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[boogie2988]

I have to get some sleep and I should stop attention whoring here... i'll check back in the morning.

But I just want to say that I'm glad that video has opened some logical, open minded, and largely kind debate. Its all I've ever wanted from my youtube channel is to preach equality and help people get to thinking along those lines.

I goto sleep for the first time in a while a happy man and I appreciate you, gaf, for allowing this thread to stay up and for this discussion to flourish.

 

[libregkd]

How is it out of touch? it's just the other side of the argument! Seems awfully rational and succinct to me.

I think he was referring to the part about if someone like CNN picked up on the story then gaming would go into another dark age and suddenly become this taboo thing to do.

Question begging at it's finest. No one [in game journalism or development] is claiming that each and every gamer is a bigot. They are either claiming that gaming culture is bigoted or that some gamers are bigoted.

My wife would not worry about chatting with a bunch of random music lovers at a gig, or cinephiles at some movie event. She would worry about joining a chat channel in most games. This is because gaming culture is misogynistic, even though the majority of gamers are not.

This whole thing is a failure in reading comprehension by people who don't understand that saying "X are Y" in the English language does not usually mean that "All X are Y". English is not a precise language in that way.

Scotsmen wear kilts; eat porridge (without adding sugar); are thrifty spenders; deep-fry their mars bars; and are left-of-centre politically. This is true without being true of every scotsman.

For a good comparison, consider: "the police are racist".
In the UK, the police and governments own reports (e.g the Lawrence enquiry) literally state that the police are systematically racist.
This (obviously) does not mean that every police officer is a racist. It means that a toxic minority have poisoned the well and influenced the culture of the whole police force. It implies that the police force as a whole should take measures to prevent the toxic minority from flourishing.

Likewise, the majority of non-bigoted gamers need to stand up to the bigots to prevent 'gaming culture' as a whole from being poisoned.

This is a fabulous post.

 

[fwpx]

I'll take that into consideration after I'm less emotionally charged and have gotten some sleep. thanks.

That's probably for the best. And I didn't mean my post to be rude or condescending at all. I think "gamer" is a term being claimed by jerks, and we shouldn't let that happen. But the idea of people being chastised for enjoying a hobby like playing video games is sensationalist at best. Don't worry. This'll all blow over.

 

[fwpx]

I think he was referring to the part about if someone like CNN picked up on the story then gaming would go into another dark age and suddenly become this taboo thing to do.

Precisely. I don't see video games doing anything except hitting broader audiences in the years to come. It's only getting bigger.

 

[Fahrenheit]

Didn't really care either way about all this drama till the blogs started this anti gamer thing. It feels like i'm back in high school and the popular kids are giving me shit for playing my GBA at lunch.

 

[Morokh]

I don't even know how and why all this started, and i'm not sure if I ever want to, but I just have one thing to say :

If you discriminate me as a someone who plays games, because you think Gamers are discriminative douchebags by nature, you're not doing it right.

 

[shootfast]

You're still angry at the wrong person. They don't think you're a shitbag just because you're a gamer. They think you're a shitbag because they've seen a bunch of gamers being shitbags. It's how most human brains work.

If we all stand against the shitbags rather than just going 'don't call me a shitbag' then ultimately we all win. apart from the shitbags who don't deserve to win.

If I was afraid of being called a name for the stance I take or for the labels I choose to self identify as, I wouldn't be able to stand up for anything.

Fight the battles that make the most sense. If you act all angry towards the people who think gamers are a bunch of assholes already... you're only going to convince more people that gamers are a bunch of assholes.

Sorry but we fight battles that are right not because we will win.

 

[d9b]

I'll take that into consideration after I'm less emotionally charged and have gotten some sleep.

You made (yet another) great video and I'm 100% with you.
There is a lot of emotions, confusion and agendas around this issue as we speak, I think it's very brave to voice your honest opinion at this particular moment in time. So, thank you!

 

[The Purple Pill]

i like boogie and his videos, he's got a kind heart.

even his "draw my life francis parody", had me getting dem tears rolling.

 

[plagiarize]

Sorry but we fight battles that are right not because we will win.

But if you fight against the actual bigots within gaming, not only do you help stop actual bigotry, but you also help stop people thinking that all gamers are bigots.

You get what you want, and at the same time, you help stop something even worse.

If you don't think fighting against the people who give us all a bad name, and who send tsunamis of hateful shit and death threats at the people like Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn is 'right' then I think you need to take a step back.

You're upset that because of a group you belong to, that you might suffer some form of discrimination. That burns doesn't it? Of course it does. Now imagine how it might feel to be the victim of actual sexual harassment.

Why just help yourself when you can help others arguably suffering worse than you at the same time? Not instead... *but at the same time as helping the image of gamers*. That's what I mean by 'fight the battles that make the most sense'. You could direct your energy in a much better way, that would still help achieve what you are trying to achieve... but that would also help other people. Why the hell wouldn't you want to do that?

 

[bootski]

For a good comparison, consider: "the police are racist".
In the UK, the police and governments own reports (e.g the Lawrence enquiry) literally state that the police are systematically racist.
This (obviously) does not mean that every police officer is a racist. It means that a toxic minority have poisoned the well and influenced the culture of the whole police force. It implies that the police force as a whole should take measures to prevent the toxic minority from flourishing.

Likewise, the majority of non-bigoted gamers need to stand up to the bigots to prevent 'gaming culture' as a whole from being poisoned.

i strongly disagree. police officers who aren't racist carry on their business as usual in their interactions with the public. they aren't asked or expected to apologize for every racist police officer.

i am not a bigot and don't game with any bigots so there is no reason for me to be involved with "standing up" to any bigots.

this argument puts the onus on the innocent members of a culture similarly, as pointed out earlier, to those who say muslims should preface all their political statements with how much they condemn terrorism simply because some muslims are terrorists.

 

[Kocolino67]

I don't know what's right or wrong anymore*. High chance that I never knew to begin with. But this whole "gamers are dead", "bunch of misogynists", and ugly personal attacks from both sides (both = many overlapping mindsets/people/groups with opposing views from all internet and rl spheres) leaves me here feeling pretty much empty.

But thank you Boogie for your this video, your work and your commitment.

 

[BBboy20]

After what transpired last night, Gamer Gate needs to be destroyed. Too much damage has been done and the "few" has managed to pull it off.

I don't know why Boogie isn't seeing this now on just how volatile that "side" has become and they're. not. stopping.

Seriously, fuck "journalistic corruption", fuck "death to gamers", what everyone need to do now is go after these assholes before any more harm is done because they're acting like a god damn weaponized plague.

 

[spirity]

I'm just going to carry on playing video games. That's all I'm interested in. I'll leave the hashtags and drama to everyone else. Have fun, I guess.

 

[Grief.exe]

What I find strange about this whole situation is how the Journalism outlets have handled it.

If they had done a piece of investigative journalism on the situation, then it would have been over and done with. Instead, they put up opinion pieces on how horrible gamers are as people.

Very interesting that they choose fallacy over taking on the argument. Really puts them in a poor position.

 

[Lalalandia]

We shouldn't be angry at the people who think we're all shit bags because of the behavior of a bunch of outspoken shit bags.

We should be angry at the outspoken shit bags making us all look bad.

Pretty straight forwards I think.

This, all the way this. Complaining that people who get a lot of shit from those who self describe as 'gamers' who then turn around and despise the label is classic victim blaming. You want people to lay off the label 'gamer' make videos highlighting that shitbird behaviour has nothing to do with gaming or gaming culture. Of course the problem is that there are significant minorities for whom being a detestable asshole is what 'gamer' means and they will never care that you want the label to be inclusive. For them it is an exclusive label only applicable to those who conform to their narrow definition of a real 'gamer'. The easy way to spot such a person is that they complain that others are inserting 'politics into 'their' games when politics is in literally every form of art and communication there is no such thing as apolitical art so there are no apolitical games.

I'm a gamer but I don't feel insulted when others who are abused by my fellow gamers come to loathe the label. Football fans (read soccer for any american readers) hated how football hooligans came to dominate the debate about football fans in the 70s and 80s but that didn't stop that behaviour. It took the major clubs cracking down and expelling the assholes from the crowds to rescue the football fan from being presumed to be a hooligan. Major gaming sites need to start cleaning their own houses and wield the ban hammer with abandon, this isn't about free speech as every venue involved is a effectively a private club.

 

[shootfast]

But if you fight against the actual bigots within gaming, not only do you help stop actual bigotry, but you also help stop people thinking that all gamers are bigots.

You get what you want, and at the same time, you help stop something even worse.

If you don't think fighting against the people who give us all a bad name, and who send tsunamis of hateful shit and death threats at the people like Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn is 'right' then I think you need to take a step back.

You're upset that because of a group you belong to, that you might suffer some form of discrimination. That burns doesn't it? Of course it does. Now imagine how it might feel to be the victim of actual sexual harassment.

Why just help yourself when you can help others arguably suffering worse than you at the same time? Not instead... *but at the same time as helping the image of gamers*. That's what I mean by 'fight the battles that make the most sense'. You could direct your energy in a much better way, that would still help achieve what you are trying to achieve... but that would also help other people. Why the hell wouldn't you want to do that?

Sorry but having suffered victimisation due to my skin colour, I refuse to accept fault from people who can't see past the difference between a shitbag and a gamer. Allowing a sweeping generalisation of gamers will never help deal with sexual harassment. How you deal with sexual harassment is by DEALING WITH SEXUAL HARESSMENT!

Edit: Pointing out we can deal with people who call us shitbags and people who are shitbags at the same time. Doing one thing does not preclude us from the other.

 

[KojiKnight]

What I find strange about this whole situation is how the Journalism outlets have handled it.

If they had done a piece of investigative journalism on the situation, then it would have been over and done with. Instead, they put up opinion pieces on how horrible gamers are as people.

Very interesting that they choose fallacy over taking on the argument. Really puts them in a poor position.

One is about disseminating information about a current trend, the other is a 'big click' initiative... It's easy to tell why they went for one and not the other.

 

[Winter John]

What I find strange about this whole situation is how the Journalism outlets have handled it.

If they had done a piece of investigative journalism on the situation, then it would have been over and done with. Instead, they put up opinion pieces on how horrible gamers are as people.

Very interesting that they choose fallacy over taking on the argument. Really puts them in a poor position.

It's probably because most of the gaming press consists of glorified bloggers rather than actual journalists that there has been no investigative journalism.

 

[plagiarize]

Sorry but having suffered victimisation due to my skin colour, I refuse to accept fault from people who can't see past the difference between a shitbag and a gamer. Allowing a sweeping generalisation of gamers will never help deal with sexual harassment. How you deal with sexual harassment is by DEALING WITH SEXUAL HARESSMENT!

Erm. Exactly. And if you deal with sexual harassment then we stop the sweeping generalizations of gamers at the same time.

What you're refusing to do is to help women while simultaneously helping gamers. You're just helping gamers as if the bigger problem is that some people think all gamers are bad.

 

[KojiKnight]

Erm. Exactly. And if you deal with sexual harassment then we stop the sweeping generalizations of gamers at the same time.

What you're refusing to do is to help women while simultaneously helping gamers. You're just helping gamers as if the bigger problem is that some people think all gamers are bad.

That is a MASSIVE and DANGEROUS leap of logic there my friend.

 

[thepotatoman]

I have been researching the "Notallmen" argument and why it is bad. I've learned a lot from this thread.

I agree entirely that crying "not all gamers are bad" takes away from the discussion that some gamers are bad.

I hope that you'll also agree that saying "all gamers are bad" ALSO takes away from the discussion that some gamers are bad.

I do not know exactly what these women are going through because I am not a woman. But I do know what it is like to be a target of ridicule for something you can't control and how often this happens to a public figure and you are right, it sucks. If its worse for them, my heart sincerely goes out to them.

And I may have overlooked the harassment you get for what you do and how you look and I'm sorry about that. I just think that type of harassment is what these journalists want to stop and maybe the type of thing you should find encouraging rather than depressing. At the very least I can say with confidence that they are not encouraging that type of harassment even if they call every gamer alive a bigot.

As for the people who say "gamers are misogynistic", I agree they limit discussion too and should not say those things, but I'm not sure they mean to insult every single last gamer out there with an implied "all", nor do I think its common for it to be said in that way in popular media.

 

[jabuseika]

What you're refusing to do is to help women while simultaneously helping gamers.

Gamers are also women, about half of them.

 

[komplanen]

I honestly cannot imagine for even a second why you wouldn't want to sign that. care to explain? <3

I don't believe in some imaginary video game industry -vs- gamers war that you do.

 

[unround]

That is a MASSIVE and DANGEROUS leap of logic there my friend.

Why? Women are being forced out of this industry right now by mass hararassment and a fairly large contingent of people seem more concerned about telling others about how they totally aren't bigots, guys, why are you lumping us all together?

 

[shootfast]

Erm. Exactly. And if you deal with sexual harassment then we stop the sweeping generalizations of gamers at the same time.

What you're refusing to do is to help women while simultaneously helping gamers. You're just helping gamers as if the bigger problem is that some people think all gamers are bad.

I'll just put my edit addenum from above, sorry about editing it.

Pointing out we can deal with people who call us shitbags and people who are shitbags at the same time. Doing one thing does not preclude us from the other.

I intend to do both, I have no time and place for people who attack anita sorensen but at the same time I have no place for people who attack gamers in general.

 

[Lime]

Weird, "destroying corruption in games" looks a lot like "bullying the tiny minority of women who are in the games industry until they quit"

 

[KojiKnight]

Why? Women are being forced out of this industry right now by mass hararassment and a fairly large contingent of people seem more concerned about telling others about how they totally aren't bigots, guys, why are you lumping us all together?

There is a huge difference between who he was talking about talking about not using hate to stop hate, and the person I quoted saying "If you are protecting gamers, you're harming women".

It's vitriol at best, and an outright insulting lie at worst. It's language like that that makes discussions break down into people attacking each other and digging their heels in deeper because the 'opposing sides' don't really want to talk, they want to apply blame.

 

[shootfast]

Why? Women are being forced out of this industry right now by mass hararassment and a fairly large contingent of people seem more concerned about telling others about how they totally aren't bigots, guys, why are you lumping us all together?

We are concerned about both, doing something about one does not preclude us about the other.

 

[Dragon]

You're still angry at the wrong person. They don't think you're a shitbag just because you're a gamer. They think you're a shitbag because they've seen a bunch of gamers being shitbags. It's how most human brains work.

If we all stand against the shitbags rather than just going 'don't call me a shitbag' then ultimately we all win. apart from the shitbags who don't deserve to win.

If I was afraid of being called a name for the stance I take or for the labels I choose to self identify as, I wouldn't be able to stand up for anything.

Fight the battles that make the most sense. If you act all angry towards the people who think gamers are a bunch of assholes already... you're only going to convince more people that gamers are a bunch of assholes.

Of course it's worse to be a bigot, however painting everyone with a broad brush is also quite ridiculous and irrational and isn't helping anything.

Treating everyone in a group of people the same way because of the actions of a few is how a ton of people rationalize bigotry. It's sorta ironic. Neither one is okay and by arguing this line it does not mean one is a bigot. It just means one is looking for reason and rationality where there isn't any.

We need reasonable people who aren't ready to scorch the earth with vitriol. Because frankly that's what the side they're decrying IS doing. I'm talking more specifically about the journalists. There is literally no other medium where it's acceptable to write articles like Leigh's about the target audience.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Hey guys, boogie here.

This video just came about because I had a fucking breaking point. After being involved in this for about 20 days and being pulled in every direction both by the internet and by my own internal conflict in all of this I kind of just lost my shit.

The point of the video was pretty simple. I think MOST people are good, I think MOST gamers are good, and I think that EVERYONE taking a bad rap for a handful of shitty people is wrong.

I obviously care about equal rights of all types. I attempt to champion it. I succeed rarely and fail most of the time, but my message on twitter and youtube is always this; You are equal to everyone and no one is better than you. be kind.

I'm so very frustrated right now after a LIFETIME of fighting for 'gamers' to be an ok thing to see it get pushed back very, very far.

I've read your criticisms here and I agree that this was probably a misfire. I knew I was going to regret turning on the camera and talking about it and after reading this thread, of course I do.

But please understand it comes from a good place. Two wrongs never make a right and smearing the name of gamers and reading things like "All gamers are worthless" and "All gamers are neckbeards" and "All gamers are misogynists" is fucking killing me inside. I snapped. I lost it. I poured that emotion out in a video and its helped me. I think I might sleep tonight.

Not my best work though and I'll take your criticisms to heart. thanks for watching the video.

Hey man, first of all, I want to say your videos are awesome and you're one of the best public figures gaming has. Nobody is as genuine and honest as you, and that's exactly the kind of person you're proving yourself to be again here.

Did you jump the gun a little? I'd say sort of. I understand why you'd take issue with what you've seen going on, and especially how much the gaming community and gaming culture means so much to some people and why it would be so upsetting to see it being villified. Sure, you extended it to a blanket statement, but your heart was in a good place and the source of your frustration is justified. Nobody wants to see a community they've invested so much time and love into shit upon. I think what people are taking issue with is the fact that not everyone pushing for a divorce from the term "gamer" is trying to paint gamers or their community as evil (although some are) but rather to see it integrated into society as a respectable medium of entertainment, and even of literature, according to some people. Some people might have seen your video as unfairly attacking these people, hence the straw men comments and criticisms of generalization.

But it's obvious that you wouldn't have a problem with these people. Anyone who's seen your videos would know this. What you do have a problem with - the people who exemplify negative gaming stereotypes and the people who enforce prejudice against the community - are real problems. You have a right to be angry and you have a right to speak your mind. I think you're capable of discussing this intellectually and rationally, so maybe remake the video? Like I said, your heart is gold, you just need to refine your ideas and be a little less reckless with your statements.

That's my two cents. I'm glad you entered this thread, that was real cool of you to do.

 

[Lalalandia]

Why? Women are being forced out of this industry right now by mass hararassment and a fairly large contingent of people seem more concerned about telling others about how they totally aren't bigots, guys, why are you lumping us all together?

This is the thing I don't get Person A gets a a lot of abuse from people who self identify as a members of Group B, Person A grows tired of the abuse and lashes out at Group B, this then seems to lead to some portion of Group B deciding that Person A is at fault for lashing out at Group B and further abusing them. Instead what should be happening is that those who don't support the abusive members of Group B should be reaching out to Person A and saying 'hey those assholes don't really represent Group B, while I may disagree with you I respect and support your right to your opinions'.

 

[bootski]

Why? Women are being forced out of this industry right now by mass hararassment and a fairly large contingent of people seem more concerned about telling others about how they totally aren't bigots, guys, why are you lumping us all together?

Why? i can easily explain why.

racism against the black minority is occurring right at this very moment in the US. it's systemic (pay scales, police actions, etc) and has cost many black people their lives. much worse than a voluntary withdrawal from a profession.

by the logic being used by your argument (unround & plagiarize), everyone person who is not actively engaged in some sort of protest is silently FOR racism. they're racists. if you're not out tomorrow protesting against racism, you're a racist!

it sounds pretty stupid when framed a little different right?

 

[Zen_Arcade]

We shouldn't be angry at the people who think we're all shit bags because of the behavior of a bunch of outspoken shit bags.

We should be angry at the outspoken shit bags making us all look bad.

Pretty straight forwards I think.

No, people, especially if they're minorities who constantly get generalized against because of the behavior of a few bad people, should know better then to generalize themselves by saying that that a whole group of people does something.

That's like saying you shouldn't get mad at racists for being racist and everyone should just get mad at the few black people who do bad things and make the rest of the black population look bad. You should be mad at both, because both are shitty things to do. There is never a time where generalizing negative stereotypes is a good thing.

 

[ZenTzen]

We shouldn't be angry at the people who think we're all shit bags because of the behavior of a bunch of outspoken shit bags.

We should be angry at the outspoken shit bags making us all look bad.

Pretty straight forwards I think.

i'm sorry but if someone goes insulting us and still ignores us when theres reasonable discussion going then they are shitbags as well

in these pass few weeks its been shown that theres stupid people from both sides, not just those outspoken idiots you speak of

 

[timmy]

all I wanted to say is that people who are not involved need to get involved if they value their hobby because we're about to re-enter the shit I went through in highschool. When this gets picked up by CNN and the like, and i believe it will at this point, we're fucked. Get ready to be pantsed by jocks for having a game on your fucking phone. Get ready to have to hide the fact that you play video games from people at the office.

I think your use of the word "re-enter" shows a fundamental lack of perspective. That shit is going on right in front of everyone's eyes, only in this case it's women who are getting picked on instead of chubby or skinny dudes. And what they're going through is a lot worse than pantsing.

 

[Corpekata]

Why? i can easily explain why.

racism against the black minority is occurring right at this very moment in the US. it's systemic (pay scales, police actions, etc) and has cost many black people their lives. much worse than a voluntary withdrawal from a profession.

by the logic being used by your argument (unround & plagiarize), everyone person who is not actively engaged in some sort of protest is silently FOR racism. they're racists. if you're not out tomorrow protesting against racism, you're a racist!

it sounds pretty stupid when framed a little different right?

It sounds stupid because the way you framed it doesn't make sense. For it to work, you'd need to have people constantly telling people about how they're not a racist.

 

[boogie2988]

One last thing. I sure hope I don't get banned for my participation in this thread. I love gaf and I'm very glad to be a part of it.

IDK if/when I broke any rules here today and I hate to wake up to find out that I have and am out of here for it. If that turns out to be the case, i'll understand.

but I just hope we can get back to the point that we can just set this and any other war aside and get back to discussing the games.

 

[Lime]

If you support #gamergate at all, you are supporting a gross mob that has only run minority voices out of gaming & harassed people. There are no two sides to #gamergate the same way that there are no two sides to arguing about Obama's birth certificate

 

[plagiarize]

Why? i can easily explain why.

racism against the black minority is occurring right at this very moment in the US. it's systemic (pay scales, police actions, etc) and has cost many black people their lives. much worse than a voluntary withdrawal from a profession.

by the logic being used by your argument (unround & plagiarize), everyone person who is not actively engaged in some sort of protest is silently FOR racism. they're racists. if you're not out tomorrow protesting against racism, you're a racist!

it sounds pretty stupid when framed a little different right?

I never said that and I don't think that. But I do think that you are wasting any energy spent criticizing the people who have been given an incorrect opinion of gamers rather than going after the hateful people who have caused that impression to be fostered.

 

[Fehyd]

Weird, "destroying corruption in games" looks a lot like "bullying the tiny minority of women who are in the games industry until they quit"

That's extremely unfair and simplistic. I could just ad easily say "wow defeating misogyny in gaming" looks a lot like "denying women and minorities who disagree a voice."

This is a strawman of epic proportions.

 

[wowlace]

Fuck ALL this shit, really. It's such a waste of time.

 

[Dragon]

I also think that lumping everyone into some overarching group describing everyone who plays games is fruitless. The people who are on Twitter on both sides of this issue are people invested in the industry in some way. It's more than just a person who plays games. For me and I'm sure a lot of people on GAF we talk about games all the frigging time.

There are awful people who have threatened and ridiculed people for doing and saying things they don't agree with. I am not saying that I support or encourage this behavior. On the contrary I think it's despicable and worth mocking and attacking for its lack of empathy among other things.

I'm also not going to think it's okay to spout hateful speech about some group some other people have decided is at fault.

It is okay for me to believe that. It is not contradictory. It is perfectly rational. And frankly the most rational. By saying I hate what's going on with both of these groups of people, it does not mean I accept either side that's flinging shit. Both sides are not thinking clearly and need to take a step back.

 

[airjoca]

21st century witch hunts eh?

How far we've come.

 

[Paracelsus]

The cinephile example is bad much like the music one, again because there's not one genre eating into the others. You have random fads taking the spotlight (see: super heroes) but every genre can be pandered at the same time with no repercussions.

Casual gaming does eat into the hardcore market due to the always increasing budgets and the brutally competitive northamerican market: it happened before, it happens now, it'll happen until there's near to nothing left, other than some indie or fan projects. If publishers see the revenue is into pay-to-win, that's where they will go, and they won't push traditional experiences any longer. If they do push traditional experiences, they will be tweaked so that they reach the lowest common denominator. They will be casualized.

This is not even about bigotry, but to see people pretend a gamer is like a cinophile is like they never even seriously looked at how gaming is handled compared to other industries.

The best comparison is once again: professional wrestling.

WWE sees there's money in pushing a no-talent super hero figure in John Cena, because kids look up to him and have their parents buy them truckloads of merchandise. Higher-ups pushing John Cena ended up obliterating the roster and the product because everything revolves around him. X is the champion? We'll still push Cena. Young upcoming superstar? Let's feed him to Cena. They made anything else completely meaningless.

Long time fans of technical wrestling and old school edgy storylines hate him, and consequently they hate his fans who allow this to happen, kids who know no better. Try saying you're a Cena fan. On the other hand, these people who hate Cena are (were, since they were legitimated by the product eventually turning beyond awful) treated like social outcasts, basement dwellers, neckbeards by mainstream fans who know no better. Sounds familiar?

I once made another comparison between wrestling and gaming: Lightning is John Cena. Mary Sue icon of a terrible product which once was an outstanding one, many fans beg the company to stop going back to anything associated with her yet they keep pushing for more because it resonates well with the mainstream masses.

 

[andymcc]

It sounds stupid because the way you framed it doesn't make sense. For it to work, you'd need to have people constantly telling people about how they're not a racist.

and he's creating a parallel based on reactions to race and socio-economic status, not self-identification based on a hobby of choice.

 

[Fehyd]

If you support #gamergate at all, you are supporting a gross mob that has only run minority voices out of gaming & harassed people. There are no two sides to #gamergate the same way that there are no two sides to arguing about Obama's birth certificate

This is completely toxic. If it really was so black and white #notyourshield would not a thing.

But then the common response is that "well these people are just internalized hatred or all of them are shilling.

The other side of the gamergate argument is so patently invested in making this a sexism issue, when most on the gamergate side don't even really care.

 

[bryehn]

I'm not backing down, i stand by the video. But I'm saying its a misfire because it did not adequately communicate the point that I wanted to make to the gaffers and I really wish that it had. I'll blame my exhaustion over the issue and other personal issues I'm having.

all I wanted to say is that people who are not involved need to get involved if they value their hobby because we're about to re-enter the shit I went through in highschool. When this gets picked up by CNN and the like, and i believe it will at this point, we're fucked. Get ready to be pantsed by jocks for having a game on your fucking phone. Get ready to have to hide the fact that you play video games from people at the office.

If people speak up before that happens maybe they'll report that, too.

WTF dude, it's not the 80s.

 

[KojiKnight]

This is the thing I don't get Person A gets a a lot of abuse from people who self identify as a members of Group B, Person A grows tired of the abuse and lashes out at Group B, this then seems to lead to some portion of Group B deciding that Person A is at fault for lashing out at Group B and further abusing them. Instead what should be happening is that those who don't support the abusive members of Group B should be reaching out to Person A and saying 'hey those assholes don't really represent Group B, while I may disagree with you I respect and support your right to your opinions'.

Here's the thing, a lot of people from group B did just that (go and read the thread about the whole situation with Anita fleeing her home). Thing is that group A decided that if anyone associates with Group B, then they are all the sum of their worst parts.

Both group A and group B (in large, there are people who self associate with A and B but aren't apart of the greater group mentality) know that the behavior of some of the people in group B is deplorable. The majority opinion of group A (as per twitter, gaming journalism, etc) is that all of group B should be ridiculed/disbanded and that everyone who is good in group B should leave group B and form a new group C or D. That if anyone stays in group B, they are automatically the racists/misogynists/etc.

No one is saying there isn't a problem. No one is saying that those assholes bringing down group B shouldn't be dealt with. The problem is that a lot of people in group B feel that group B is still overall a positive thing, and that to try and destroy group B because of a minority membership is damaging to their identity as individuals and as a whole.

So now, effort that should be spent on removing those assholes is being blown in a war of "group B is bad, get rid of them" and "Not all of group B is bad, stop lumping us all with the few assholes."

No one wins in this scenario as both group A and group B should be focusing their attention on the fucking assholes but instead it's easier for both sides to fight a war of attrition on semantics and generalizations (which both sides say are bad, but that both sides continue to use all will-nilly like).

 

[andymcc]

This is completely toxic. If it really was so black and white #notyourshield would not a thing.

But then the common response is that "well these people are just internalized hatred or all of them are shilling.

The other side of the gamergate argument is so patently invested in making this a sexism issue, when most on the gamergate side don't even really care.

wasn't the #notyourshield hashtag also pretty much orchestrated by 4ch?