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[Riky]

Didn't Sony used to to this all the time with the likes of GTA III ? I'm sure if they could afford it they would still be doing it today.

 

[Salex_]

Who came up with the concept of Bloodborne? Did From come up with the concept, Sony saw it and said "thanks, we'll pay and help dev" or did Sony do all of the concept and outsource part of the development to From? Everything I've seen seems to indicate it's a From game with finance and some assistance from Japan Studio. So it's Sony's IP from a legal perspective, but it seems it's From doing all the creative work.

And I don't understand the sense of entitlement that Tomb Raider cannot be a (timed) exclusive for one console.

Miyazaki:

This project actually started out with the proposal to make something new on new hardware.
SCE came to us. I think it was around the time that development for Artorias of the Abyss Edition of Dark Souls settled down, and it was still before the initial PS4 announcement, but the idea of working on new hardware was very appealing to us, so we eagerly agreed.
Those of us actually working on the game never even considered making it Demon’s Souls 2. Even looking at it objectively, it does seem like a very SCE-like decision.

http://www.worldsfactory.net/2014/06/18/miyazaki-sony-wanted-something-new

You are forgetting Crackdown 3 and Scalebound

Those are 2016 titles at the earliest.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Who came up with the concept of Bloodborne? Did From come up with the concept, Sony saw it and said "thanks, we'll pay and help dev" or did Sony do all of the concept and outsource part of the development to From? Everything I've seen seems to indicate it's a From game with finance and some assistance from Japan Studio. So it's Sony's IP from a legal perspective, but it seems it's From doing all the creative work.

And I don't understand the sense of entitlement that Tomb Raider cannot be a (timed) exclusive for one console.

Just like Demon's Souls, From had an idea, Sony funded and assisted with development, Sony takes the risk as the publisher.

Funding development of a game is a little different from paying a publisher to not release a game on another platform for whatever length of time.

Of course SE can sell timed exclusivity to anyone, the question is whether this makes any sense at all, and how MS, and in particular saviour Phil handled it, hasn't been very straight-forward and transparent.

 

[2spooky4me]

Doesn't matter if Sony asked From or From went with a concept and Sony okayed it, the bottom line is that there's a collaboration between the 2 where Sony owns the IP, if From didn't like the deal they would have done an Insomiac and went to Bandai, EA, or even MS if that was the case.



It wasn't made clear at first, and took an almost arm twist on Spencer to come out that there's a duration, and Crystal Dynamics themselves only admitted that fact by referencing the Phil Spencer interview, this lack of transparency alone annoyed people.

Then we look at Tomb Raider regaining it's PS1-like sales after over a decade of mediocracy and suddenly it's timed exclusive to the one platform it sold the worst, making the need for transparency to be that much more important in which they done fuck up.

Yep, Steroyd is right. Here's the 4Gamer interview with Miyazaki regarding the Bloodborne collaboration:

4Gamer:
Thanks for your time today. I’d like to start by asking how Bloodborne became a completely new title instead of being simply Demon’s Souls 2? Since it’s another collaboration between SCE and From Software, and you are the director again, it just seems natural that the project would be a sequel to Demon’s Souls.

Miyazaki:
This project actually started out with the proposal to make something new on new hardware.

4Gamer:
It was SCE that came to you with that proposal?

Miyazaki:
Yes. I think it was around the time that development for Artorias of the Abyss Edition of Dark Souls settled down, and it was still before the initial PS4 announcement, but the idea of working on new hardware was very appealing to us, so we eagerly agreed.

4Gamer:
So the whole thing never even started as Demon’s Souls 2. That definitely sounds like SCE, even if it’s a little crazy.

Miyazaki:
Yes. Those of us actually working on the game never even considered making it Demon’s Souls 2. Even looking at it objectively, it does seem like a very SCE-like decision.

 

[omonimo]

Didn't Sony used to to this all the time with the likes of GTA III ? I'm sure if they could afford it they would still be doing it today.

Did have they payed for it? Any source?

 

[Kayant]

Who came up with the concept of Bloodborne? Did From come up with the concept, Sony saw it and said "thanks, we'll pay and help dev" or did Sony do all of the concept and outsource part of the development to From? Everything I've seen seems to indicate it's a From game with finance and some assistance from Japan Studio. So it's Sony's IP from a legal perspective, but it seems it's From doing all the creative work.

And I don't understand the sense of entitlement that Tomb Raider cannot be a (timed) exclusive for one console.

It Was Never Demon’s Souls 2

4Gamer:
Thanks for your time today. I’d like to start by asking how Bloodborne became a completely new title instead of being simply Demon’s Souls 2? Since it’s another collaboration between SCE and From Software, and you are the director again, it just seems natural that the project would be a sequel to Demon’s Souls.

Miyazaki:
This project actually started out with the proposal to make something new on new hardware.

4Gamer:
It was SCE that came to you with that proposal?

Miyazaki:
Yes. I think it was around the time that development for Artorias of the Abyss Edition of Dark Souls settled down, and it was still before the initial PS4 announcement, but the idea of working on new hardware was very appealing to us, so we eagerly agreed.

4Gamer:
So the whole thing never even started as Demon’s Souls 2. That definitely sounds like SCE, even if it’s a little crazy.

Miyazaki:
Yes. Those of us actually working on the game never even considered making it Demon’s Souls 2. Even looking at it objectively, it does seem like a very SCE-like decision.

4Gamer:
How about yourself? Were you interested only in creating something new?

Well of course From is doing the creature work it's not different than Scalebound, Crackdown, Wild and all the other contracted games being made at the moment. The point is Sony went to From because they wanted something new, they are supporting From with development and are funding the whole project as well as the IP being Sony's.

never said they were,i meant we just don't know why this deal went down the way it did. Perhaps when they started making it, it had a lower budget due to not meeting expectations at start? Do they think releasing on ps4 after uncharted comes out will give them more profit? Nobody knows, only them but the fact that this is now a Xbox 2015 exclusive means they decided it was the best course of action as they could have easily turned MS down should they not have needed money/help as they would be losing out on sales from other platforms.

Either way I'm hoping MS does in fact help with development to make this next game in the series better than the previous one.

All MS with be doing is helping development with their platforms.

Edit -

Which they also do then Microsoft has no co-marketing relationship for a title with the publisher. See Destiny.

But of course this means they can say they help with development, just like giving money to the publisher helps with development, even if it's just indirectly. Ambiguity and uncertainty has been the MO since the announcement.

All we can reasonably infer is that there was no instrumental involvement by Microsoft because otherwise it would have been clear at the announcement of the title that it was going to be on Xbox only. Square-Enix didn't just forget at E3 that Microsoft has been the major key player.

Well said it this was announced as sure no one will have much of an issue with it.

 

[Cave Johnson]

So why couldn't they bump up in manpower? Beyond that we have outsourcing that is expensive too. Stuff like QA.

Doesn't change a thing. QA and outsourcing existed even back then. Having broke-even on a bigger/longer development time would mean having the exact same resources to work on the sequel - with almost half amount the time and half the amount of platforms to work with.

So again, why is the money a concern here?

 

[Kinyou]

Just like Demon's Souls, From had an idea, Sony funded and assisted with development, Sony takes the risk as the publisher.

Funding development of a game is a little different from paying a publisher to not release a game on another platform for whatever length of time.

Of course SE can sell timed exclusivity to anyone, the question is whether this makes any sense at all, and how MS, and in particular saviour Phil handled it, hasn't been very straight-forward and transparent.

But isn't this thread about that they're doing a bit more then just paying the publisher to keep it from other platforms? If MS really helps with the development then the Tomb Raider we'll see in 2015 will probably be different from a not exclusive tomb raider.

 

[CambriaRising]

Did have they payed for it? Any source?

http://www.vg247.com/2010/11/25/reeves-gta-iii-ps2-exclusivity-deal-was-remarkably-cheap/

Yeah, they paid for it. 6 month deal.

 

[icespide]

http://www.vg247.com/2010/11/25/reeves-gta-iii-ps2-exclusivity-deal-was-remarkably-cheap/

Yeah, they paid for it. 6 month deal.

wow they got lucky there

 

[benny_a]

All MS with be doing is helping development with their platforms.

Which they also do then Microsoft has no co-marketing relationship for a title with the publisher. See Destiny.

But of course this means they can say they help with development, just like giving money to the publisher helps with development, even if it's just indirectly. Ambiguity and uncertainty has been the MO since the announcement.

All we can reasonably infer is that there was no instrumental involvement by Microsoft because otherwise it would have been clear at the announcement of the title that it was going to be on Xbox only. Square-Enix didn't just forget at E3 that Microsoft has been the major key player.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

But isn't this thread about that they're doing a bit more then just paying the publisher to keep it from other platforms? If MS really helps with the development then the Tomb Raider we'll see in 2015 will probably be different from a not exclusive tomb raider.

But MS wouldn't invest in a better game for other platforms, so either the improvements will be xbox focused or any added content would be exclusive, I'd assume.

 

[Zombine]

I think the annoying part is that they suckered ps4 exclusive people into buying the better looking and performing version of the game, only to cut them out of the equation. I am buying this game on Xbox One when I am certain it would look better and be more enjoyable on my PS4. Microsoft's new strategy is worse, because they know that because they are the weaker console this gen, so now they have to money hat everything.

 

[Uno Venova]

Didn't Sony used to to this all the time with the likes of GTA III ? I'm sure if they could afford it they would still be doing it today.

I don't know, you tell us.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

But isn't this thread about that they're doing a bit more then just paying the publisher to keep it from other platforms? If MS really helps with the development then the Tomb Raider we'll see in 2015 will probably be different from a not exclusive tomb raider.

Do you actually believe SE, a large publisher with their own tools and funding, a publisher that is used to funding and developing large-scale multi-year projects, needs help with either funding development or actual development outside of the usual technical help that all the platform holders provide to all the big games to make sure those games don't run like shit? Or do you just believe when saviour Phil said "development" that automatically MS is sending a whole group of programmers and game designers over to CD to help with basic gameplay design and engine development?

 

[tmtyf]

Did have they payed for it? Any source?

http://www.ign.com/articles/2002/05/21/rockstar-to-xbox-no-gta-for-you

they had a few year agreement to which MS payed something like 70million to make gta iv not a ps3 exclusive if i remember correctly

 

[Stone Ocean]

Source?

The game was announced to be in development 2 years ago, with a reveal last year. Do you honestly think that if the game had any sort of exclusivity in that period of time we wouldn't have heard about it in the reveal?

They might have been in talks during the E3 reveal - which would explain not announcing platforms back then -, but once this project started? Not a chance.

 

[KaiserBecks]

Do you actually believe SE, a large publisher with their own tools and funding, a publisher that is used to funding and developing large-scale multi-year projects, needs help with either funding development or actual development outside of the usual technical help that all the platform holders provide to all the big games? Or do you just believe when saviour Phil said "development" that automatically MS is sending a whole group of programmers and game designers over to CD?

Yeah, SE are doing really well these days.

 

[Steroyd]

But isn't this thread about that they're doing a bit more then just paying the publisher to keep it from other platforms? If MS really helps with the development then the Tomb Raider we'll see in 2015 will probably be different from a not exclusive tomb raider.

An Xbox 360 version existing kills that notion for me.

 

[TheOddOne]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2002/05/21/rockstar-to-xbox-no-gta-for-you

they had a few year agreement to which MS payed something like 70million to make gta iv not a ps3 exclusive if i remember correctly

This announcement means it's curtains for the planned Xbox version of GTA3, which was to be released later this year.

"Given the worldwide acceptance of PlayStation 2, it's natural for Take-Two to partner with Sony Computer Entertainment America and Sony Computer Entertainment Europe in its respective markets," said Kelly Sumner, CEO of Take-Two Interactive (Rockstar's parent company). "We want our best-selling franchise to reach the greatest number of consumers. The penetration of PlayStation 2 globally, combined with the pervasive nature and power of the PlayStation brand, will help us achieve this objective. The fact that the PlayStation 2 will be the only home entertainment system on which one can enjoy Grand Theft Auto titles is a great statement for the platform overall."

Well that didn't turn out to be true.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Yeah, SE are doing really well these days.

Are you arguing that SE wouldn't have been able to get ROTR out on PS4/PC/xbone/PS3/xbox360 on their own?

 

[icespide]

Kagari has already confirmed in several Tomb Raider threads that SE didn't need any help funding Rise of the Tomb Raider

 

[Aβydoς]

Well, I was going to buy and Xbox One anyway (always try to get the big three every gen).

 

[enzo_gt]

The game was announced to be in development 2 years ago, with a reveal last year. Do you honestly think that if the game had any sort of exclusivity in that period of time we wouldn't have heard about it in the reveal?

They might have been in talks during the E3 reveal - which would explain not announcing platforms back then -, but once this project started? Not a chance.

So no source then means it's not 100% confirmed, then. Long dev cycles like that are not unusual either, especially considering how important this game is to SE. Not that I deny they probably fiddled with other platforms (who doesn't?), but something can be said about creating the best product for one platform in the time frame that works best for you, creating the best platform for that product, and then porting it elsewhere. Basically the use of a lead platform with a greater focus on serial optimization. Nothing unusual.

http://www.vg247.com/2010/11/25/reeves-gta-iii-ps2-exclusivity-deal-was-remarkably-cheap/

Yeah, they paid for it. 6 month deal.

Oh man, this is rich.

 

[icespide]

So no source then means it's not 100% confirmed, then. Long dev cycles like that are not unusual either, especially considering how important this game is to SE. Not that I deny they probably fiddled with other platforms, but something can be said about creating the best product for one platform in the time frame that works best for you, creating the best platform for that product, and then porting it elsewhere. Basically the use of a lead platform with a greater focus on serial optimization.

people preordered the PS4 version of the game that were canceled this week. pretty telling to me

 

[kekke]

Kagari has already confirmed in several Tomb Raider threads that SE didn't need any help funding Rise of the Tomb Raider

But they still got funding, and let's be honest, marketing is damn expensive thing and thats something MS is willing to help with.

 

[CambriaRising]

Oh man, this is rich.

Yeah, a deal from 14 years ago is the smoking gun everyone was looking for and I found it in less than 30 seconds.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Why do people on a computer think they know better about the financial ramifications of this deal than Square.

Seriously just stop, it's embarrassing.

 

[Daemul]

"The fact that the PlayStation 2 will be the only home entertainment system on which one can enjoy Grand Theft Auto titles is a great statement for the platform overall."

Thanks for reminding me about this, it brings back memories.

 

[icespide]

But they still got funding, and let's be honest, marketing is damn expensive thing and thats something MS is willing to help with.

oh for sure, my point was mainly aimed towards arguments that maybe the game wouldn't have happened without help

 

[enzo_gt]

people preordered the PS4 version of the game that were canceled this week. pretty telling to me

I can still pre-order "Tekken 3DS" from Best Buy, and it's not the same as 3D: Prime Edition. If anything, being on GAF we should all know better than to take whatever retailers throw up as the word of god.

Why do people on a computer think they know better about the financial ramifications of this deal than Square.

Seriously just stop, it's embarrassing.

It's human nature for some to count someone else's money. I mean, that's why NPDs, etc. are so popular, for the speculative capacity they offer. To some, the PS4 market is completely lost, which is sort of absurd considering the transitions IPs made last gen.

 

[kekke]

oh for sure, my point was mainly aimed towards arguments that maybe the game wouldn't have happened without help

Oh, my bad. Those arguments are ridiculous for sure.

 

[CambriaRising]

I can still pre-order "Tekken 3DS" from Best Buy, and it's not the same as 3D: Prime Edition. If anything, being on GAF we should all know better than to take whatever retailers throw up as the word of god.

Amazon is usually pretty on point about these things.

 

[icespide]

I can still pre-order "Tekken 3DS" from Best Buy, and it's not the same as 3D: Prime Edition. If anything, being on GAF we should all know better than to take whatever retailers throw up as the word of god.

not saying it's the word of god. just saying there was ambiguity

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

http://www.vg247.com/2010/11/25/reeves-gta-iii-ps2-exclusivity-deal-was-remarkably-cheap/

Yeah, they paid for it. 6 month deal.

“We picked up something called State of Emergency, which I don’t think would have been on Xbox anyway. Then I said, ‘What else have you got?’

That made me laugh.

 

[Pain]

Who cares. Tomb Raider isn't really that good to get excited/upset about.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

But they still got funding, and let's be honest, marketing is damn expensive thing and thats something MS is willing to help with.

Marketing is not development.

 

[icespide]

Who cares. Tomb Raider isn't really that good to get excited/upset about.

what a great contribution to the thread. thanks

 

[lpchrys]

Why doesn't anyone understand...people are asking him questions he cannot answer at this point in time. The man wants to sell Xboxs, that's his job. He's not going to say it's coming to ps4 6 months down the line. If you want to play it, buy an Xbox. Stop wining.

 

[Daemul]

“We picked up something called State of Emergency, which I don’t think would have been on Xbox anyway. Then I said, ‘What else have you got?’

That made me laugh.

Dancer is Take Two
Grandpa is Sony

 

[shinnn]

Next year's retail exclusive line up

Xbox One
Quantum Break
Fable Legends
Rise of the Tomb Raider (also on 360)
Halo 5

PS4
The Order 1886
Ratchet Redux
BloodBorne
Uncharted 4

fall 2015 MS have a advantage where they have Halo 5 and Tomb Raider. Its 0vvious they bouggt exclusivity for Tomb Raider to compete with Uncharted.

Way better than annoucing Driveclub as launch title knowing the game will not ship to compete with Forza 5.

 

[icespide]

Way better than annoucing Driveclub as launch title knowing the game will not ship to compete with Forza 5.

are you saying Sony knew Driveclub wasn't going to make launch when they announced it? source?

 

[Pain]

Didn't Sony used to to this all the time with the likes of GTA III ? I'm sure if they could afford it they would still be doing it today.

PS2 was dominating. It made sense.
Xbox isn't dominating. Tomb Raider isn't high profile. I think this exclusivity will do more harm than good.

 

[Kinyou]

Do you actually believe SE, a large publisher with their own tools and funding, a publisher that is used to funding and developing large-scale multi-year projects, needs help with either funding development or actual development outside of the usual technical help that all the platform holders provide to all the big games to make sure those games don't run like shit? Or do you just believe when saviour Phil said "development" that automatically MS is sending a whole group of programmers and game designers over to CD to help with basic gameplay design and engine development?

The point just is that more money means more options for the developers. Bigger set pieces, more cutscenes, simply stuff that might have been cut otherwise.

 

[travisbickle]

“We picked up something called State of Emergency, which I don’t think would have been on Xbox anyway. Then I said, ‘What else have you got?’

That made me laugh.

Different world back then.

Now "What else have you got?"

"DLC map pack? 6 month exclusivity for this up-port of an iOS game? Co-marketing deal?"

 

[shacklesmcgee]

Its 0vvious they bouggt exclusivity for Tomb Raider to compete with Uncharted.

Way better than annoucing Driveclub as launch title knowing the game will not ship to compete with Forza 5.

How did you even get from that from that?

 

[KaiserBecks]

Are you arguing that SE wouldn't have been able to get ROTR out on PS4/PC/xbone/PS3/xbox360 on their own?

I'm arguing that after the "success" of Tomb Raider, they won't mind going the safe route. How about that Sleeping Dogs sequel? I guess that's coming along nicely as well?

 

[ProfessorMoran]

I can still pre-order "Tekken 3DS" from Best Buy, and it's not the same as 3D: Prime Edition. If anything, being on GAF we should all know better than to take whatever retailers throw up as the word of god.


It's human nature for some to count someone else's money. I mean, that's why NPDs, etc. are so popular, for the speculative capacity they offer. To some, the PS4 market is completely lost, which is sort of absurd considering the transitions IPs made last gen.

And your common sense tells you that the PS4/PC versions don't exist or are equivalent to a 3DS version?

What do you mean when you say the PS4 market is completely lost?

 

[ps3ud0]

Do you actually believe SE, a large publisher with their own tools and funding, a publisher that is used to funding and developing large-scale multi-year projects, needs help with either funding development or actual development outside of the usual technical help that all the platform holders provide to all the big games to make sure those games don't run like shit? Or do you just believe when saviour Phil said "development" that automatically MS is sending a whole group of programmers and game designers over to CD to help with basic gameplay design and engine development?

Replace SE with EA and CD with Respawn and we probably arent far from the help MS gave Titanfall to make it exclusive

people preordered the PS4 version of the game that were canceled this week. pretty telling to me

Agreed whatever spin MS is trying to fabricate with 'development' just doesnt seem to fit what we already know about TRs development. Its been in dev for ages already so why did SE allow PS4 preorders if MS were there already 'helping'...

I dont see why they are digging a bigger hole for themselves, tbh Phil Spencer confirming it was 'timed' was probably too much information they should have just said nothing rather than now trying to make generalised statements that attempt to fit the facts.

The issue MS/SE have now is whenever TR is shown off publicly theyll have this same questions asked again and again - it just wont be forgotten magically until TR releases. This get in the end just might end up being more negative than positive and considering what they actually got thats a massive fumble...

ps3ud0 8)

 

[icespide]

I'm arguing that after the "success" of Tomb Raider, they won't mind going the safe route. How about that Sleeping Dogs sequel? I guess that's coming along nicely as well?

huh? for all we know a Sleeping Dogs sequel is currently in development and going well, or its not. What does it matter?