Younis, eastern Rafah…

M: Israeli friends reported that the IDF, the Israeli army made notifications that the civilians could go to some areas. Are there any areas that are safe to be?

R: No, there is not safe place in Gaza. You can be in the street, in my office or home and you will be bombed and away from my house, sixty meters a house was bombed by an F16. This can anywhere, whether it a drone, F16, and tonight they used F22. Gaza, Michael, I’m telling you, 350,000 square kilometers, two million people are living in it. It is one of the most densely populated areas on earth. Anywhere you move. You can ask people from the northern or eastern areas to move but you are taking about 400,000. They ask eastern Khan Younis, where to go?

So far there is 70,000-80,000 [civilians] that moved since mid-day yesterday (July 19), but where are the people can go? UNRWA? Each school hold 1,500-2,000 people. There is shortages in the UNRWA schools. It’s madness. I have never seen anything like this in my life.

M: Do you think it is worse than Cast Lead?

R: That was a joke. This is very, very serious. I think the army is losing their minds. They really want to inflict pain and terror on the civilians.

 

[Razgreez]

All the "but it's war, whaddya expect" responses and anything similar to it sickens me :/

It's easy to comment such things hiding from the comfort of your PC screens and homes I guess.

Especially since it isn't "war". Just blatant brutal occupation.

 

[speculawyer]

There were no such thing as Palestinians.

That is such a stupid argument. That is like the people who say "there's no such thing as 'assault weapons' thus derp derp derp". That is just semantic quibbling that misses the point of the issue.

 

[Zen]

Yeah it only exists as an obfuscation to deflect from the reality of the issue. Even were it true, nothing changes.

Israeli human rights lawyer Michael Sfard speak to Raji Sourani, founder and director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, about the ongoing destruction in Shujaiyeh, the use of human shields and the fate of Gaza’s civilian population.

Considering that not a single human rights organization (since the last go around and there were 20+ of them investigating) could find any proof of Hamas using human shields I do have to wonder if it actually exists or not.

 

[Sarcastico]

This news is fucking sickening. Ruined my day.

 

[Chichikov]

That is such a stupid argument. That is like the people who say "there's no such thing as 'assault weapons' thus derp derp derp". That is just semantic quibbling that misses the point of the issue.

While without doubt stupid, this is more than a semantic argument, in the Zionist ethos, Israel is "a land without a people for a people without a land", the existence of Palestinian people shakes the moral foundations of the state of Israel, at least in the way most Israelis see it.
And attacks on the idea that there is such things as Palestinians were much more substantial than semantics, probably most famous is that heap of lies and bullshit known as From Time Immemorial.

You can even see it in GAF, where some of the JIDF less sharp members still parade that whole "there was never a Palestinian state, how can you occupy something that doesn't exists?" crap.
They really need to update their talking points, this shit is so 80s, Israel HASBARA du jour is that they really want a two state solution and peace, but terrorism, please understand

Spoiler

and don't look at the settlements

.

 

[RustyNails]

Considering that not a single human rights organization (since the last go around and there were 20+ of them investigating) could find any proof of Hamas using human shields I do have to wonder if it actually exists or not.

This is a report from Amnesty International after their investigation of Operation Cast Lead in 2009 which killed about 1400 Palestinians

While human rights organizations haven’t yet addressed “human shields” allegations in the ongoing round of Israel-Gaza violence, they did after the 2009 round when Israel killed at least 773 Palestinian civilians, compared to three Israeli civilian casualties (a ratio of 257:1), and used the same “human shields” argument to deflect responsibility for those deaths. When the dust settled, Amnesty International investigated the matter and concluded that there was “no evidence that [Palestinian] rockets were launched from residential houses or buildings while civilians were in these buildings.” More attention-worthy was the report’s note that,

in the cases of [Israeli] precision missiles or tank shells which killed [Palestinian] civilians in their homes, no fighters were present in the houses that were struck and Amnesty International delegates found no indication that there had been any armed confrontations or other military activity in the immediate vicinity at the time of the attack.

By contrast, the same report found that “in several cases Israeli soldiers also used [Palestinian] civilians, including children, as ‘human shields’.

In before Amnesty International is anti-semetic.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

Let me say this as an Arab person who lives in the middle east.

I do not hate Jews, never did. But I am sad to say that I am a minority here, a lot of people have grown to hate Zionists and in turn they started to put Zionism and Judaism together as if one cannot be complete without the other but that is not true, you don't need to be Jewish to be Zionist and don't need to be Zionist to be Jewish. My personal hatreds are against Zionism's crimes against humanity and not Jews. I just wanted to clear that out so nobody would claim that I am an antisemitic person.

What happens in Palestine is nothing short of a massacre and had been going on for nearly 50 years since the six day war in 1967 and maybe even before that. Israel made immense crimes against humanity and no one can deny that, but at the same time I am having a very hard time supporting Palestine when they're doing methods that clearly doesn't work. Violence and Jihadist ways of doing things does not work and will not work against Israel because they're a too powerful foe to fight against so they will never win when they're at a huge disadvantage.

The only solution to this matter is trying their best to make a peace treaty but is seems like neither side is interested in making one (Remember what happened to Rabin?). Fatah seems like they want to make a peace treaty but Hamas clearly doesn't which caused a long conflict between the two groups which caused Hamas to take over the Gaza strip back in 2007. Not all Palestinians support Hamas but a lot do because they think they're the only one who has the courage to fight Israel among the Arabs but they are thinking emotionally and not rationally. I get it, they say their loved ones die by the hands of The Israeli but violence didn't work and will not work. So a peace treaty is the only thing that could stop this but a lot of people would see this as giving up and it's a form of weakness. I see it that sometimes it is the right thing to do and a lot of nations have risen to be great after giving up in war, Germany and Japan are the prime examples.

This is my take on the matter and I hope I didn't sound biased.

This seems like a sensible post to me.
I think the Palestinians need to stop firing rockets so they stop giving Israel a license to attack them. It will also stop many in the international community seeing Palestinians as the aggressors.
Right now, I dont see either side putting much value on Palestinian lives.

 

[GaimeGuy]

This seems like a sensible post to me.
I think the Palestinians need to stop firing rockets so they stop giving Israel a license to attack them. It will also stop many in the international community seeing Palestinians as the aggressors.
Right now, I dont see either side putting much value on Palestinian lives.

This is EXACTLY why all the independent paramilitary organizations are a problem. Even if the acting leadership like Hamas agrees to a ceasefire, if some dumbass from Fatah or the PLF fires rockets off, Israel responds, and we're back to square one. You can't have all of these groups with their own private armies and weapons caches running amock because one of them is inevitably going to fall out of line.

At least if you consolidate the military wings into one unified armed force you can get your shit in order.

 

[CyclopsRock]

i never understand war, conflict and any violence without a clear goals or objectives. and i dont think destroying HAMAS is a feasible objective..

I think that, generally speaking, Israel's goal is survival. If they wanted to annex The West Bank and Gaza, they could have done it a long time ago. And with the populations going up in those areas, it's not like they're playing the waiting game. But Hamas have the stated goal of destroying the state of Israel, so whether you think they could be doing their fighting better or not, the option to simply not fight doesn't really exist for them.

 

[Chichikov]

I think that, generally speaking, Israel's goal is survival. If they wanted to annex The West Bank and Gaza, they could have done it a long time ago. And with the populations going up in those areas, it's not like they're playing the waiting game. But Hamas have the stated goal of destroying the state of Israel, so whether you think they could be doing their fighting better or not, the option to simply not fight doesn't really exist for them.

Once upon a time Egypt stated goal was the destruction of Israel, so was the PLO's. Israel was able to make peace with both of them.
It refuses to negotiate with Hamas.
Yeah, they're not the nicest of people, but it's not like bombing people is going to make them more moderate.
Israel couldn't strike a deal with Fatah and it got Hamas, if it won't deal with Hamas it will have to deal with ISIS.

 

[Slurpy2k20]

Good quick read for people here who seem to have everything ass-backwards, thanks to the never ending Israeli propaganda campaign.

http://www.economist.com/news/middl...ay-not-get-them-why-hamas-fires-those-rockets

A couple highlights:

After the last big Israeli effort to stop the rockets, in November 2012, it was agreed that, along with a ceasefire, the blockade of Gaza would gradually be lifted and the crossings into Egypt and Israel would be opened. The ceasefire generally held, but the siege continued. As Gazans see it, they have remained cruelly shut up in an open-air prison.

Noone ever mentions this. Israel lied and did not hold up its end of the promise. The siege was never lifted, as part of the agreement- it only intensified, even with no Hamas rockets. Funny how that works, eh?

More recently, say Gazans, the Israelis under Binyamin Netanyahu showed they were determined to destroy a peace-minded Palestinian unity government endorsed by Hamas and the more moderate Fatah party under Mahmoud Abbas, after the failure of American-brokered talks between Mr Abbas and Mr Netanyahu. The Israeli prime minister made it clear he would never talk to a Palestinian government backed by Hamas, even though America cautiously welcomed it. So he has done everything, say the Palestinians, to thwart it.

Netanyahu never gave the unity government a fucking chance. His goal was to torpedo it from day 1, and punish the palestinians even further for having the audacity to do such a thing. Those who try to claim that Israel has tried to negotiate with Hamas since they became part of the gvt are completely full of shit- they never, ever have.

The Gazan grievance over prisoners stirs great passion among Palestinians everywhere. After three Israeli students were kidnapped on the West Bank on June 12th and later found murdered, the Israeli security forces rounded up more than 500 Hamas people, even though the movement did not claim responsibility for the crime. The increase in rocket fire was partly intended as a protest against the round-up of prisoners. Any ceasefire, says Hamas, must include the release at least of those detained in the past month.

500 Hamas members were locked up even though Israel has not presented a shred of evidence that anyone from Hamas was behind the kidnappings. Again, this happened before the rocket fire.

Those people pretending Hamas "started it" with the rocket fire are either deliberate liars, or simply utterly ignorant of the context. It's also incredible to me that people cant understand that Palestinians would want some say in an agreement, instead of Israel dictating the terms and going back to the status-quo, which is Gaza being a starved shit-hole under an intense siege and blockage, with no hope of any economic progress set by these restrictions.

 

[boiled goose]

My question about hamas was prompted by the fact that i think firing rockets on civilians in Israel is actually against the interest of the Palestinian people.

They need a strong but peaceful resistance.

Firing shitty rockets does absolutely nothing to help the Palestinians.

 

[King_Moc]

I think that, generally speaking, Israel's goal is survival. If they wanted to annex The West Bank and Gaza, they could have done it a long time ago. And with the populations going up in those areas, it's not like they're playing the waiting game. But Hamas have the stated goal of destroying the state of Israel, so whether you think they could be doing their fighting better or not, the option to simply not fight doesn't really exist for them.

It's been stated numerous times in this thread that this is no longer their goal. They are the only one of the two that are proposing a two state solution. Israel ignored their very reasonable list of demands.

 

[Cloudy]

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/why-israel-is-losing-the-american-media-war.html

Earlier this month, the IDF's twitter feed had been full of images of besieged Israelis. But by this weekend Israel was so clearly losing the public relations war that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu complained to reporters, tersely, that Hamas uses "telegenically dead Palestinians for their cause."

If Netanyahu is so bothered by how dead Palestinians look on television then he should stop killing so many of them. But his complaint is in itself a concession. The story of the conflict between Israel and Palestine looks a little bit different this time around. Social media have helped allow us to see more deeply inside war zones--in this case, inside Gaza, and allowed viewers much fuller access to the terror that grips a population under military attack. America's changing demographics (the country's Muslim population has skyrocketed in the past decade and is now as much as 50 percent larger than the US Jewish population) have meant both a more receptive audience for sympathetic stories about Palestinians and more Americans like Abu Khdeir, with connections back to Palestine. The sheer imbalance in the human toll, in the numbers of dead, has been impossible to elide or ignore.

None of this is likely to change the politics of America's relationship with Israel. The US's support for Israel wasn't arrived at arbitrarily, and it has withstood some similarly ugly episodes in the past. Palestine is still ruled by ugly politics. But in a subtler way I think the way the last two weeks have unfolded in the western media has made it more difficult for Americans not personally invested in the conflict to simply assume that the Israelis are necessarily right. There is a reason that apolitical celebrities like Dwight Howard and Rihanna were tweeting out messages of support for Palestine. They, like the rest of us, were are seeing the Palestinians a little bit less as demogogues and terrorists and a little bit more as they see themselves, as ordinary people living in often impossible circumstances.

Interesting stuff. The democratization of media with things like Twittter is pretty powerful

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

It's been stated numerous times in this thread that this is no longer their goal. They are the only one of the two that are proposing a two state solution. Israel ignored their very reasonable list of demands.

A couple choice quotes over the years which downplay their desire to destroy Israel, given to Western journalists, does not somehow mean their goal is now a 2-state solution. They constantly remind their supporters that they want to liberate every inch of 'Palestinian land' and that they will never recognize Israel. Saying they would accept the 67 borders means precious little as they still wouldn't recognize Israel in that situation, it would just be one step towards destroying the Jewish state.

 

[Interceptor]

It's been stated numerous times in this thread that this is no longer their goal. They are the only one of the two that are proposing a two state solution. Israel ignored their very reasonable list of demands.

And numerous times this has been wrong.

 

[nib95]

Someone asked what does Hamas really want. Lo and Behold, Haaretz has a timely article on that exact same question. Please read this article everyone.

What does Hamas Really Want?

I realized I bolded pretty much all of it. I already posted Hamas demands in previous post here:

Even if this is unrealistic, bluff, or a straight lie, there is nothing unrealistic about wanting 10 km of fishing area or an international port. Why shouldn't Israel consider this? I also posted that Hamas offered a similar truce in 2004.

Thanks for the link. I'd never actually seen a list of Hamas's or Palestine's demands, but glossing over them, not only does not a single one look unfair, they actually all look absolutely standard and humanely obvious.

 

[kmfdmpig]

Israeli human rights lawyer Michael Sfard speak to Raji Sourani, founder and director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, about the ongoing destruction in Shujaiyeh, the use of human shields and the fate of Gaza’s civilian population.

The US is the only country with the F22 so does Raji believe the US is bombing Gaza or is it just a minor bit of confusion?

 

[Dopus]

And numerous times this has been wrong.

Could you please show us how it is their goal then? Thanks.

 

[Interceptor]

Could you please show us how it is their goal then? Thanks.

Same as always. Kill every jew. Even the trees will tell them about the jews hiding behind them! It is written.

 

[Chichikov]

A couple choice quotes over the years which downplay their desire to destroy Israel, given to Western journalists, does not somehow mean their goal is now a 2-state solution. They constantly remind their supporters that they want to liberate every inch of 'Palestinian land' and that they will never recognize Israel. Saying they would accept the 67 borders means precious little as they still wouldn't recognize Israel in that situation, it would just be one step towards destroying the Jewish state.

Egypt had the destruction of Israel as its stated goal, and unlike Hamas, they (sort of) had the means to do that.
They are willing to negotiate with Israel, Israel are not willing to negotiate with them.

And you keep acting like the current course of action had has done anything, like, if killing hundreds of innocent civilians had brought security and peace to the southern border of Israel, there can be a discussion about whether or not it is justified.
But you have been following this patter for over a decade under the impression that if you bomb them enough they'll stop hate you and overthrow Hamas.
It doesn't work.
You only further radicalize them (and understandably so).

 

[Yagharek]

This is a report from Amnesty International after their investigation of Operation Cast Lead in 2009 which killed about 1400 Palestinians

In before Amnesty International is anti-semetic.

Pretty damning findings with respect to Israel.

 

[RustyNails]

The US is the only country with the F22 so does Raji believe the US is bombing Gaza or is it just a minor bit of confusion?

Probably the latter. I think he mistook F-35s for F-22.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Egypt had the destruction of Israel as its stated goal, and unlike Hamas, they (sort of) had the means to do that.
They are willing to negotiate with Israel, Israel are not willing to negotiate with them.

And you keep acting like the current course of action had has done anything, like, if killing hundreds of innocent civilians had brought security and peace to the southern border of Israel, there can be a discussion about whether or not it is justified.
But you have been following this patter for over a decade under the impression that if you bomb them enough they'll stop hate you and overthrow Hamas.
It doesn't work.
You only further radicalize them (and understandably so).

Yeah you have said that several times already, and I don't see how it is relevant in this instance when all I was doing was pointing out that it is incorrect to say that Hamas says they will accept a two-state solution.

 

[Razgreez]

Same as always. Kill every jew. Even the trees will tell them about the jews hiding behind them! It is written.

Written where? Well besides the propaganda material you're supplied with of course

Yeah you have said that several times already, and I don't see how it is relevant in this instance when all I was doing was pointing out that it is incorrect to say that Hamas says they will accept a two-state solution.

Pointing out without evidence? Unless of course you mean the same evidence the poster I quoted above is so graciously providing

We have clear evidence of palestinians attempting to form a unity government. We have clear evidence of israel's response to that. And then we have you and your rather dedicated band of zionist supporters repeating the same rhetoric and even providing us with IDF labelled propaganda drawings.

 

[jakonovski]

All prattle aside, with Israel's current conduct there is no other logical endgame than genocide. It is the only way to "pacify" a population to the degree Israel wants.

 

[RustyNails]

Yeah you have said that several times already, and I don't see how it is relevant in this instance when all I was doing was pointing out that it is incorrect to say that Hamas says they will accept a two-state solution.

Suppose (suspend your disbelief) Israel agreed to Hamas terms and now we have liberated Palestinian territory, with Hamas either a part of the legitimate government or the government itself. Now with this in mind, can you tell us how Hamas can proceed to destroy Israel and accomplish their charter?

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Suppose (suspend your disbelief) Israel agreed to Hamas terms and now we have liberated Palestinian territory, with Hamas either a part of the legitimate government or the government itself. Now with this in mind, can you tell us how Hamas can proceed to destroy Israel and accomplish their charter?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying because asking me to imagine a situation where Israel agrees to a free Palestine that doesn't recognise Israel is almost the level of asking me to imagine a square circle, but off the top of my head such a situation would allow Hamas to focus on increasing its military strength which would be a lot easier without a blockade to stem the flow of Iranian weaponry.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Probably the latter. I think he mistook F-35s for F-22.

Israel does not have any F-35's either.

 

[kmfdmpig]

Probably the latter. I think he mistook F-35s for F-22.

They don't have those either though. They won't for another few years. I know it's not that important but curious if the person thinks the US is involved.

 

[Chichikov]

Yeah you have said that several times already, and I don't see how it is relevant in this instance when all I was doing was pointing out that it is incorrect to say that Hamas says they will accept a two-state solution.

You fail to see wow the fact that Israel was able to reach a peace agreement with people who were once vowed for its destruction relevant?
Like, really?
Also, it's important here is that Hamas can't destroy Israel, even after 10 years ceasefire that will be used for nothing but smuggling of weapons.
This talk is just bluster, and they know it.

 

[DiscoJer]

Suppose (suspend your disbelief) Israel agreed to Hamas terms and now we have liberated Palestinian territory, with Hamas either a part of the legitimate government or the government itself. Now with this in mind, can you tell us how Hamas can proceed to destroy Israel and accomplish their charter?

Are you kidding? You realize that Hamas gets weapons from Iran, which is currently working on nukes.

You fail to see wow the fact that Israel was able to reach a peace agreement with people who were once vowed for its destruction relevant?
Like, really?
Also, it's important here is that Hamas can't destroy Israel, even after 10 years ceasefire that will be used for nothing but smuggling of weapons.
This talk is just bluster, and they know it.

That's because Egypt decided to make peace with Israel.

If Hamas decides to stop kidnapping Israelis and killing them and firing rockets into Israel (you know, what started all this) then yes, they can make peace. But not until then.

 

[jimi_dini]

Jesus. You can't destroy people and houses because a third party hides behind them. Fuck. People live in these places. If any other country did this to a civilian population there would be an outcry from the US.

Wait, what are those Obama-drones doing then in all sorts of countries? Shooting flowers? They are using drones on locations, where US just assumes that there may be a terrorist (which may just be a cellphone being around that location). Because fuck children + civilians.

So I guess you should have said "If any other country besides US and Israel did this..."

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

You fail to see wow the fact that Israel was able to reach a peace agreement with people who were once vowed for its destruction relevant?
Like, really?
Also, it's important here is that Hamas can't destroy Israel, even after 10 years ceasefire that will be used for nothing but smuggling of weapons.
This talk is just bluster, and they know it.

It is irrelevant because I didn't even say Israel could not negotiate with those who at one stage called for their destruction, you just jumped to that conclusion. I only took issue with the idea that Hamas has said it will accept a two state solution and has given up the clause in its Charter that says 'destroy Israel' in no uncertain terms. Your response implicitly acknowledged that I'm right so thanks for that.

If you really want me to address the point you are keen on attacking - which I never made - I will simply say that if Hamas can, like Egypt, in future honestly give up its aim to destroy Israel and convince all concerned parties that they won't continue their terrorist activities then of course Israel should negotiate with them in peace talks that would lead to a Palestinian state. The Hamas of today is not the Egypt of yesterday. I'm not really interested in discussing the cease fire terms, we don't know if they were real.

 

[ScrubJay]

Disgusting, but totally unsuprising. The result of almost 70 years of dehumanizing the people living in the region.

 

[Dopus]

Same as always. Kill every jew. Even the trees will tell them about the jews hiding behind them! It is written.

Despite the numerous attempts over the last few years to try and push forward with an actual solution? Despite the attempt at a unity government with Hamas and Fatah? People really need to stop quoting the 1988 charter. The last ceasefire in 2012, Israel continued their blockade on Gaza despite promising to slowly ease it to the point of the crossings to Egypt and Israel being opened. It wasn't. The Israeli government lied and they continue to do so. Putting the deaths of Palestinians aside, Hamas firing rockets into Israel doesn't hurt their situation nor does it help it as Israel will continue as they have done to steal land, steal resources and collectively punish a population of people who have lived in the region for thousands of years.

If you honestly believe that Israel has the right to do this then you're simply a cruel human being. The stance Netanyahu has taken with not directly talking to Hamas just shows how interested the government is in an actual solution. It's only with mounting international pressure on Israel this will happen, they will be forced to do so. Consider how they Israelis has treated and dealt with Abbas. Complete and utter disregard for what he is doing, they're blocking any negotiations and any progress being made on a real solution. It is idiocy to think otherwise. Hamas are a terrorist organisation, but it is the direct result and consequence of the policies the lunatic state of Israel has put forward.