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[GYODX]

Yes Hamas rockets are illegal

Now.
What about freedom of Gaza civilians to move out of Gaza and into Gaza

Lack of Freedom to trade

Lack of Freedom for financial transactions for businesses

Israeli settlements in disputed areas

Destructions of homes of Hamas relatives who are not Hamas members

What about the ones above . Are you going to denounce them ?

Sure. I'm not sure why on Earth people would assume that just because I'm condemning Hamas that means I somehow think all of Israel's crimes are justified.

It seems to strike a nerve with some people to see someone who's not talking about Israel's crimes exclusively. Nuance is apparently not welcome in this thread, and anything other than overly-emotional rhetoric about how evil Israel is is interpreted as a defense of Israeli war crimes.

 

[Toxi]

History and recent events points to a vicious cycle. Realistically I don't see either side wanting fulltime peace and a solution to this matter unfortunately. It's basically an avalanche and a cycle of revenge killings.

Before some asshole killed three kids and the Israeli media and military ran away with it, things were looking up.

 

[BLunted]

Damn civilians getting in the way of the bombs.

Hey, I dont like seeing the civilians die, but what is Israel supposed to do? Absorb rocket fire till the end of time? Allow tunnels to be dug further in to Israel uncontested?

Many seem to be overlooking the most simple truth that if Hamas really cared about their citizens, they would capitulate. I want to see the conflict end, and the blockade lifted, but that cannot be done without Gaza being de-militarized. That's not even debatable.

 

[Toxi]

Hey, I dont like seeing the civilians die, but what is Israel supposed to do? Absorb rocket fire till the end of time? Allow tunnels to be dug further in to Israel uncontested.

Many seem to be overlooking the most simple truth that if Hamas really cared about their citizens, they would capitulate. I want to see the conflict end, and the blockade lifted, but that cannot be done without Gaza being de-militarized. That's not even debatable.

NOT BOMB FUCKING HOSPITALS OR SHELTERS

Also, how are things going in the West Bank after they demilitarized?

 

[zer0blivion]

This is incredibly relevant, even 25 years later.

Debate Panel on Israel: Norman Finkelstein & Wolf Blitzer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjfG8-teSc0&list=PLAC23E433CCD2ACC7

 

[Maninthemirror]

Sure. I'm not sure why on Earth people would assume that just because I'm condemning Hamas that means I somehow think all of Israel's crimes are justified.

It seems to strike a nerve with some people to see someone who's not talking about Israel's crimes exclusively. Nuance is apparently not welcome in this thread, and anything other than overly-emotional rhetoric about how evil Israel is is interpreted as a defense of Israeli war crimes.

You must have missed many posts here which say one side is not to blame when both IDF and Hamas are to blame

 

[Maninthemirror]

Hey, I dont like seeing the civilians die, but what is Israel supposed to do? Absorb rocket fire till the end of time? Allow tunnels to be dug further in to Israel uncontested.

Many seem to be overlooking the most simple truth that if Hamas really cared about their citizens, they would capitulate. I want to see the conflict end, and the blockade lifted, but that cannot be done without Gaza being de-militarized. That's not even debatable.

Rockets started in 2001, Israel still killed civilians before that

Since 2001 30 Israeli civilians have died from rocket attacks

Since 2001 more than 5000 Palestinian civilians have died in retaliation to those rocket attacks

What a balance

 

[Skyzard]

Hey, I dont like seeing the civilians die, but what is Israel supposed to do? Absorb rocket fire till the end of time? Allow tunnels to be dug further in to Israel uncontested.

Many seem to be overlooking the most simple truth that if Hamas really cared about their citizens, they would capitulate. I want to see the conflict end, and the blockade lifted, but that cannot be done without Gaza being de-militarized. That's not even debatable.

It's supposed to stop building illegal settlements.

It's supposed to lift the blockade on things like foods that aren't frozen, in a place where the electricity regularly gets cut-off (by Israel).

It's supposed to stop persecution of Palestinians.

And Israel is supposed to not kill mostly civilians, causing the survivors to become extremely angry.


If Israel wanted peace, they wouldn't be launching these campaigns with intents of maximum destruction. Especially when Hamas had just recently joined with moderates for better peace talks.

 

[werks]

Hey, I dont like seeing the civilians die, but what is Israel supposed to do? Absorb rocket fire till the end of time? Allow tunnels to be dug further in to Israel uncontested?

Many seem to be overlooking the most simple truth that if Hamas really cared about their citizens, they would capitulate. I want to see the conflict end, and the blockade lifted, but that cannot be done without Gaza being de-militarized. That's not even debatable.

Wow, so it's Hamas fault that Israel kill over a 1000 civilians. If only they would just give up and go back to getting their house destroyed every day by settlers...

 

[LNBL]

The Israeli government wants/needs Hamas to justify their current occupation of Gaza and the Palestinian people.

Hamas needs the Israeli Government and their occupation to justify their rocket attacks on Israel.

What is left in the middle? Innocent civilians. Both Israeli children and Palestinian children
Both Israeli men and Palestinian men
Both Israeli women and Palestinian women

The current conflict has caused 1000 deaths among Palestinians. Innocent civilians not militants and not extremists. People that loved a normal life and lost their children are left with nothing. Is the father that lost his family and then joins Hamas for revenge an extremist? Would an israeli in the same situation also be called an extremist?

 

[Particle Physicist]

Rockets started in 2001, Israel still killed civilians before that

Well, so did Palestinians. The fighting in the region extends quite a bit further back than 2001.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Well, so did Palestinians. The fighting in the region extends quite a bit further back than 2001.

Check the edit

 

[GYODX]

Rockets started in 2001, Israel still killed civilians before that

This is disingenuous. Before there were rockets, Palestinians engaged in more egregious acts of terrorism. Like suicide bombings in civilian centers, hijacking airplanes, etc.

 

[antigoon]

Wow, so it's Hamas fault that Israel kill over a 1000 civilians. If only they would just give up and go back to getting their house destroyed every day by settlers...

This entire situation is the most severe case of victim blaming I've ever seen. I've even read people online today saying that if only Gazans didn't elect Hamas, they wouldn't be blown up!

 

[BLunted]

NOT BOMB FUCKING HOSPITALS OR SHELTERS

Also, how are things going in the West Bank after they demilitarized?

Suicide bombings have plummeted and essentially ended the second Intifada. Mission accomplished.

In regards the the hospital, it is still being investigated. Israel had admitted that it may have been an errant round on their part, but that there is possibility that it was a Hamas rocket that fell short. It has been reported that there have been a few Hamas rockets that have fallen short in the conflict, but were not newsworthy as they didnt result in any casualties.

I am not saying those incidents are excusable, but war is never pretty, and it is always the citizens who pay the heaviest price. There is plenty of blame on both sides.

 

[Maninthemirror]

This is disingenuous. Before there were rockets, Palestinians engaged in more egregious acts of terrorism. Like suicide bombings in civilian centers, hijacking airplanes, etc.

And Israel's response was yet still disporportionate where Palestinians still died in a larger amount. If Israel didnt aim at the rockets before 2001 where did they aim ?

Suicide bombings have plummeted and essentially ended the second Intifada. Mission accomplished.

In regards the the hospital, it is still being investigated. Israel had admitted that it may have been an errant round on their part, but that there is possibility that it was a Hamas rocket that fell short. It has been reported that there have been a few Hamas rockets that have fallen short in the conflict, but were not newsworthy as they didnt result in any casualties.

I am not saying those incidents are excusable, but war is never pretty, and it is always the citizens who pay the heaviest price. There is plenty of blame on both sides.

Suicide bombings have gone away . The result is that thankfully Israeli civilians deaths have gone from couple hundreds per year to single digits but unfortunately Palestinian civilian deaths have gone from few hundreds to thousands . If anything it's gotten worse for civilians after the fence . Why ? Because Israel stops civilians from leaving Gaza

 

[collige]

Suicide bombings have plummeted and essentially ended the second Intifada. Mission accomplished.

In regards the the hospital, it is still being investigated. Israel had admitted that it may have been an errant round on their part, but that there is possibility that it was a Hamas rocket that fell short. It has been reported that there have been a few Hamas rockets that have fallen short in the conflict, but were not newsworthy as they didnt result in any casualties.

I am not saying those incidents are excusable, but war is never pretty, and it is always the citizens who pay the heaviest price. There is plenty of blame on both sides.

Israel also said that they were aiming at Hamas members who fired rockets from nearby. They can't even keep their own story straight.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

The Israeli government wants/needs Hamas to justify their current occupation of Gaza and the Palestinian people.

Hamas needs the Israeli Government and their occupation to justify their rocket attacks on Israel.

What is left in the middle? Innocent civilians. Both Israeli children and Palestinian children
Both Israeli men and Palestinian men
Both Israeli women and Palestinian women

Add
Hamas also gets load of money to "defend" itself also Hamas leaders lived outside of Gaza "living the five star good life in Qatar and so"

Israel gets a lot of tax dollars to defend itself

They need each other for financial support from other countries

 

[Toxi]

Suicide bombings have plummeted and essentially ended the second Intifada. Mission accomplished.

And Israel is still building illegal settlements on the West Bank and oppressing the people there.

Do you understand how these extreme militant organizations like Hamas keep power? They simply point to what happens in the West Bank. If Israel wants peace, they need to show that peace works.

In regards the the hospital, it is still being investigated. Israel had admitted that it may have been an errant round on their part, but that there is possibility that it was a Hamas rocket that fell short. It has been reported that there have been a few Hamas rockets that have fallen short in the conflict, but were not newsworthy as they didnt result in any casualties.

I am not saying those incidents are excusable, but war is never pretty, and it is always the citizens who pay the heaviest price. There is plenty of blame on both sides.

Which side is my government donating 3 billion + a year to to bomb hospitals and shelters?

You can't argue "there is plenty of blame on both sides" without ignoring how one side is being mindlessly supported by the US government. You can't excuse attacks on civilian centers with disgusting words like "war is never pretty" and then ask the US to keep sending military money over.

 

[Maninthemirror]

War is never pretty is the defense people used who supported the Vietnam war.
And
Who supported the Iraq war

 

[theignoramus]

Hey, I dont like seeing the civilians die, but what is Israel supposed to do? Absorb rocket fire till the end of time? Allow tunnels to be dug further in to Israel uncontested?

Many seem to be overlooking the most simple truth that if Hamas really cared about their citizens, they would capitulate. I want to see the conflict end, and the blockade lifted, but that cannot be done without Gaza being de-militarized. That's not even debatable.

Israel provoked the rocket fire that started the hostilities by killing 6 Hamas men.

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/Data/articles/Art_20665/E_105_14_1399932700.pdf

Since the second half of June 2014, when Operation Brothers' Keeper began, the terrorist organizations operating in the Gaza Strip, including Hamas, have
bombarded Israel with intensive rocket fire. The rocket fire, the most extensive
since Operation Pillar of Defense (November 2012), increased significantly after July
7, when Israeli Air Force (IAF) aircraft attacked a Hamas tunnel used for terrorist
purposes. The Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' military-terrorist wing, planned
to use the tunnel to carry out an attack inside Israel (IDF Spokesman, July 7, 2014).
Six Hamas terrorist operatives who were in the tunnel at the time of the attack were
killed.1 Hamas threatened revenge and the rocket fire attacking Israel increased on
June 8.

Israel did the exact same thing in 2012. Bombed Hamas men, provoking retaliatory rocket fire, and thus began Operation Cast Lead.
How can Israel "stop the rocket fire?" Stop provoking it!!!!

 

[LNBL]

Add
Hamas also gets load of money to "defend" itself also Hamas leaders lived outside of Gaza "living the five star good life in Qatar and so"

Israel gets a lot of tax dollars to defend itself

They need each other for financial support from other countries

Agree,

Which is why the argument " this side wants peace and other side does not" is bullshit.

 

[BLunted]

Wow, so it's Hamas fault that Israel kill over a 1000 civilians. If only they would just give up and go back to getting their house destroyed every day by settlers...

I would argue at least half the blame is theirs. I am not saying what happened in the west bank in regards to the 3 Israeli teen and the Palestinian teen wasnt shitty, but are you telling me that the ONLY RECOURSE was to fire rockets from Gaza? There was absolutely no possibility of de-escalating though talks and international pressure?

If Hamas had accepted the original Egyptian ceasefire, a lot of this could have been avoided. It was after that cease fire, Israel learned the actualy extent of the terror tunnels and got a serious hard-on about it.

ALso you are mixing west bank with Gaza. There are no settlers in Gaza where 1000 people have been killed, so the people in Gaza could not "go back to getting their house destroyed every day by settlers". Settlers is a west bank issue(which I personally dont approve of).

It's important to remember that the West Bank and Gaza, and that Hamas and PA are not the same.

 

[GYODX]

You must have missed many posts here which say one side is not to blame when both IDF and Hamas are to blame

And you must have missed the part where I got dog-piled for citing the Geneva Convention and linking to an article by UN Watch, an accredited NGO. It's kinda hard to feel like dissenting opinions are allowed after that.

 

[BLunted]

If anything it's gotten worse for civilians after the fence . Why ? Because Israel stops civilians from leaving Gaza

As I mentioned in a previous post, I am in favour of the blockade being lifted, just that the Gaza would have to be demilitarized, and even then there would still have to be checkpoints and such until both sides can begin to trust each other more.

 

[Chumly]

Suicide bombings have plummeted and essentially ended the second Intifada. Mission accomplished.

In regards the the hospital, it is still being investigated. Israel had admitted that it may have been an errant round on their part, but that there is possibility that it was a Hamas rocket that fell short. It has been reported that there have been a few Hamas rockets that have fallen short in the conflict, but were not newsworthy as they didnt result in any casualties.

I am not saying those incidents are excusable, but war is never pretty, and it is always the citizens who pay the heaviest price. There is plenty of blame on both sides.

No its not. Its not possible at all. Israel admitted to shelling the hospital. Its absolutely disgusting that people like you will go to extreme lengths to excuse whatever Israel does. The fact that you are still trying to spout this nonsense says a lot.

 

[Toxi]

As I mentioned in a previous post, I am in favour of the blockade being lifted, just that the Gaza would have to be demilitarized, and even then there would still have to be checkpoints and such until both sides can begin to trust each other more.

I don't think you understand how trust works.

 

[BLunted]

You can't excuse attacks on civilian centers with disgusting words like "war is never pretty" and then ask the US to keep sending military money over.

Can you provide an example of a war that was "pretty"? If there is in fact one, it would be the exception, not the rule. It's shitty, but it's the truth.

If you are an American and have issues with her foreign policies, I would suggest contacting your congressperson or march in a protest or something. That is your right.

 

[docbon]

This is incredibly relevant, even 25 years later.

Debate Panel on Israel: Norman Finkelstein & Wolf Blitzer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjfG8-teSc0&list=PLAC23E433CCD2ACC7

I actually watched that and his interview with Adam Holm last night. Good stuff.

 

[Toxi]

Can you provide an example of a war that was "pretty"? If there is in fact one, it would be the exception, not the rule. It's shitty, but it's the truth.

You are excusing attacks on hospitals and evacuation shelters with "war isn't pretty".

What the fuck? No, war is not pretty. That doesn't mean we should accept attacks on civilian centers with no evidence to back them up.

If you are an American and have issues with her foreign policies, I would suggest contacting your congressperson or march in a protest or something. That is your right.

I did that.

But as long as people like you defend Israel, it will be harder to convince them that these acts should not have our support.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

Sanctions should be placed on both Israel and Hamas by the international community and the money should be used to rebuild Palestinians homes in Gaza

 

[BLunted]

No its not. Its not possible at all. Israel admitted to shelling the hospital. Its absolutely disgusting that people like you will go to extreme lengths to excuse whatever Israel does. The fact that you are still trying to spout this nonsense says a lot.

The part you bolded was reported by CNN today. It's good to learn that Hamas is completely infallible when it comes to rocket technology. Maybe NASA should hit them up since Russia had locked out America from using their rockets to reach the ISS.

Well, I am out, you people are too emotional and irrational. Your hearts are in the right place though.

Lates.

 

[zer0blivion]

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/493150224962301955

 

[Messofanego]

Jeremy Bowen's Gaza notebook: I saw no evidence of Hamas using Palestinians as human shields

The BBC's Middle East editor reports from Gaza.

 

[JordanN]

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/493150224962301955

Hamas: And we came here not as conquerors, but as liberators to return control of this city to the people.

"But we can't accept peace for some reason."

 

[Chumly]

The part you bolded was reported by CNN today. It's good to learn that Hamas is completely infallible when it comes to rocket technology. Maybe NASA should hit them up since Russia had locked out America from using their rockets to reach the ISS.

Well, I am out, you people are too emotional and irrational. Your hearts are in the right place though.

Lates.

???? That's information cnn was reporting when it first happened. Plus it was misinformation from the IDF itself. We've gotten new information since then and not even the IDF could manage to blame it on falling rockets.


It's amazing that people can apply this level of sceptism that IDF does something bad. We are seeing entire cities leveled and a Hamas dressed up as a women proves that these civilian deaths are human shields.

 

[GYODX]

???? That's information cnn was reporting when it first happened. Plus it was misinformation from the IDF itself. We've gotten new information since then and not even the IDF could manage to blame it on falling rockets.


It's amazing that people can apply this level of sceptism that IDF does something bad. We are seeing entire cities leveled and a Hamas dressed up as a women proves that these civilian deaths are human shields.

How very selective of you to conveniently ignore the rest of the points in that article I posted that prove Hamas uses human shields. Just gonna ignore those and pretend the first paragraph is the only one that mattered, huh?

 

[shinobi602]

Hamas: And we came here not as conquerors, but as liberators to return control of this city to the people.

http://i2.minus.com/iRMc9ZCXLosS9.jpg[/img


"But we can't accept peace for some reason."[/QUOTE]

Ah yes, "peace". We all know Israel is admirable and reliable in that sector.

 

[zer0blivion]

I just saw an IDF fluff piece on CNN. Disgraceful.

 

[m_shortpants]

Hamas: And we came here not as conquerors, but as liberators to return control of this city to the people.

"But we can't accept peace for some reason."

Didn't Israel just reject a ceasefire yesterday as well? Come off it.

 

[GYODX]

Ah yes, "peace". We all know Israel is admirable in that sector.

Yup. Just ask Egypt and Jordan. And then compare that to Israel's relationship with Syria, with whom they're technically still at war.

The notion that Israel wants peace and is willing to make conceptions for it (the Sinai) has more than enough precedent.

 

[LNBL]

Hamas: And we came here not as conquerors, but as liberators to return control of this city to the people.

"But we can't accept peace for some reason."

Israel can keep their version of peace to themselves. Opression and murder is not peace.

 

[shinobi602]

Yup. Just ask Egypt and Jordan.

I'd rather ask the Palestinians since they're the ones going undergoing life under the "peace".

 

[Quotient]

No one gave a serious answer before, what is the definition of a human shield? How does one determine reliably if Hamas is doing so in the heat of battle?

 

[Hamlet Machine]

"Use of civilians as ‘human shields’

On several occasions Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians, including children, as “human shields” during military operations, or forced them to carry out dangerous tasks. Israeli soldiers also launched attacks from near inhabited houses.
For two days from 5 January, Israeli forces held Yousef Abu ‘Ida, his wife Leila and their nine children as “human shields” in their home in Hay al-Salam, east of Jabalia, while they used the house as a military position. They then forced the family out and destroyed the house."

This is an excerpt from a report made in 2010 by Amnesty International following operation "Cast Lead". Full report here : http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2010
Now, and because I see too much of that "Hamas is using Gaza inhabitants as human shield" stuff, if the Hamas, a "terrorist" organisation, does that, what does that say of the israeli army ?

 

[zer0blivion]

All they want are basic human rights. Is that so much to ask?

 

[Akainu]

Hamas: And we came here not as conquerors, but as liberators to return control of this city to the people.

"But we can't accept peace for some reason."

Suddenly your avatar makes perfect sense.

 

[GYODX]

I'd rather ask the Palestinians since they're the ones going undergoing life under the "peace".

That's what I mean. Israel and the Palestinians have not yet negotiated a formal peace treaty, which is why the killing is still going on.

Bringing up Egypt and Jordan serves to disprove that quip you made about Israel not being admirable in the peace sector. Syria, Egypt and Jordan had all declared war on Israel numerous times. Among those, Syria is the only country with whom Israel has not yet negotiated a formal peace treaty.

Now of those three, guess which one is still subject to occasional Israeli bombings.

This just goes to show that there is no reason to believe Israel would not respect a peace treaty if one were to ever be negotiated with the Palestinians. They might even be able to hold a constructive relationship at one point. That's the hope.

 

[Quotient]

"Use of civilians as ‘human shields’

On several occasions Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians, including children, as “human shields” during military operations, or forced them to carry out dangerous tasks. Israeli soldiers also launched attacks from near inhabited houses.
For two days from 5 January, Israeli forces held Yousef Abu ‘Ida, his wife Leila and their nine children as “human shields” in their home in Hay al-Salam, east of Jabalia, while they used the house as a military position. They then forced the family out and destroyed the house."

This is an excerpt from a report made in 2010 by Amnesty International following operation "Cast Lead". Full report here : http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2010
Now, and because I see too much of that "Hamas is using Gaza inhabitants as human shield" stuff, if the Hamas, a "terrorist" organisation, does that, what does that say of the israeli army ?

In those situations, the soliders should be punished, and i hope it is not the policy of the IDF.

So the definition of human shield is:

Forcing a civilian to carry out a dangerous task
Literally using a civilian to shield you from an attack
Launching an attack from an area occupied by a civilian

Would that be a correct summation of what a human shield is?

So my next thought is, how are journalists or NGO's able to accurately state whether Hamas is or isn't doing the above. It would seem to be difficult to gather first hand accounts without being in the firing zone.

 

[JordanN]

Israel can keep their version of peace to themselves. Opression and murder is not peace.

Do you consider this "oppression and murder"?