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2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]

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But guys I did find a video of a Hamas official admitting Hamas uses civilians for their causes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y

Is this not good proof?(I'm seriously asking, not being cynical here)

We know Hamas is using human shields. But - Again - how many causalities does it take for you to consider that maybe, maybeeeee this is not all on Hamas? That maybe the IDF is not doing anything it can? Seriously, how many? How many children needs to die before we can consider the fact that maybe notifying people with no where to go is not actually an excuse?
 
We know Hamas is using human shields. But - Again - how many causalities does it take for you to consider that maybe, maybeeeee this is not all on Hamas? That maybe the IDF is not doing anything it can? Seriously, how many? How many children needs to die before we can consider the fact that maybe notifying people with no where to go is not actually an excuse?
When did I say IDF is completely not to blame on any incident happening in Gaza?

I admitted that the army can, and have done mistakes, or war crimes possibly made by several soldiers that should definitely be punished for it. Didn't anyone see it?
 
But guys I did find a video of a Hamas official admitting Hamas uses civilians for their causes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y

Is this not good proof?(I'm seriously asking, not being cynical here)

IDF soldiers have used civilians as shields also. In fact someone on GAF admitting to doing it. My point being that while yes Hamas has used civilians they sure as hell haven't "used" them as shields for the thousands of bombings that Israel has done. And honestly if the IDF knows that they are bombing civilians the "shield" argument doesn't hold any weight.
 
IDF soldiers have used civilians as shields also. In fact someone on GAF admitting to doing it. My point being that while yes Hamas has used civilians they sure as hell haven't "used" them as shields for the thousands of bombings that Israel has done. And honestly if the IDF knows that they are bombing civilians the "shield" argument doesn't hold any weight.
Can I have a source on it? I have never heard of a single time when an IDF soldier used a citizen as a human shield.
 
When did I say IDF is completely not to blame on any incident happening in Gaza?

I admitted that the army can, and have done mistakes, or war crimes possibly made by several soldiers that should definitely be punished for it. Didn't anyone see it?

The war crimes were not by several soldiers but by IDF policy. Your commanding officers are guilty of setting policies in place that intentionally cause civilian casualties. I'm an american soldier with 12 years of active duty and 48 months of combat time. Your army is a fucking disgrace to my profession (and we weren't fucking saints). It sickens me that we are "allies" and that you get to call yourself a soldier.
 
But guys I did find a video of a Hamas official admitting Hamas uses civilians for their causes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y

Is this not good proof?(I'm seriously asking, not being cynical here)

Horrible if they do in the current conflct, yet HRW and anoter report had not found any evidence that they currently are using human shields. If we want to look at videos of the past, perhaps you should also include footage and reports of IDF soldiers using human shields.
 
On the subject of how Gaza enables it, in the face of a more pacified West Bank (where settlement activity has always been greater for pretty practical reasons), a perceived existential threat from Gaza gives Israel a continued pretext for not pursuing a workable peace that would absolutely have to include some dismantling of the West Bank settlements and some solution to the Jerusalem issue. This is an extremely cynical perspective in terms of the Israeli government's motives, but it's honestly pretty hard to fit other, less cynical, theories to the facts imo. And it's no less cynical a view than I take to American or Russian activities.

Re. ethnic cleansing, the settlements, as well as roads connecting them to each other and to Israel proper, are off-limits to Palestinians, who also don't have the benefit of access to civil law (while settlers usually do). I'm not sure how that doesn't constitute removal of Palestinians from their land in favour of another ethnic group. Even if you assumed that land was previously completely unoccupied (which is, afaik, provably untrue) it was still intended to be part of a Palestinian state. And Jews and Arabs are de facto separated from each other by security walls.

Your first point is well taken. Regarding the west bank, I think it should be a Palestinian state, and that the settlements are an unlawful occupation. I suppose I agree, based on the way in which the settlements are displacing people (depriving them of access) that the west bank actions would be ethnic cleansing.

I am less inclined to include the nakba in my thinking, however, as the ways in which the Palestinians left is in dispute and it happened during an otherwise traditional ground war between state actors. I am sure that members of the hagana would have been happy to have ethnically cleansed the area at the time, but I have a hard time lumping in that with the policies that are being undertaken and what's happening on the ground right now.
 
When did I say IDF is completely not to blame on any incident happening in Gaza?

I admitted that the army can, and have done mistakes, or war crimes possibly made by several soldiers that should definitely be punished for it. Didn't anyone see it?

The problem is that you only consider these as individual cases and fail to see the systematic aspect of it. These are not weed among the IDF, it's the IDF command. It's our government and our policy. We made Gaza into basically a giant jail, and then we're surprised at the reprecussions, and then when we drive ourselves into another operation in Gaza we keep shouting "HAMAS IS USING THEM AS SHIELDS" as we bomb children.

The war crimes are not accidental, they're the policy. And we have to make it fucking stop.

Can I have a source on it? I have never heard of a single time when an IDF soldier used a citizen as a human shield.

The IDF calls it Nohal Shachen and it was used extensively during Homat Magen.
 
The war crimes were not by several soldiers but by IDF policy. Your commanding officers are guilty of setting policies in place that intentionally cause civilian casualties. I'm an american soldier with 12 years of active duty and 48 months of combat time. Your army is a fucking disgrace to my profession (and we weren't fucking saints either). It sickens me that we are "allies" and that you get to call yourself a soldier.
You are aware that your lovely army has performed more war crimes than most other armies around, yes?

Afganistan, Iraq etc.

How many civilians were killed there? By your army. Should I say now that the U.S army's policy is also causing civilian casualties? Doesn't that also supposedly make you a "fucking disgrace"?
 
You are aware that your lovely army has performed more war crimes than most other armies around, yes?

Afganistan, Iraq etc.

How many civilians were killed there? By your army. Should I say now that the U.S army's policy is also causing civilian casualties? Doesn't that also supposedly make you a "fucking disgrace"?

this is going to end well. i can tell
 
You are aware that your lovely army has performed more war crimes than most other armies around, yes?

Afganistan, Iraq etc.

How many civilians were killed there? By your army. Should I say now that the U.S army's policy is also causing civilian casualties? Doesn't that also supposedly make you a "fucking disgrace"?

No, we just hold our own accountable. When was the last IDF soldier convicted of a war crime? Show me a single incidence of the US Army knowingly attacking an UN shelter for civilians.
 
Yeah, well, the fact the the US are fucking assholes does not make the IDF any better, You know, there's a reason they're fucking allies. One bastard found the other.
 
Yeah, well, the fact the the US are fucking assholes does not make the IDF any better, You know, there's a reason they're fucking allies. One bastard found the other.

The US is enabling all of this to happen, has been doing it from the start. Two sides of the same coin.
 
The war crimes were not by several soldiers but by IDF policy. Your commanding officers are guilty of setting policies in place that intentionally cause civilian casualties. I'm an american soldier with 12 years of active duty and 48 months of combat time. Your army is a fucking disgrace to my profession (and we weren't fucking saints). It sickens me that we are "allies" and that you get to call yourself a soldier.

In Afghanistan American forces don't carry on with an air strike if a civilian is in the area, the IDF target them. It is pretty much a joke.
 
let's parse some facts:

The IDF admitted it had used Palestinians as 'human shields', in limited capacities; it acknowleged using human shields 1,500 times during the Second Intifada.;[14] the practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[14][15] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[14][16] Specifically, while acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", claiming it had already forbidden this practice.[15]

Amnesty International[17] and Human Rights Watch[18] said the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[19][20] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of "human shields" during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[21]

The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[19][22] In 2006, the IDF again used civilians as human shields in Beit Hanun.[23] In February 2007, Associated Press Television News released footage of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian. The video appears to show the West Bank resident serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers.[22][24] The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident.[22] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank raid.[25]

So, is there a difference between a 'human shield' that you but between you and incoming ordinance and a 'human shield' that you send to tell some guy he's gonna be arrested? I don't condone either practice, but I don't think they carry quite the same weight...
 
No, we just hold our own accountable. When was the last IDF soldier convicted of a war crime? Show me a single incidence of the US Army knowingly attacking an UN shelter for civilians.
How about the bombings of many many populated areas filled to brimming with innocents, many of whom died without any reason.

I don't mind you calling my army out on things, but don't be a hypocrite, especially when I served my time for 3 years because I had to, not because I wanted to. You chose to stay 12 years.
 
let's parse some facts:



So, is there a difference between a 'human shield' that you but between you and incoming ordinance and a 'human shield' that you send to tell some guy he's gonna be arrested? I don't condone either practice, but I don't think they carry quite the same weight...

I just threw my hands so high in the air I could touch the moon.
 
Can I have a source on it? I have never heard of a single time when an IDF soldier used a citizen as a human shield.

Glenn Greenwald retweeted this today:
yeyYwTU.png

https://twitter.com/ZaidJilani/status/492408122175418370
 
In Afghanistan American forces don't carry on with an air strike if a civilian is in the area, the IDF target them. It is pretty much a joke.
Dunno if it were in afghanistan, but the US did nomb funerals of people they bombed away, yes? And they bombed people who were trying to help people who were hit by the original strike.

But yeah, this isn't about the war crimes of the US military. Its about the IDF. And the IDF is doing a lot of wtong rightnow.
 
Can I have a source on it? I have never heard of a single time when an IDF soldier used a citizen as a human shield.

I've seen a picture of an Israeli soldier standing next to their military truck with a palestinian tied up to the hood of the truck. I am sure someone can find it on google.
 
let's parse some facts:



So, is there a difference between a 'human shield' that you but between you and incoming ordinance and a 'human shield' that you send to tell some guy he's gonna be arrested? I don't condone either practice, but I don't think they carry quite the same weight...
Indeed, but while there isn't a translation for the hebrew definition of Nohal shahen on wiki, I'll just give some quotes from it:
"in this procedure, a relative of the terorrist, or its neighbour, is demanded by the IDF to knock on the door and ask the terrorist to turn himself in. IDF's assumption is that the terrorist would not want to kill his friend or relative. In the hundreds of times this has been used, one person has been killed from a terrorist's fire."

There is also a significant difference between using your own people, than taking relatives of a terrorist to make him come quietly. It's not legal anymore, so the IDF claim they don't use it. Of that I'm truly not sure, so I can't speak regarding this matter.
 
I just throw my hands so high in the air I could touch the moon.

I'm glad that I was able to induce a release of cortisol in a stranger with words on the internet. How'd that feel?

Instead of righteous indignation, why don't you, you know, add something the conversation? Some of use realize the world is not black and white, and we're trying to discover the facts and form an opinion, rather than ranting about the one we already have. Help out a little....

I'm not surprised to get no answer after posting the links elhav asked for.

Seriously? he just responded to my discussion about YOUR link. Righteous indeed...
 
Indeed, but while there isn't a translation for the hebrew definition of Nohal shahen on wiki, I'll just give some quotes from it:
"in this procedure, a relative of the terorrist, or its neighbour, is demanded by the IDF to knock on the door and ask the terrorist to turn himself in. IDF's assumption is that the terrorist would not want to kill his friend or relative. In the hundreds of times this has been used, one person has been killed from a terrorist's fire."

There is also a significant difference between using your own people, than taking relatives of a terrorist to make him come quietly. It's not legal anymore, so the IDF claim they don't use it. Of that I'm truly not sure, so I can't speak regarding this matter.

Can't believe you are pointing out difference in matters of using Human Shields.
 
Err this is a police truck. It could have been an arrest of some sort...I'm not sure it really counts, but maybe it does.
Even then it would wrong. It cant be right for the police to chain suspects or criminals at the front of the car as shield or at all.
 
You are aware that your lovely army has performed more war crimes than most other armies around, yes?

Afganistan, Iraq etc.

How many civilians were killed there? By your army. Should I say now that the U.S army's policy is also causing civilian casualties? Doesn't that also supposedly make you a "fucking disgrace"?

The US isn't free of blame by any means but Israel makes us look like saints. US didn't bomb shelters full of women and children and the US didn't make it a practice to level buildings as "punishment".
 
Indeed, but while there isn't a translation for the hebrew definition of Nohal shahen on wiki, I'll just give some quotes from it:
"in this procedure, a relative of the terorrist, or its neighbour, is demanded by the IDF to knock on the door and ask the terrorist to turn himself in. IDF's assumption is that the terrorist would not want to kill his friend or relative. In the hundreds of times this has been used, one person has been killed from a terrorist's fire."

There is also a significant difference between using your own people, than taking relatives of a terrorist to make him come quietly. It's not legal anymore, so the IDF claim they don't use it. Of that I'm truly not sure, so I can't speak regarding this matter.

Wow. Soldiers hiding behind civilians.
 
Denial, plain and simple.
Seriously? he just responded to my discussion about YOUR link. Righteous indeed...
It sure is nice to live in denial
Can't believe you are pointing out difference in matters of using Human Shields.
I feel it should be compared, because the cases are vastly different from each other.
Using your own citizens as a shield is a cowardly act, while hostages are something that has been happening since forever. Also in all the times this happened, only one was killed from a terrorist fire, where as we cannot be sure how many citiznes were killed thanks to Hamas' procedure.

I don't think it's a moral procedure by the way
 
I'm glad that I was able to induce a release of cortisol in a stranger with words on the internet. How'd that feel?

Instead of righteous indignation, why don't you, you know, add something the conversation? Some of use realize the world is not black and white, and we're trying to discover the facts and form an opinion, rather than ranting about the one we already have. Help out a little....



Seriously? he just responded to my discussion about YOUR link. Righteous indeed...
After all that rambling about me and what I'm doing wrong you calling me righteous? lmao Please, continue with your shtick here, it should be pretty easy for you to ignore someone like me.
 
It sure is nice to live in denial

I feel it should be compared, because the cases are vastly different from each other.
Using your own citizens as a shield is a cowardly act, while hostages are something that has been happening since forever. Also in all the times this happened, only one was killed from a terrorist fire, where as we cannot be sure how many citiznes were killed thanks to Hamas' procedure.

I'm lost here, wth. Both are examples of humans being used as Human Shields, how is the one example less horrible than the other? Does te death number being only 1 justify that approach for you?
 
It sure is nice to live in denial

I feel it should be compared, because the cases are vastly different from each other.
Using your own citizens as a shield is a cowardly act, while hostages are something that has been happening since forever. Also in all the times this happened, only one was killed from a terrorist fire, where as we cannot be sure how many citiznes were killed thanks to Hamas' procedure.

let's not get carried away, they're still civilians and the practice has been outlawed, but i frankly do see a moral difference between the two, especially given the risks of death that come with each. As someone Chariot minced his words, they're both not acceptable on a moral basis, but one might be worse than the other....

I'm lost here, wth. Both are examples of humans being used as Human Shields, how is the one example less horrible than the other? Does te death number being only 1 justify that approach for you?


Actually yes. Both horrible, but it requires some kind of examination. To force someone onto the roof of building while the militant is still in it is inviting certain death, while the knocking policy does not invite certain death, as has been proved by the facts. Why's that hard to see. The point is that if Hamas has used human shields, you can't say "bbbbbbut IDF did too". even if they were equivalent that argument doesn't work, but in this case they're not even equivalent.
 
let's not get carried away, they're still civilians and the practice has been outlawed, but i frankly do see a moral difference between the two, especially given the risks of death that come with each. As someone Chariot minced his words, they're both not acceptable on a moral basis, but one might be worse than the other....

This does not mean it's the only manner in which IDF soldiers have used human shields or have used civilians to carry out dangerous acts.

And in the current conflict it's the word of the IDF against objective inestigations by for example the HRW fhat concluded there is not enough evidence of Hamas using human shields.
 
The US isn't free of blame by any means but Israel makes us look like saints. US didn't bomb shelters full of women and children and the US didn't make it a practice to level buildings as "punishment".
Here's a nice read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001–present)

And as I mentioned, IDF claimed that there were terrorists in that building and that the citizens were warned before the attack. I cannot bring a completely solid proof of that, but neither can you bring a proof that I'm wrong.
 
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