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[Trey]

Oh Jesus Christ. Lighten up. I wasn't comparing the two situations. I was unaware that black is *apparently* shorthand for all minorities and I was noting that normally the fandom is more in tune with things.

Person of color is the "proper" term. But the people who are calling her black mean to say she is a minority with a brown skin color, not necessarily the specific ethnicity black refers to.

I would say most of the fandom, by my estimation, is in tune with this difference.

 

[Chariot]

One of my favorite female characters in media will always be Saber, as she was portrayed in Fate Zero. Then again every character was great in that, but since she's one of the two leads and arguably the staple of the series, you get what I'm saying.

Strong female characters...
I throw Balsa of Guardian of the Spirit and Revy of Black Lagoon into the pit. People often want to deny Revy for that matter, but I won't dismiss her. On one hand she is physically strong, but that isn't what matters the most, yes. She is a woman, she loves a man, but she isn't depend on him or defined by her love to him. He is just an important part of her life and I love how subtle the show makes the relationship.

 

[Satch]

i think there was some implication that Iroh treated her differently in part because she was a girl and Azula resented him for it

i dont remember what episode it was, but there was a flashback scene one time that showed Iroh coming back from war or something, and he brought each of them gifts:

Zuko got a cool dagger
Azula got a doll

i dislike Iroh more than most people, and this is partially why. zuko and azula were both being abused, just in different ways. its just that Iroh needed someone to fill the void that was left behind when he lost his son - there was no way azula could ever measure up to zuko in that department no matter what she did.

 

[ObbyDent]

Person of color is the "proper" term. But the people who are calling her black mean to say she is a minority with a brown skin color, not necessarily the specific ethnicity black refers to.

I would say most of the fandom, by my estimation, is in tune with this difference.

Then I guess I'm the tool that doesn't understand it. This is why I normally avoid race discussions about this show.

 

[Chariot]

i think there was some implication that Iroh treated her differently in part because she was a girl and Azula resented him for it

i dont remember what episode it was, but there was a flashback scene one time that showed Iroh coming back from war or something, and he brought each of them gifts:

Zuko got a cool dagger
Azula got a doll

i dislike Iroh more than most people, and this is partially why. zuko and azula were both being abused, just in different ways. its just that Iroh needed someone to fill the void that was left behind when he lost his son - there was no way azula could ever measure up to zuko in that department no matter what she did.

This is what I was talking about last page. It was when he sieged Ba Sing Sei and send his family a letter and gifts.

 

[Trey]

i dont remember what episode it was, but there was a flashback scene one time that showed Iroh coming back from war or something, and he brought each of them gifts:

Sounds like "the Avatar and the Firelord".

speak your piece on Iroh.

Then I guess I'm the tool that doesn't understand it. This is why I normally avoid race discussions about this show.

Not a tool. Just missing context. Reason why I was going to let it go originally was because I understand your point of view.

 

[Joeytj]

Person of color is the "proper" term. But the people who are calling her black mean to say she is a minority with a brown skin color, not necessarily the specific ethnicity black refers to.

I would say most of the fandom, by my estimation, is in tune with this difference.

But then, why call her black?

I... ok, no, not getting into this discussion. I don't agree with that characterization, but I know enough about American culture to know that this discussion won't get us anywhere.

 

[ObbyDent]

But then, why call her black?

I... ok, no, not getting into this discussion. I don't agree with that characterization, but I know enough about American culture to know that this discussion won't get us anywhere.

Yeah. I'm bowing out. I will say it doesn't make sense to me, but whatevs.

Sounds like "the Avatar and the Firelord".

Nah, That's Zuko Alone.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Person of color is the "proper" term. But the people who are calling her black mean to say she is a minority with a brown skin color, not necessarily the specific ethnicity black refers to.

I would say most of the fandom, by my estimation, is in tune with this difference.

Maybe the group that hangs out on tumblr, but not the rest of us.

 

[Icyflamez96]

She black. Actually, she so black, she purple.

 

[Joeytj]

i think there was some implication that Iroh treated her differently in part because she was a girl and Azula resented him for it

i dont remember what episode it was, but there was a flashback scene one time that showed Iroh coming back from war or something, and he brought each of them gifts:

Zuko got a cool dagger
Azula got a doll

i dislike Iroh more than most people, and this is partially why. zuko and azula were both being abused, just in different ways. its just that Iroh needed someone to fill the void that was left behind when he lost his son - there was no way azula could ever measure up to zuko in that department no matter what she did.

Hu, you're right. I never understood what made Azula so mean... did Ursa and Iroh discriminate her from the start just because she was a girl or did she show signs of being an evil person (I know she's more complicated than that, but you know what I mean) since being a baby?

That's one of my gripes about Azula in ATLA. Did she alienate her mother and Iroh from the beginning or did her mother and Iroh alienate her from the beginning and that's what made her go to her dad for attention and love? Did Ozai immediately took it upon himself to mold Azula once he saw her talent and discard Zuko? We know he discriminated against Zuko because of his perceived physical weakness (They thought he wasn't a fire bender at first) and that's part of what made Zuko more attached to his mom (his father neglected him).

Was it all just Ozai's fault?

Wait... Was it IROH's fault then?! :O

 

[OmegaX]

i dislike Iroh more than most people, and this is partially why. zuko and azula were both being abused, just in different ways. its just that Iroh needed someone to fill the void that was left behind when he lost his son - there was no way azula could ever measure up to zuko in that department no matter what she did.

I don't think Azula was even interested in Iroh's affection anyway. She was Ozai's favorite, a firebending prodigy, and a bully to her "friends" and brother. I don't see how Azula was being abused at all.

 

[Toa TAK]

Azula was a better villain than Ozai.

 

[solomon]

Just finished book three and overall what impressed me the most was the animation but after that overall is was meh to good.

 

[Gotchaye]

We see Azula being pretty uniformly terrible throughout her life to basically everyone, but at the same time we also get a lot of indications that she was hurt/angered at the lack of affection shown her by Ozai, Ursula, and maybe Iroh. This is made most explicit in The Beach and then in the finale, but she's clearly thrown by the gift of a doll - if nothing else it's an incredibly thoughtless present given how she actually spends her time. The finale suggests that a lot of her particularly terrible behavior was about being the sort of person she thought Ozai wanted her to be, and Ursula seems to have given up on her pretty early on.

 

[Chariot]

Hu, you're right. I never understood what made Azula so mean... did Ursa and Iroh discriminate her from the start just because she was a girl or did she show signs of being an evil person (I know she's more complicated than that, but you know what I mean) since being a baby?

That's one of my gripes about Azula in ATLA. Did she alienate her mother and Iroh from the beginning or did her mother and Iroh alienate her from the beginning and that's what made her go to her dad for attention and love? Did Ozai immediately took it upon himself to mold Azula once he saw her talent and discard Zuko? We know he discriminated against Zuko because of his perceived physical weakness (They thought he wasn't a fire bender at first) and that's part of what made Zuko more attached to his mom (his father neglected him).

Was it all just Ozai's fault?

Wait... Was it IROH's fault then?! :O

Good question.
I think she was always a bit mean, but in the sense that children can be mean. Since she was a princess only a few people would dare to stop her - like her mother and Iroh. Which is probably why she thought they preferred Zuko over her.
The mistake was probably that they only defended Zuko and scolded Azula, without actually teaching her. Well, granted, Iroh was pretty occupied at the time. It's just an unfortunate mess.

I don't think Azula was even interested in Iroh's affection anyway. She was Ozai's favorite, a firebending prodigy, and a bully to her "friends" and brother. I don't see how Azula was being abused at all.

She was clearly angry about her uncle sending her the doll and in general she also made comments about Zuko being favored by Iroh.

 

[OmegaX]

She was clearly angry about her uncle sending her the doll and in general she also made comments about Zuko being favored by Iroh.

Didn't she also made that comment about Iroh being weak/a failure for retreating from the attack on Ba Sing Se because his son died? She was always cruel to anybody for no good reason. I think Azula was always a sociopath and nothing that her mother or Iroh had done could have changed her.

 

[Chariot]

Didn't she also made that comment about Iroh being weak/a failure for retreating from the attack on Ba Sing Se because his son died? She was always cruel to anybody for no good reason. I think Azula was always a sociopath and nothing that her mother or Iroh had done could have changed her.

That was later, I think at that point she just resented him. And I won't say that she was "always a sociopath". Proper education could've led her another way.

 

[Mononoke]

This is what I was talking about last page. It was when he sieged Ba Sing Sei and send his family a letter and gifts.

Isn't it possible for Iroh to have changed in his older age though? I agree he wasn't always clean. But I don't see why Iroh couldn't have become a good person later in life (even if it took the death of his son for him to realize he what he was doing was wrong).

We see Azula being pretty uniformly terrible throughout her life to basically everyone, but at the same time we also get a lot of indications that she was hurt/angered at the lack of affection shown her by Ozai, Ursula, and maybe Iroh. This is made most explicit in The Beach and then in the finale, but she's clearly thrown by the gift of a doll - if nothing else it's an incredibly thoughtless present given how she actually spends her time. The finale suggests that a lot of her particularly terrible behavior was about being the sort of person she thought Ozai wanted her to be, and Ursula seems to have given up on her pretty early on.

I love Azula (obviously), but I always kind of felt like they made her characteristically the "evil child", which didn't really sit well with me in the flashbacks. Obviously there can be implied abuse, and deeper issues that caused her to be that way. But in the actual episode itself, they really made cartoonishly evil even as a child.

You get a bit more insight into this with the comics and I agree there are other things implied (with regards to the family dynamics and the impact it had on her). But I dunno, they could have done a bit more to explore why Azula was the way she was. So I can see why some would just assume she was always a "rotten apple"...because the show really pushed that heavily.

 

[Chariot]

Isn't it possible for Iroh to have changed in his older age though? I agree he wasn't always clean. But I don't see why Iroh couldn't have become a good person later in life (even if it took the death of his son for him to realize he what he was doing was wrong).

He did. As far as I gathered he was always as cheerful as he was in the show, but only for his own people - until his son died and he broke down. I think he was always a nice man, just in the context of being conservative. In that sense Oozai was better than him, since he didn't mind the gender of Azula and only saw her talent.

 

[360pages]

The discussion reminds me of Dio from Jojo, and how one character calls him evil from birth...despite the fact that we actually are shown him being treated and abused by his father.

Apparently the creator actually regretted that line, considering later on, another version of Dio that was raised decently actually ended up as a pretty good person.

 

[OmegaX]

That was later, I think at that point she just resented him. And I won't say that she was "always a sociopath". Proper education could've led her another way.

I don't know. Even when she hallucinated her mother on the mirror, instead of telling her that she was a monster, Azula's mother told her that she always loved her. To me, it seems that even Azula knew she was evil herself, and not even her own mind let her shift the blame to her mother.

 

[Guest12345678]

I always thought of Azula as a bratty child, who was transformed into a monster by the environment she grew up in. After Zuko was exiled and her mother disappeared, she was left with her father, which can't be healthy.

 

[Mononoke]

He did. As far as I gathered he was always as cheerful as he was in the show, but only for his own people - until his son died and he broke down. I think he was always a nice man, just in the context of being conservative. In that sense Oozai was better than him, since he didn't mind the gender of Azula and only saw her talent.

Ah, the context was how he treated Azula. Fair enough. It sucks that he saw Azula's gender. Azula is certainly a tragic character, just because a lot of who she became was through an unfortunate upbringing. As silly as that beach episode was, I actually thought it was a pretty good one for those characters emotionally. Like when Azula gets out her emotions by the beach fire, but then tries to reel it back defensively.

I always thought of Azula as a bratty child, who was transformed into a monster by the environment she grew up in. After Zuko was exiled and her mother disappeared, she was left with her father, which can't be healthy.

A lot of people see her that way, because on the surface that is how the show portrayed it. I would say, I do think they had subtle and implied moments that suggested she wasn't just a rotten child (always destined to be evil). But they weren't really in the forefront. The comics kind of elaborate a bit more on how fucked up the family dynamics were, and how her "role" in the family had a negative impact on her as a child. But most people aren't going to read the comics so lol

 

[Bold One]

Azula was a better villain than Ozai.

Azula had way more screen time

 

[Mononoke]

Azula had way more screen time

Yeah, the writers intentionally wanted to keep Ozai in the dark (because they thought it brought more tension to the looming threat Aang faced). But I think there were some downsides to that decision.

 

[Satch]

I don't think Azula was even interested in Iroh's affection anyway. She was Ozai's favorite, a firebending prodigy, and a bully to her "friends" and brother. I don't see how Azula was being abused at all.

I vividly recall her seeing that as an affront and she was annoyed by it because she didn't like dolls. She set it on fire, if I'm remembering correctly.

And yes, Azula was being abused. She was Ozai's favorite because she was a firebending prodigy, and he reduced her to that alone. He completely dehumanized her; he may not have been burning the skin off her face, but he was very good at psychological manipulation. Trust me, if Zuko had been a natural at firebending, Ozai would have tried harder to keep him. But Zuko is weak and disposable, and there were probably hundreds of firebenders walking the Fire Nation's street that could do what he does, and miles better.

Ozai doted on Azula like a carpenter would dote on a hammer, but at the end of the day, once a hammer has driven all the nails into the wood, it has to go back into the toolbox.

 

[Chariot]

I don't know. Even when she hallucinated her mother on the mirror, instead of telling her that she was a monster, Azula's mother told her that she always loved her. To me, it seems that even Azula knew she was evil herself, and not even her own mind let her shift the blame to her mother.

Azula rejected her mother openly, but still loved her within. But that doesn't change that she wasn't born "evil". She is the product of those around her. The father that wanted her to be a warrior and leader, the mother that always defended that wimpy brother of hers, the uncle who only saw her as girl and the whole environment of war and royalty, that shifted her values from human lives to power. Power to wage war, power to win wars, power to rule.

As someone said, she was a spoiled child, who could away with a lot due her position, but at the same time she didn't get really what she needed the most - affection. Well, besides from Oozai and she was pretty obedient to him.

 

[Penguins&PolarBears]

I can't wait until Korra becomes the spiritual advisor to the next avatar:

New avatar: oh former avatars, what should I do?

Korra: Kill the motherfucker

New avatar: bubububut

Korra: DEAL WITH IT

Just re-watched the final episode of TLA last night and that was basically what all the past Avatars told Aang when he had to fight the Fire Lord and didn't want to kill him. It was only the Lion Turtle that showed Aang a non-violent way. Korra's aggressive personality seems pretty similar to Avatar Kyoshi, who also relied on force to solve problems and ended up with unintended consequences as a result.

I can see why some people who love Aang dislike Korra's personality. Just as Aang seems to dislike Kyoshi, his personality is in many ways polar opposite of Korra. Personally I really appreciate that the Avatars have very different approaches and philosophies that guide them. In some ways I like Korra more than Aang because she is so fearless/confident and takes everything head on. Aang had low self esteem issues and a tendency to just run away from his problems.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

I hope Zaheer and the red lotus come back next season. I have the feeling that the red lotus have infiltrated plenty of important institutions, and have important members. Zaheer is the best villain in Korra, and he should be back.

 

[ObbyDent]

Yeah, I get the impression that Zaheer was in no way their leader, but I suppose a group like that really shouldn't have leaders.

 

[Chariot]

I hope Zaheer and the red lotus come back next season. I have the feeling that the red lotus have infiltrated plenty of important institutions, and have important members. Zaheer is the best villain in Korra, and he should be back.

 

[Pepboy]

Hu, you're right. I never understood what made Azula so mean... did Ursa and Iroh discriminate her from the start just because she was a girl or did she show signs of being an evil person (I know she's more complicated than that, but you know what I mean) since being a baby?

That's one of my gripes about Azula in ATLA. Did she alienate her mother and Iroh from the beginning or did her mother and Iroh alienate her from the beginning and that's what made her go to her dad for attention and love? Did Ozai immediately took it upon himself to mold Azula once he saw her talent and discard Zuko? We know he discriminated against Zuko because of his perceived physical weakness (They thought he wasn't a fire bender at first) and that's part of what made Zuko more attached to his mom (his father neglected him).

Was it all just Ozai's fault?

Wait... Was it IROH's fault then?! :O

Check out the ATLA comics to get some more insight into these questions. I think it's called "The Search" or maybe "The Promise". Anyways I treat them as cannon as I think the creators had some input and it fills in a lot of gaps (like the creation of republic city).

 

[Admiral Woofington]

GOD DAMMIT CHARIOT

 

[Icyflamez96]

Zaheer was definitely more of the leader than anyone else in the group.

 

[And_Gignac]

On what grounds?

She has done way more stuff for the good of the Avatar world, fixing most of Aang's mistakes (like indirectly rebuilding the air nation).

Aang's negligence created the circumstances for both the Hundred Years' War and the revolution of Amon.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Add the policewoman, Kuvera, and Tenzin´s wife.

GOD DAMMIT CHARIOT

Come on, you know it´s true.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

If it's true I'll film myself eating crow and post it online while doing an "I am an idiot I didn't see it" dance.


fucking quote me. Put it on a billboard. Call me to remind me.

 

[Face it Tiger..]

I really really liked S3.

SO MUCH better than season 1 & 2 combined.

 

[Toa TAK]

If it's true I'll film myself eating crow and post it online while doing an "I am an idiot I didn't see it" dance.


fucking quote me. Put it on a billboard. Call me to remind me.

I really don't think Tenzin's wifey will be a villain. I just don't see it happening.

 

[Chariot]

She has done way more stuff for the good of the Avatar world, fixing most of Aang's mistakes (like indirectly rebuilding the air nation).

Aang's negligence created the circumstances for both the Hundred Years' War and the revolution of Amon.

The eradication of the air nation was hardly Aang's fault. And just that opening the portals brought airbending back, didn't make Korra a good avatar. It happened by total chance, nobody could foreseen that. We need an avatar with wits and an good idea of the world, not some avatar who just has huge luck sometimes.

Add the policewoman, Kuvera, and Tenzin´s wife.

All females, heh. Maybe somebody just hates women and keeps adding ominous shots of them.

If it's true I'll film myself eating crow and post it online while doing an "I am an idiot I didn't see it" dance.


fucking quote me. Put it on a billboard. Call me to remind me.

I try to remember that. If she isn't part of an evil organisation, I will film myself slapping myself twice in the face for every episode the next episode has while yelling repeatedly "I am paranoid!".

 

[Verelios]

She has done way more stuff for the good of the Avatar world, fixing most of Aang's mistakes (like indirectly rebuilding the air nation).

Aang's negligence created the circumstances for both the Hundred Years' War and the revolution of Amon.

Pretty sure Aang would have legit died if he went out as he was to stop the war. Full stop, that was on Roku.

 

[Nintendoga]

She got caught by water arm lady too easily when they were escaping the temple.

I ain't trusting her

 

[Plywood]

Re: Korra, she's way too headstrong. It would be one thing if she was and had a plan to back it up, but most of the time she just brings her jack of all trades master of none bending flopistry. Season 2 mostly grinded my gears on this because it was as if she learned nothing from season 1, obviously the writers are to blame on this, but ughh. It was actually a nice change of pace to see Korra decide to turn herself in, that was until Suyin came up with a plan. I am glad that S3's ending at least implies there will be some kind of change going forward.

On another other note I was happy when they showed Jinora at the end looking all bald and Aang like. From the moment she said she wanted to be a master I was waiting for them to shave her head. It was good to see her get her due.

edit: One more thing, about P'Li it took me back how she was taller than Zaheer and what a way to go out. RIP

that whole zaheer/bolin scene was fuckin turrible

it was a near-character assassination for zaheer making him sound like a scooby doo villain just got thwarted by the mystery gang.

and bolin finally reached his limit for wisecracks for me (and i really liked him too)

zaheer up until that scene was a g tho. and i really liked tenzin in these final episodes.

I felt the same way. It ruined gravitas of all their struggle and Korra's survival.

Zaheer, for a dude that's zen enough to unlock the secret of flight, seemed awfully obsessed with Korra, and was hell-bent on plunging the world into chaos. A bit of a contradiction.

Glad I'm not alone.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

It's like people are forgetting what Sokka did with Fire Lord Ozai.

I try to remember that. If she isn't part of an evil organisation, I will film myself slapping myself twice in the face for every episode the next episode has while yelling repeatedly "I am paranoid!".

It doesn't mean as much coming from you, you've already shown me your nipples and sharpie your body with names. You probably want to film yourself.

 

[Raxus]

It's like people are forgetting what Sokka did with Fire Lord Ozai.

Or how cartoonish of a villain Ozai was.

Were you ready to kill a dictator at the age of 12?

People give a lot of shit to Korra when she improved MASSIVELY as an Avatar (and character) from the previous seasons without the help of her past selves.

 

[Joeytj]

Check out the ATLA comics to get some more insight into these questions. I think it's called "The Search" or maybe "The Promise". Anyways I treat them as cannon as I think the creators had some input and it fills in a lot of gaps (like the creation of republic city).

Yeah I read them. But I didn't think they really explained Azula than much, aside from "my mother didn't love me"

She gets some closure at the end, but she's still nutty. And doesn't answer the question of "was she first evil and then rejected, or rejected and then evil?"

I guess, for me, Azula was always a bit crazy and Ursa didn't know how to deal with it, which only pushed her daughter more towards Ozai and Zuko away from him.

 

[Chariot]

It's like people are forgetting what Sokka did with Fire Lord Ozai.

Aang looked afterwards a lot better than Korra did. You know, care for friends first, make jokes later

It's like people are forgetting what Sokka did with Fire Lord Ozai.It doesn't mean as much coming from you, you've already shown me your nipples and sharpie your body with names. You probably want to film yourself.

Harsh!
But yeah, I maybe have less problems to film myself than you do. So, what should be my pledge? What do you think I won't like?

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Or how cartoonish of a villain Ozai was.

Yeah. The whole "I'll become the emperor of the world! MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHA" was hilariously cartoonish. They could have done so much more with the character if he was this headstrong military genius who, besides killing people, was actually bringing good to the world in technological advancements and life improvement for those that bowed their heads. But why confuse kids, the people who aren't on your side are evil.

It's like with the guy in Disney's Frozen. She couldn't just

Spoiler

choose to be with the guy she clicked with the most and grew to know and face hardships with outside of an initial superficial infatuation and teach kids that you can't make commitments such as marriage without getting to know the guy first

. OH NO. Kids can't feel bad for somebody's choice. So they

Spoiler

make him go "EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL"

I guess, for me, Azula was always a bit crazy and Ursa didn't know how to deal with it, which only pushed her daughter more towards Ozai and Zuko towards him.

That's how I felt. I felt Azula had a combination of mommy issues plus a bit of psycho in her, and since Zuko was so close to her she would act and lash out at him, which only made her mother protect him more which made her do it more, etc.. rinse and repeat.

Aang looked afterwards a lot better than Korra did. You know, care for friends first, make jokes later

She could've easily passed out from exhaustion, that's what most seemed to have thought. It was an innocent joke after beating the bad guys and saving the day lol it's not like he came in and made a dead babies joke.

I want you to change your avatar. To a male character. That isn't you.

MWUAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Mononoke]

lol if Opal and Su are evil, they will REALLY REALLY REALLY need to try hard to make it all fit together, in way that doesn't feel contrived. I'm totally down if they can pull that sort of thing off. But the way they've handled over-arching plot before, doesn't really have me too enthusiastic.

I really do not understand why Su didn't just kill Korra when she had so many chances. Why Zaheer and co. didn't have more advantages given she had direct access to Korra. And lastly, I don't even see why she needed to kill P'Li. I mean, she could have told P'Li to NOT kill her sister beforehand (to just fight her but not murder her).

It seems really silly, this idea that Su is working with Zaheer, and yet helps destroy him. I get that she would need to stay undercover (I mean I guess), but damn. Just can't get my head around it. Would be pretty crazy way to end Lin and Bolin's plot too (both of them being betrayed by evil people). Would be a very dark end for them lmao.