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Boogie2988: I Am NOT A Bigot. Are You?
- Thread starter HUELEN10
- Start date
Ask game journalists.
This wasn't about politics until the day that articles popped up almost simultaneously on several gaming sites about "gamers being dead".
Then GamerGate Happened.
I just want to read some video game news...
Not agenda pushing, gamer bashing, opinion pieces.
Believe that Thor guy is actually a developer as well.
There's also some lovely tweets of people comparing women who support gamergate to "house negros" but using a more racist term.
I think the worst thing the gaming media could've done was start outright attacking their readers. Its basically a case of the bullied becoming the bullies in a smaller microcosm of society.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Just curious, but why the quotation marks around harassment?
I have NO problem with the kind of feminism that means "Women are equal to men because both men and women are people and all people are equal. lets try to make it so we're all equal in the eyes of the law."
i don't even really have a big problem with whatever modern day feminism is because I don't honestly understand it, or what its goals are.
I plan to watch your videos and I hope to learn more but the point I'm making is this:
Sure PLENTY of people who support gamergate are misogynistic assholes who are watching the world burn and are laughing while it does. BUT I AM NOT ONE OF THEM JUST BECAUSE I PLAY VIDEO GAMES
If you think that just because I own every card in hearthstone I hate women you're as bad as any misogynist who is 'harassing' feminists.
Dude, I think you meant to quote Cyrano, not me
BrokenEchelon
Banned
I didn't realize that the media was becoming the target in all of this. Plenty of people on forums like this are already quite happy to scream mysoginy at anyone who disagrees with them about how to tackle diversity in this medium. It's really weird to me that the corruption in gaming journalism and this social justice debate have gottem so intertwined.
It also reminds me how little I care about the gaming media. I can't remember the last time I bothered going to one of those sites in the graph picture.
It also reminds me how little I care about the gaming media. I can't remember the last time I bothered going to one of those sites in the graph picture.
Marvel
could never
Sad thing is, it's not all teenagers behaving this way but grown ass men and women.
boogie2988
Banned
Because I am 'harassed' every day. want to take a look at my youtube comments for a second?
I've been doxed. I've had videos made about me. I've had people show up at my front door. I've had them send 'nasty' suprises to my po box. I've had them call my house. I've had a swatting attempt.
I know all about harassing and how awful it is. Its part of my job. its also unfortunately part of any job of a public figure these days. It has nothing to do with gaming or game.
it simply has to do with some people being mentally ill and awful.
My heart clearly goes out to zoe and anita and anyone else who is suffering the same fate I am, but unfortunately its part of the job they have chosen. Whether you're a white straight cis male like me or a... whatever they are. (I don't want to label them and be found offensive)
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Again, that's a very false equivalence. Being called a bigot is not the same as the privacy violations, rape threats, and death threats these women are getting. Hell, I'd rather be a called a bigot than go through the excessive flirtation and harassment many women have to go through when they play a game online.I have NO problem with the kind of feminism that means "Women are equal to men because both men and women are people and all people are equal. lets try to make it so we're all equal in the eyes of the law."
i don't even really have a big problem with whatever modern day feminism is because I don't honestly understand it, or what its goals are.
I plan to watch your videos and I hope to learn more but the point I'm making is this:
Sure PLENTY of people who support gamergate are misogynistic assholes who are watching the world burn and are laughing while it does. BUT I AM NOT ONE OF THEM JUST BECAUSE I PLAY VIDEO GAMES
If you think that just because I own every card in hearthstone I hate women you're as bad as any misogynist who is 'harassing' feminists.
We both agree that we don't want gamers to be stereotyped as bigots, but I still think your way of going about it is stifling discussions of other important issues when it could be enhancing them. Gamers aren't bigots, but there still needs to be a discussion about bigotry in video games.
boogie2988
Banned
I honestly cannot imagine for even a second why you wouldn't want to sign that. care to explain? <3
It's just that I'm not seeing anyone making this argument. I am not seeing people saying that all people who play video games are awful people. I'm not seeing people saying all people who play games are misogynistic assholes. (Speaking strictly of articles written, I cannot account for every individual's point of view out there).Sure PLENTY of people who support gamergate are misogynistic assholes who are watching the world burn and are laughing while it does. BUT I AM NOT ONE OF THEM JUST BECAUSE I PLAY VIDEO GAMES
If you think that just because I own every card in hearthstone I hate women you're as bad as any misogynist who is 'harassing' feminists.
So it's a weird point to bring up. It's obvious that not all people who play games are awful. The people who wrote the articles play games themselves. thepotatoman said it rather nicely.
Saying that you aren't a jerk just because you play video games is...well no duh.
boogie2988
Banned
I have been researching the "Notallmen" argument and why it is bad. I've learned a lot from this thread.
I agree entirely that crying "not all gamers are bad" takes away from the discussion that some gamers are bad.
I hope that you'll also agree that saying "all gamers are bad" ALSO takes away from the discussion that some gamers are bad.
I do not know exactly what these women are going through because I am not a woman. But I do know what it is like to be a target of ridicule for something you can't control and how often this happens to a public figure and you are right, it sucks. If its worse for them, my heart sincerely goes out to them.
hbkajshdvfbkjhvgkahsgdfka
Member
Sounds like you're only acknowledging the side that affirms your biases and opinions then.
Well why not cut out the middle man and just subscribe to press releases?
I think that sums up situation in its entirety.
Hear, hear!
Boogie you're a cool dude and all but you're clearly way out of your depth here.
Because there are good commenter's too?
boogie2988
Banned
this exactly. Until it becomes a majority of pain for me, I'll endure the pain so I can allow the kind people to flourish
That's like trying to find a gem in a literal sea of dog shit.
Lashley
Why does he wear the mask!?
I've never seen a youtube video now where the good commenters outweigh the bad
I think that has a lot to do with Youtube's algorithm of putting the most controversial comments to the top of the page, they really need to sort that out.
Because I am 'harassed' every day. want to take a look at my youtube comments for a second?
You know what you should do Boogie - take those comments and make them into a comedy video, kind of like what John Oliver did recently...
http://youtu.be/knbw0gJHHBk
...it would really nullify the hate those comments bring.
Like that old saying goes - 'sticks and stones....'We can have a discussion about bigotry in gaming but there is no way I'm accepting a general unsubstantiated generalisation of gamers as bigots as prerequisite for the discussion to occur. We can have the discussion but at the same time we can't allow false accusations to stick and every effort must be made to show the truth.
DrROBschiz
Member
Its funny how people are calling out Boogie for his strawman arguments
Are you insinuating that anyone has actually contributed anything meaningful to the discussion?
I think its laughable to consider the chaotic and messy nature of internet discourse as meaningful
Its just pulp and raw expression.
Are you insinuating that anyone has actually contributed anything meaningful to the discussion?
I think its laughable to consider the chaotic and messy nature of internet discourse as meaningful
Its just pulp and raw expression.
You know what you should do Boogie - take those comments and make them into a comedy video, kind of like what John Oliver did recently...
http://youtu.be/knbw0gJHHBk
...it would really nullify the hate those comments bring.
Like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I81Kr_y0bA
Classic!
PerezDeCorcho
Member
I love this man.
He's about as close to Internet Jesus as it gets.
He's about as close to Internet Jesus as it gets.
Which are? Debate the issue, don't just strawman me.
If boogie is Jesus then you are God, Eric the shit cock.
That's a thing? That's awful. :/
i was answering someone else's question about why boogie made this video and why he would see it as an issue.
as for me, i couldn't care less if some people think i'm a bigot or a misogynist or racist or homophobic because i'm none of those things. i also couldn't care less about zoe quinn's sex life or anita sarkessian's take on gaming. i don't use twitter so hashtags don't mean shit to me and i haven't been on 4chan in damn near a decade.
i think making serious threats to harm people is inexcusable and i hope they catch the offenders.
the only thing that's come out of this whole debacle that i find interesting is how money (albeit small amounts but from many people) changes hands with people all connected in the industry through those funding sites. it's something that's bothered me about the industry for a long time up to the point that i wrote ben kuchera about it (taking free products and perks from companies whose goods you then review "without bias") when he was still at Ars. he refused to respond but ken fisher (the founder/editor at Ars) did and his response was (a jaw dropping) "it's ok because it's the industry standard and happens all the time" (paraphrased).
anyways, unfortunately that whole thing while be overshadowed by the amount of nonsense going on on both sidelines.
lastly, i've seen some mention that jenn frank quit writing over this?!! jenn frank who wrote "ill out-vicious you anyday"?! that was one of the best lines i'd read from some of her old shit and was hilarious because it was a direct response to someone who'd bit off more than he could chew. sad to see her go. anyone know the details surrounding this?
edit: oh and since boogie is up in here. really enjoy your work man, you're one of the few people on the internet who comes off as sincere to me and it seems you're a pretty kind-hearted guy too. keep making your videos; they're excellent. your passion and excitement is something i wish was present in everyone's work.
KojiKnight
Member
Both sides are using generalizations. Both sides speak out against using generalizing terms. Both sides go "Well duh not EVERYONE, but that's avoiding the issue to do this!". Then both sides argue that the other isn't listening to them and that it's unfair to generalize and amidst the arguing both sides then resume generalizing and we go full circle.
I have no doubt that there are people that want to whole heartedly debate this issue on both sides, but BOTH SIDES playing the hyperbole and blame game doesn't solve anything. I see lots of finger pointing and blame game throughout this thread but I see almost no one suggesting any real solutions on either side... Mind you, I'm not going to try to myself either so that makes me a bit of a hypocrite, but hey what can you do? This type of 'discussion' is a bit interesting to read but a real solution that pleases everyone is going to take time and work and it's not particularly a big issue for me, my wife, or my two daughters (despite what others may claim FOR US) at this time.
I have no doubt that there are people that want to whole heartedly debate this issue on both sides, but BOTH SIDES playing the hyperbole and blame game doesn't solve anything. I see lots of finger pointing and blame game throughout this thread but I see almost no one suggesting any real solutions on either side... Mind you, I'm not going to try to myself either so that makes me a bit of a hypocrite, but hey what can you do? This type of 'discussion' is a bit interesting to read but a real solution that pleases everyone is going to take time and work and it's not particularly a big issue for me, my wife, or my two daughters (despite what others may claim FOR US) at this time.
It seems that way, I think it's the comments that get the most replies get boosted to the top, and of course EVERYONE on youtube takes the bait and replies to troll comments.
Good comments usually get no attention at all amongst the chaos.
DrROBschiz
Member
Welcome to the Futility of Internet Discussion
Camp Freddie
Member
Question begging at it's finest. No one [in game journalism or development] is claiming that each and every gamer is a bigot. They are either claiming that gaming culture is bigoted or that some gamers are bigoted.
My wife would not worry about chatting with a bunch of random music lovers at a gig, or cinephiles at some movie event. She would worry about joining a chat channel in most games. This is because gaming culture is misogynistic, even though the majority of gamers are not.
This whole thing is a failure in reading comprehension by people who don't understand that saying "X are Y" in the English language does not usually mean that "All X are Y". English is not a precise language in that way.
Scotsmen wear kilts; eat porridge (without adding sugar); are thrifty spenders; deep-fry their mars bars; and are left-of-centre politically. This is true without being true of every scotsman.
For a good comparison, consider: "the police are racist".
In the UK, the police and governments own reports (e.g the Lawrence enquiry) literally state that the police are systematically racist.
This (obviously) does not mean that every police officer is a racist. It means that a toxic minority have poisoned the well and influenced the culture of the whole police force. It implies that the police force as a whole should take measures to prevent the toxic minority from flourishing.
Likewise, the majority of non-bigoted gamers need to stand up to the bigots to prevent 'gaming culture' as a whole from being poisoned.
My wife would not worry about chatting with a bunch of random music lovers at a gig, or cinephiles at some movie event. She would worry about joining a chat channel in most games. This is because gaming culture is misogynistic, even though the majority of gamers are not.
This whole thing is a failure in reading comprehension by people who don't understand that saying "X are Y" in the English language does not usually mean that "All X are Y". English is not a precise language in that way.
Scotsmen wear kilts; eat porridge (without adding sugar); are thrifty spenders; deep-fry their mars bars; and are left-of-centre politically. This is true without being true of every scotsman.
For a good comparison, consider: "the police are racist".
In the UK, the police and governments own reports (e.g the Lawrence enquiry) literally state that the police are systematically racist.
This (obviously) does not mean that every police officer is a racist. It means that a toxic minority have poisoned the well and influenced the culture of the whole police force. It implies that the police force as a whole should take measures to prevent the toxic minority from flourishing.
Likewise, the majority of non-bigoted gamers need to stand up to the bigots to prevent 'gaming culture' as a whole from being poisoned.
Come on. Games are increasingly dealing with realism and real world topics nowadays. It is expected to critique their role in society and it is not a recent phenomenon. Titles make you think and question.
Sometimes the games just spawn this sort of discussion naturally. You know, like playing through God Of War and getting subjected to the sex game QTE. Don't know about you but I honestly think "I hope nobody sees me playing this bit" when confronted by something like that. And why is that? Well it is a bit creepy? And before long, real world topics arise!
This isn't to say the fun fluff doesn't exist, it does. You will not find someone going long on ramifications of Rez or Tempest on society because the narrative does not exist.
It's why I take umbrage at people saying that games should only be "fun". I think it is exceptionally narrow. They can also be entertaining or thoughtful, both things that have a sense of fulfillment but might not be directly related to fun.
Which is why it was important that Boogie made this video to set the record straight. More people that see this video, more informed they will be and less futile the discussion will be.
plagiarize
Banned
We shouldn't be angry at the people who think we're all shit bags because of the behavior of a bunch of outspoken shit bags.
We should be angry at the outspoken shit bags making us all look bad.
Pretty straight forwards I think.
We should be angry at the outspoken shit bags making us all look bad.
Pretty straight forwards I think.
You seem incredibly paranoid. I understand you've had issues with bullying and people being jerks, but you should probably take a step back and reread what you just wrote. It reads like someone who is out of touch.
hooijdonk17
Member
I had absolutely no idea wtf was going on, then I listened to Internet Aristocrat, and now I'm speechless..
Holy shit, is all I can say.
Lanrutcon
Member
Classy. I find it hard to sympathize with their cause for some reason.
Sorry but if someones think I'm a shitbag because I'm a gamer, they're shitbag throwing around false accusations.
As someone whose haven from depression has also been gaming for much of my life, just want to say thanks for being such a genuinely kind person Boogie. Regardless of whether people find fault in the delivery of your message, I'm glad that there is someone with a large voice trying to make sure that we are represented as what the vast majority of us actually are, which is kind, tolerant, and diverse, not sexist, racist, or full of hate.
boogie2988
Banned
I'll take that into consideration after I'm less emotionally charged and have gotten some sleep. thanks.
How is it out of touch? it's just the other side of the argument! Seems awfully rational and succinct to me.
Edit: Now I just had a second read, you pretty much strawman Boogie by calling him paranoid and out of touch. Seriously wtf! Argue the issues not the person. Go apologise to Boogie!
This is a great post. It mirrors my feelings about the whole thing.
plagiarize
Banned
You're still angry at the wrong person. They don't think you're a shitbag just because you're a gamer. They think you're a shitbag because they've seen a bunch of gamers being shitbags. It's how most human brains work.
If we all stand against the shitbags rather than just going 'don't call me a shitbag' then ultimately we all win. apart from the shitbags who don't deserve to win.
If I was afraid of being called a name for the stance I take or for the labels I choose to self identify as, I wouldn't be able to stand up for anything.
Fight the battles that make the most sense. If you act all angry towards the people who think gamers are a bunch of assholes already... you're only going to convince more people that gamers are a bunch of assholes.