Cops shoot and kill man holding toy gun in Walmart
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BronsonLee
Member
I think we should immediately take anything the Ritchies said with a grain of salt now.
They're now entering some murky ass territory where, at worst case scenario, they filed a completely false call with police that ended in two innocent people dying, and now they're trying to justify it in the press because if they don't, they're in deep trouble.
Best case scenario, they exhibited some astounding lack of judgement in following an individual who was pointing a gun at people. You follow people who you think are shoplifting at fucking TJ Maxx, not walking around WalMart with a gun
They're now entering some murky ass territory where, at worst case scenario, they filed a completely false call with police that ended in two innocent people dying, and now they're trying to justify it in the press because if they don't, they're in deep trouble.
Best case scenario, they exhibited some astounding lack of judgement in following an individual who was pointing a gun at people. You follow people who you think are shoplifting at fucking TJ Maxx, not walking around WalMart with a gun
Carry is fine. Pointing at people (allegedly) is not.
biggersmaller
Banned
Think about the bolded text. How do I know they didn't make it up? No, the question is - how do you make the assumption given the facts that they are essentially racist liars? I also would have called the cops. Liberal guilt, its potential to be a pellet gun, or Walmarts inventory of said item would have nothing to do with it - because it looks real and it shouldn't be there. Would do the same with those idiots in Target for the same reason.
He purchased and had on his person a very realistic pellet gun, corroborating an eyewitness account. That is strong enough evidence.
What you point out as evidence of racism - which are the testimonies of his girlfriend and the mother of his children, one who was in a different part of the store and the other on the phone with him. Even those two didn't say it was race related, just that he wasn't carrying that pellet gun. No matter the ethnicity, it's not shocking at all that loved ones are going to say he was innocent. That is not evidence that both the cop and eyewitnesses are lying because they wanted a black man murdered by the law.
I actually believe there is a very real problem with racism and police force in this country, I simply don't appreciate the tone many take here when their preconceived notions are legitimately challenged with evidence.
DoktorEvil
Banned
He was going to "rob the store" and "dehumanize" people with a supposedly military grade weapon? He could've done that with a real pistol and a mask, if that was ever his intention, but big bad military guy didn't assess the situation and listened to his idiotic wife.
I guess being a marine doesn't mean you gotta be smart or something, right?
You don't find it odd that they actively followed this guy around the store? If they thought it was a real gun and the wife was on a slow motor scooter with a broken ankle, wouldn't your first inclination be to scoot the fuck out of there?
These guys saw things that they wanted to see...and now an innocent man is dead because of it. Again, no one else in the store thought anything of it.
He should at least have some situational awareness and basic weapons training...
BruiserBear
Banned
Were there eye-witness claims that he took it out of the box and started making threatening gestures with it?
This is the key question to me. If a person is walking around a store with a weapon that appears to be real, and making threatening gestures with it, it's not shocking to me they got shot. But even as I say that, I still wonder exactly how he reacted when the police confronted him. Was he pointing the barrel of the gun at them? Was he holding it in a shooting stance? Or was he casually holding it while appearing to have no intent to fire?
I would need all of those answers to truly have an opinion on this.
People want to protect themselves from the crazy savings.
But really, these people do it to draw attention to their cause, which is to loosen gun laws and let people carry guns anywhere they want.
It looks stupid because it is.
VanquishUK
Member
Those pictures make me physically sick.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
I absolutely did NOT point out evidence of racism..just more evidence. If family and girlfriend (who I never brought up) may exaggerate someone's innocence, can't someone who is nervous exaggerate what they perceive is a dangerous man in the store? There to only "rob or kill" people?
I brought up the race thing because you, as many others in here, like to bring up how ridiculous and tired y'all are of race being brought up..that is all. I wish you guys didn't have to deal with that inconvenience..
Well, the police and witnesses can say that they fucked up and killed an innocent man, leading to lawsuits and possible criminal charges, or they can say he was assaulting shoppers and bask in the praise of quick decision making. Which do you think they'll pick?
biggersmaller
Banned
I guess I'm simply not willing to make that leap in logic from overly nosy/concerned shoppers and cops to "racists imagine a threat so an innocent man can die." The self-righteous ridicule bothers me more than the differing in opinion given the facts we have.
DoktorEvil
Banned
No fucking kidding.
I'm finding it difficult to place blame solely on the cops, especially if they're not trained to deal with someone reported to be seen with military grade weapons.
Edit: There HAS to be video footage of this. Walmart is paranoid about theft, they'll have it.
BruiserBear
Banned
I'm not asking for the police's take on this. I'd love to see quotes from shoppers in that store.
biggersmaller
Banned
You're right, you pointed out other evidence - then later mentioned race without connecting the two. My bad.
It is absolutely true that in the same way a family would exaggerate - so could the witnesses. The difference is, if he was carrying that pellet gun - then the facts are on the side of the witnesses/police.
block tower
Member
given America's police history with black people i don't think it's far fetched to think of race in these situations. im not even calling the cop racist, what i am saying is that race in general may have lead to this encounter ending in a death. like i said in a previous comment, no shots were fired by the victim and somehow he's dropped in the Walmart, yet we have the white guy out in CO that shot up a movie theater and made it to the police station for booking. i wonder what the difference is between these two situations? my point while not every cop is racist, and im sure many aren't, that doesn't mean race doesn't play a factor in how these types of issues are approached by cops.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Thus, the police may act on faulty/flawed eyewitness accounts of the goings on. As long as we treat this evenly, I have no problems. I just don't like the idea that some of us supposedly "ignoring" one side, when there is clearly another.
I'm probably late in responding to this since the thread is from yesterday, but I thought toy guns had to have orange tips to help prevent this sort of thing. Really awful story.
Edit: I see it was apparently an Airsoft gun. I don't begin to know the difference between guns -- never owned or shot a real one (I had one of those lever action BB guns as a kid though), but that whole Airsoft gun industry seems crazy. They need to modify those as well to make it immediately evident that it is not capable of firing a bullet. I don't even know what those things fire.. is it paintballs?
Still no video?
I for one feel much safer knowing that couple is cleaning up the mean streets of Starbucks.
I for one feel much safer knowing that couple is cleaning up the mean streets of Starbucks.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Then people started to paint their real gun tips in orange to confuse cops. And then things get weird
There is no chance in fuck that these people will accept that they directly led an innocent man to his death. Not in this country.
quik killa
Member
From some of the reports that have come out and the little bit that can be heard from the 911 call, it seems to me that the officers confronted Crawford with his back turned, said something like "Down, put the gun down," Crawford started to turn around and the officers fired, killing him.
I don't know how much of the above is accurate, but it seems similar to the story somebody posted a couple of pages back about the boy shot and killed in CA for having a pellet gun.
If the situation did play out like this, I feel that this has a lot to do with police training/procedures. Sure police have a challenging and dangerous job, but this scene could have ended peacefully if it was handled differently.
I don't know how much of the above is accurate, but it seems similar to the story somebody posted a couple of pages back about the boy shot and killed in CA for having a pellet gun.
If the situation did play out like this, I feel that this has a lot to do with police training/procedures. Sure police have a challenging and dangerous job, but this scene could have ended peacefully if it was handled differently.
DoktorEvil
Banned
It fires BBs and the whole reason these weapons are designed like military weapons are because Airsoft and Paintball players LOVE wearing tactical gear and looking like they're playing war. They'll put shit and accessorize the fucking guns with scopes and laser sights and all kinds of stupid shit no civilian should be able to acquire.
Gun nuts are twice as bad.
The airsoft and bb gun industry is fucking nuts and it seems like there's very little regulation and what's worst is the players lose their shit because they want as close to the real thing(including having metal weapons with blowback) just to look cool.
Then people started to paint their real gun tips in orange to confuse cops. And then things get weird
I don't know what to believe in anymore. I can't fathom seeing shit like this =/
BronsonLee
Member
Pretty much. The quotes we got from them pretty much solidfy that they're not going to accept any level of blame here/are putting it all on him.
I suppose according to them, the person who died due to a heart attack while fleeing the actual shooting is his fault too
Sho_Nuff82
Member
That's okay, I will.
The only people who thought he was threatening were the same people who followed him around the store and called the cops on him. Let's see the tapes.
I'm glad you find the plight of the African American male amusing. My brain tells me that this guy bought a toy gun and now he's dead because of a trigger happy police officer and someone who didn't bother to think about context (as in, where he might have picked up said gun and why he would play with it) before calling in the trigger happy police.
You won't see me anywhere near a Walmart in any open carry state, and you won't see me in possession of a gun either. That's the legacy of decades of domestic terrorism against people who look like me.
I'm glad you have anecdotes about racism in police work. I've got decades of data that's been beaten over my head in the last few years. I've made my judgment about American police based entirely on the evidence given, not on my own interactions, which have generally been uneventful minus one or two relatively harmless cases of profiling.
User 73706
Banned
Then people started to paint their real gun tips in orange to confuse cops. And then things get weird
Fucking christ.
Ahh okay, thanks. I always figured they were paintball guns because I know people actually shoot each other with them -- I guess maybe they don't necessarily hurt any more than paintballs since I've heard those are a real bitch to get hit with too. Do Airsoft guns fire faster than regular ol Red Ryder BB guns like I had back in the day? Is that why they became such a "thing" in recent years? I hadn't heard of them until about 10 years ago.
I understand why they don't have the orange tips (dudes playing dress up) but in this day and age where you can and will get gunned down for carrying one, then they need to make sweeping changes. I'm quite anti-gun in general so I'd love sweeping changes to the entire gun industry, but at a minimum, these Airsoft guns have to fall in line with toy guns too.
crazygambit
Member
The idea of banning the (mostly) harmless replica toy guns, in order to protect the right for a person to go and buy an assault rifle capable of killing large numbers of people is unfathomable to me. It's the most backwards thing I've ever heard.
I counter with this anecdote from Jeff Gerstmann, talking about his experience with Airsoft in Japan. Since there are no legal firearms in Japan, and therefore very little gun crime, any time someone is seen with a realistic Airsoft rifle, it doesn't immediately spring to mind that it is the real deal, and get you shot dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqbo-s-yytw
I counter with this anecdote from Jeff Gerstmann, talking about his experience with Airsoft in Japan. Since there are no legal firearms in Japan, and therefore very little gun crime, any time someone is seen with a realistic Airsoft rifle, it doesn't immediately spring to mind that it is the real deal, and get you shot dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqbo-s-yytw
Sad and messed up. Maybe he was waving it around stupidly, but it didn't have to end this way
Yeah, at the least sell it packed up tight. Would be a smarter way to sell airsoft/BB items.
Yeah, at the least sell it packed up tight. Would be a smarter way to sell airsoft/BB items.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
I know, the top pic has a little guy with a big gun and a big guy with a little gun!
ShadowSoldier89
Member
DoktorEvil
Banned
Airsoft guns are so well crafted than they blur the line between real gun and fake. There are videos of airsoft guns being modded to accept bullets(I dont know if they fire at the same rate). That scares the SHIT out of me, because they're cheaper to acquire than military weaponry and someone can form a militia are do some damage like that =/
The thing is, the hobbyists that buy those "toys" and the absolutely fringe gun nuts tend to overlap. So unless someone wants to take a risk and ban all military style weaponry and gear from the airsoft and paintball fields, nothing will change.
Hari Seldon
Member
If you believe someone can mod an airsoft gun to shoot bullets I got a bridge to sell you.
ErnieMcCracken
Member
I saw a kid (late teens early 20's) in a Target with a fake handgun. This was right after the school shootings in Sandy Hook. It definitely made me nervous. But this was a realistic looking small black handgun, not a big rifle. Still though I dont blame people for being paranoid. It's the cops shooting him that is the issue.
DoktorEvil
Banned
I don't know what to believe in anymore.
vas_a_morir
Banned
Show us the tapes.
Although, i guess they never have to. Sometimes evidence like this seems to... oh, get misplaced.
Although, i guess they never have to. Sometimes evidence like this seems to... oh, get misplaced.
soundahfekz
Member
Don't breathe in a dehumanizing way
Don't make any sudden moves. Suppress all elation until you're in the confines of your own home and sometimes not even there.
God damnit just don't be black anywhere.
And get one of those hoodie's with a white guys face on it that you can deceive cops with
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
America needs a police reform.
American officers are clearly not well trained and there for a danger to society.
Inapt officers combined with a country full of guns... no good mix.
Almost daily kilings of innocents by the police can't be declared as isolated incidents.
But whats really shocking is the "they acted appropriately" phrase.
What in the actual fuck are these guys on?
Shooting an unarmed, innocent citizen in a supermarket is NEVER appropriate, if something like that happens someone definitely made a huge mistake.
American officers are clearly not well trained and there for a danger to society.
Inapt officers combined with a country full of guns... no good mix.
Almost daily kilings of innocents by the police can't be declared as isolated incidents.
But whats really shocking is the "they acted appropriately" phrase.
What in the actual fuck are these guys on?
Shooting an unarmed, innocent citizen in a supermarket is NEVER appropriate, if something like that happens someone definitely made a huge mistake.
eot
Banned
They're not modded to accept bullets, people just put gun parts inside of them. The airsoft weapon is nothing but a shell and has little to do with the actual firearm. It's like saying you can mod a teapot to accept bullets.
EASTC0AST_GH05T
Member
This, if you read the story you will see that there was people nonchalantly hanging around the guy and the ritchies said they had to shoe people away. That tells you right there that nobody else felt threatened by this guy.
soundahfekz
Member
Unchecked power is the issue.
Cameras on cops at all times always running + independent organization that investigates civilian complaints/charges that cops could face would could down the majority of this shit.
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