Vincent Alexander
Member
What a fucked up system we have.
Man shoots and kills intruder. Police determine she was not pregnant.
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rokkerkory
Member
How does anyone have time to compute when something like this happens?
Charges haven't been filed against him yet. They most likely will be.
I don't understand what you're asking. A man who killed his wife after finding her in bed with the mailman might say he did the right thing, and it would still be manslaughter.
MWS Natural
Member
Dafuck kind of shit is this? So if you break the law with someone and they get killed you are responsible?
Vincent Alexander
Member
KHarvey...Mimic...I have no clue what you two are even arguing anymore, or what side you're arguing on (if there are sides). Shit is hurting my brain. Might be time I get some sleep.
Not if his reasoning wasn't obscured, and it's hard to argue your reasoning was obscured if after the fact you still believe the same thing.
Angelus Errare
Banned
You just made an argument and story that I never presented. Who's breaking into someone's house to seek help? Like really. He states that simply being on someone's property is enough reason to play judge, jury and executor.
It's not.
At all.
If someone walks on your property seeking help and the first thing you do is shoot them, two things.
1. You're a murder unarguably (and a bloody psychopath!)
2. You've got major issues.
And by you, I mean anyone who believes a person simply being on your property gives you the right to execute them as ProfessorMoran insinuates.
What in the fuck?
Edit: Damn, had a family member hit with this now that I think about it, and it was some life damaging bullshit frankly.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Yep. Felony murder. Maybe.
I always find threads like these interesting. Everyone's in the comfort of their own home at their computers giving rational thought out responses of what they would have done, or what should have been done in these type of situations.
It's ironic in this case that robbers tend to go after victims they perceive to be weak, something she hoped would've worked in her favor as a last resort to save her life. She was hoping that he would show her some sympathy. If you're pregnant, decide to break and enter someone's home, and attack them when you get caught in the process, then I have no sympathy for whatever happens to you. You clearly did not give a fuck about the safety/life of your victim, nor life of your unborn child until your life itself was threatened, so why should a fuck be given about yours? They've violated him more than once before, yet they keep coming back because they perceive him as weak and put very little stake in him retaliating. They fucked up. Some lessons are learned the hard way.
I'm not saying the old man was right in the way he handled the situation, but I understand.
It's ironic in this case that robbers tend to go after victims they perceive to be weak, something she hoped would've worked in her favor as a last resort to save her life. She was hoping that he would show her some sympathy. If you're pregnant, decide to break and enter someone's home, and attack them when you get caught in the process, then I have no sympathy for whatever happens to you. You clearly did not give a fuck about the safety/life of your victim, nor life of your unborn child until your life itself was threatened, so why should a fuck be given about yours? They've violated him more than once before, yet they keep coming back because they perceive him as weak and put very little stake in him retaliating. They fucked up. Some lessons are learned the hard way.
I'm not saying the old man was right in the way he handled the situation, but I understand.
If you're committing a crime and someone dies because of it, even if it's your accomplice, you're going to get hit with murder.
Old man is definitely a murderer, he should be charged as well. Although, I don't think he should be sent to some high security prison for the rest of his life.
What if said pregnant woman was stealing so she could feed her baby and get diapers? Desperate people steal, no one just wakes up and decides it'll be fun to rob someone. Don't just assume someone who commits a crime is automatic scum. I use to know a drug dealer who used his drug money to pay his college tuition and now he's a software engineer.
speculawyer
Member
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
Never heard of an accomplice before?
Vincent Alexander
Member
I understand, but surely there is a better charge that can be brought against the accomplice? I guess not, but it just feels wrong to me. I suppose the old man can still be charged himself as you said, but charging the accomplice to me almost feels like the blame---not sure if blame is the right word---is being taken from the old man.
Well, you probably bring yourself back to the situation. I mean, he felt those emotions so I would imagine it would be hard to tear yourself away from them and then come to the "rational" conclusion that it was wrong.
WonkyPanda
Member
Psh, please son.
Can you name the inherently dangerous felonies?
KH is right, MIMIC. Simply because a rational person would have been provoked doesn't mean that he was actually provoked. And, if it is believed he was provoked, then it has to be shown that was no longer under the "heat of passion" when he pulled the trigger (a subjective test). If he wasn't, looks a lot like second-degree, at the least.
BARRK =p
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
Of course, why would you take a pregnant lady to such high risk activity.
Let us not forget that she assaulted and terrorized this man, and this isn't the only time she has done this. She showed zero compassion for those she terrorized, and didn't deserve compassion to be given to her. Believe me her death was no great loss, and overall humanity is better off with evil like her gone. Those who would go around terrorizing the most vulnerable are evil, and that is what she did.
WonkyPanda
Member
If you really want to get dirty in here, time to start talking about merger and felony murder.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Assault and robbery?
Well, the shooter might still (hopefully!) get charged with murder/manslaughter/whatever and from what I understand, the burglar being charged with murder is just standard procedure. It's not even new as it's right there in the article the OP linked:
I have to say a lot of posts in this thread just scare me. "I value human life, but these lives were not particularly valuable" (you either value human life or you don't). "Expect to get shot when you steal" (as if it somehow justifies the shooter, who's the only one pushing the trigger in the end). And especially those posts saying that "death is sufficient punishment for burglary/assault and robbery/etc" and that "the fleeing person could have pulled a gun, so I would have to shoot them too if I were in his shoes". All I want to say is that these points of view just feel incredibly alien to me.
WonkyPanda
Member
MIMIC had it. Generally, it's "BARRK"
Burglary, Arson, Rape, Robbery, Kidnapping.
Many states are doing away with FMR, though. Things get dicey.
EDIT: I don't even think the MPC has FMR
The defense is claiming he only did what he did because he was under the influence of intense emotion and his reasoning was obscured. If, after the fact, he doesn't recognize what he did was wrong, how can that argument be made? The defense requires implicit acceptance that the act was unreasonable!
rokkerkory
Member
Right there with you. +100
This wasn't burglary this was assault and robbery, this was terrorizing a elderly man. Calling this a burglary is like calling rape, sexual harassment.
Angelus Errare
Banned
For real, I'm starting to imagine that many people here are one heartbreak/upset/insult away from AKing a bunch of people.
TheRedSnifit
Member
There's a lot of cognitive leaps here, to say nothing of the fact that you're putting zero burden on the prosecution.
endresults
Member
What do non-Americans think when they see this? Man we're idiots.
Says the people who ignore the fact that this woman went around terrorizing assaulting an elderly man.
Feel free to ask questions if you don't understand.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Shooting someone in the back (more than once!) is one of the most cowardly things you can do.
So is terrorizing an elderly man. She got what she gave.
No one is ignoring that fact. We don't think assaulting someone means you deserve to be shot in the back.
Not really. The old man is alive. She is dead. So is her baby.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Nope. Not facing someone you are about to kill and shooting them with their back turned to you (and running away) is far more cowardly, whatever else she did notwithstanding.
stealing property does not equate to shooting someone in the back, no matter what.
Random_Stranger
Neo Member
Agreed! They don't steal and terrorize him in his home, and their is 0 chance he would have used his weapon on them.
This case is a perfect example of why using "victim blaming" to hand-wave away others' arguments is problematic.
If I said "A lot of victim blaming happening in this thread," who am I implying is the victim?
Fact is, situations are very often complex, and often there is no clear single victim and single perpetrator, but often a bad choice followed by another bad choice followed by another bad choice, etc. in escalating fashion.
If a person has no or little fault in the matter, argue why they have no or little fault. Don't dismiss others' points with "victim blaming" allegations. The merits of arguments should stand on their own, without the need for dismissive labels.
If I said "A lot of victim blaming happening in this thread," who am I implying is the victim?
Fact is, situations are very often complex, and often there is no clear single victim and single perpetrator, but often a bad choice followed by another bad choice followed by another bad choice, etc. in escalating fashion.
If a person has no or little fault in the matter, argue why they have no or little fault. Don't dismiss others' points with "victim blaming" allegations. The merits of arguments should stand on their own, without the need for dismissive labels.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Are there any legal precedents for your claim?
What does one have to do with the other? You can act crazy and even if say you acted appropriately, it was STILL nonetheless crazy.
....which is why your rage is presumed in certain types of provocation (like the adultry example and the battery example)
All right, I edited my post accordingly, because I do feel that killing is excessive response for assault and robbery too. Let me quote your later post though:
By saying "she did not deserve any compassion given to her" do you mean "she deserved to be murdered" (not necessarily in this particular way, mind you)? As for the latter part of your post, what kind of morally absolute nonsense is that? I don't think any society would get very far by deciding who is "evil" and who is not all the time and by subsequently determining whether someone's death is a "great loss to humanity". Going by that logic, in the eventuality of the old man not killing that woman, she should have been put to death by the police, because "the humanity would be better off etc etc". This weird bloodthirst is exactly what scares me.
If someone catches someone raping this daughter, and that person tries to flee. Is it cowardly to shoot them in the back and kill them as the flee?
It doesn't give him the right to take out the baby. Killing a pregnant woman in the back just because she terrorized you is one thing, but is he justified in the death of the baby?
My thoughts exactly. They were scum. They broke the law by doing what they did and I have no real sympathy for them.
Fair point about the latter but the "mother" obviously didn't care much about putting her future child in a criminal situation.
Yes. Yes, of course.
TheRedSnifit
Member
We don't even know if she was actually pregnant, and we won't until the autopsy tomorrow. Probably warrants a title change.
Fenderputty
Banned
On an eye for an eye scale, murdering somone for burglary is like taking a penis for watching porn.
There's some straight scary people in this thread.
There's some straight scary people in this thread.
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