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[plagiarize]

Seriously do people think that "We aren't ask like that!" does more for our image than to be seen going after the problem?

Why waste time on the reaction to the problem when we could be fixing the problem?

Quite how saying that is claiming people focusing more on our image than the problem are bigots, I'm not sure.

Boogie isn't a bigot. I just think he could have done more for gaming and our image by redirecting his energies.

 

[Dragon]

I never said that and I don't think that. But I do think that you are wasting any energy spent criticizing the people who have been given an incorrect opinion of gamers rather than going after the hateful people who have caused that impression to be fostered.

No they're not. Both are perfectly rational.

It is not rational to belittle someone who is encouraging people to think deeper about how women are presented in games.

I think we'd both agree there. And that's largely the tipping point to this current situation.

It's not rational to think that every member of some group is acting the same way though either. The people with the voices, journalists, etc have largely been irrational about this issue. They have the most impact and also need to change their tack.

Seriously do people think that "We aren't ask like that!" does more for our image than to be seen going after the problem?

Why waste time on the reaction to the problem when we could be fixing the problem?

Quite how saying that is claiming people focusing more on our image than the problem are bigots, I'm not sure.

Boogie isn't a bigot. I just think he could have done more for gaming and our image by redirecting his energies.

Why is it wasting time? You're just repeating yourself.

I frankly don't care what random people think about a group I supposedly belong to, however it is wrong to lump people together. Period. I'm not sure what's hard to see about that.

 

[Cygnus]

One last thing. I sure hope I don't get banned for my participation in this thread.

How on earth would you?

 

[Fehyd]

wasn't the #notyourshield hashtag also pretty much orchestrated by 4ch?

Because 4chan is the cathedral of misogyny.

Funny thing there's a lot of overlap between 4chan, reddit, tumblr, and gaf.

So I guess the thousands of people #notyourshield are all fake accounts right?

 

[bootski]

I never said that and I don't think that. But I do think that you are wasting any energy spent criticizing the people who have been given an incorrect opinion of gamers rather than going after the hateful people who have caused that impression to be fostered.

then i apologize. it's the impression that i got from reading your previous posts.

what action would you suggest people take against 4chan trolls though? i think the reason that people are standing up for gamers is because they ARE gamers, so they're in essence defending themselves. what could you possibly do against a nameless, faceless internet mob of shitheads outside of just ignoring them?

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Seriously do people think that "We aren't ask like that!" does more for our image than to be seen going after the problem?

Why waste time on the reaction to the problem when we could be fixing the problem?

Quite how saying that is claiming people focusing more on our image than the problem are bigots, I'm not sure.

Boogie isn't a bigot. I just think he could have done more for gaming and our image by redirecting his energies.

We can do both. It's like asking black people "Why are you wasting your time pointing out racism when you could be out making your community better and fixing the problem so people don't talk that way about you in the first place?"

 

[BBboy20]

but I just hope we can get back to the point that we can just set this and any other war aside and get back to discussing the games.

There won't be a reversal of this. It's quite apparent what this movement actually is and it won't stop until it's dead.

 

[APF]

I feel like the only legitimate concerns--demanding disclosure of personal relationships and contributions to crowdsourced projects--have largely been addressed by two major targets of ire from gamergate (Kotaku and Polygon). Now it seems like a witchhunt to both see who might have had some connection to Zoe Quinn and drive possible "SJW" journalists to leave the industry via overwhelming harassment. If I were a gaming journalist, I'd also have a very bitter feeling about a good portion of my audience, because the channels of communication they have to them is overwhelmingly caustic, and that includes this forum. If we want to consider ourselves a community, I don't think it's particularly useful to completely overlook this fundamental reality about how *we* act. If gaming journalists hate their own audience, maybe that does mean we should engage in a little self-reflection, and maybe we should alter how we communicate our concerns so it's not just one-sided shit flinging.

 

[andymcc]

Because 4chan is the cathedral of misogyny.

Funny thing there's a lot of overlap between 4chan, reddit, tumblr, and gaf.

So I guess the thousands of people #notyourshield are all fake accounts right?

I would say a good portion of the initial posts were fake, sure.

 

[unround]

Here's the thing, a lot of people from group B did just that (go and read the thread about the whole situation with Anita fleeing her home). Thing is that group A decided that if anyone associates with Group B, then they are all the sum of their worst parts.

Both group A and group B (in large, there are people who self associate with A and B but aren't apart of the greater group mentality) know that the behavior of some of the people in group B is deplorable. The majority opinion of group A (as per twitter, gaming journalism, etc) is that all of group B should be ridiculed/disbanded and that everyone who is good in group B should leave group B and form a new group C or D. That if anyone stays in group B, they are automatically the racists/misogynists/etc.

No one is saying there isn't a problem. No one is saying that those assholes bringing down group B shouldn't be dealt with. The problem is that a lot of people in group B feel that group B is still overall a positive thing, and that to try and destroy group B because of a minority membership is damaging to their identity as individuals and as a whole.

So now, effort that should be spent on removing those assholes is being blown in a war of "group B is bad, get rid of them" and "Not all of group B is bad, stop lumping us all with the few assholes."

No one wins in this scenario as both group A and group B should be focusing their attention on the fucking assholes but instead it's easier for both sides to fight a war of attrition on semantics and generalizations (which both sides say are bad, but that both sides continue to use all will-nilly like).

Have you considered that many members of group A actually belonged to group B, once upon a time, and that's part of why they're so angry at them? That they've been a part of this culture and seen how toxic it can be, especially to minorities, and that's why they've renounced it and are snapping at the people defending it?

 

[BrokenEchelon]

There won't be a reversal of this. It's quite apparent what this movement actually is and it won't stop until it's dead.

The movement won't stop until it kills itself?

 

[Kurdel]

Pretty weak argument that amounts to a simple "no true scottsman" fallacy...

 

[jaosobno]

One last thing. I sure hope I don't get banned for my participation in this thread. I love gaf and I'm very glad to be a part of it.

IDK if/when I broke any rules here today and I hate to wake up to find out that I have and am out of here for it. If that turns out to be the case, i'll understand.

but I just hope we can get back to the point that we can just set this and any other war aside and get back to discussing the games.

My friend, what you need to do is: just relax. Nobody gets banned from GAF for posting their opinion in a civilized way. I personally appreciate you being a part of this discussion. Not many people have the courage to participate in a discussion about their work. For that, I applaud you.

 

[Lime]

The other side of the gamergate argument is so patently invested in making this a sexism issue, when most on the gamergate side don't even really care.

uh huh

Funny how women are the ones being targeted and as a a result quitting the games industry because of constant harassment, along with denial by ones "championing" #gamergate or whatever the hell. Must be accidental.

Point is, whether or not people care about whether or not this is a sexism issue, you *factually* have women being targeted and harassed and having to quit online spaces and the whole shitty games industry because these people are actively harmed and hurt. It is extremely tragic and sad to see people pushing against an already harassed group of writers because of misguided understanding.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Oh wow. I might actually throw up. This is exactly what me and many others are talking about. This fucking, disgusting generalization.

This is nothing more than Nazi tactics. You pick a group of people based on something they do or the way they were born (in this case, being born white, male and like to play games) and label them as something sub-human.

Exactly. It's bullshit and if it was being done to any other group of people there would be a huge shitstorm but because they're attacking gamers and by default the stereotypical white male gamer it's ok. Shit like that in that image is uncalled for. I don't care what side you're on when you threaten people, threaten their families, call them subhuman pieces of shit like that then you are a scumbag. This goes for both sides of this bullshit.

I just cannot fucking believe that someone like Boogie can make an honest, from the heart video like that, and people still pour in this thread shouting about straw-man arguments, accusations of having an agenda and generally being annoyed that he hasn't taken "the right side". Fuck me I am tired.

I seriously cannot take this discussion anymore. It is destroying communities as we speak and it seems like nothing can stop it. Rational discussion surrounding this topic is always ruined by hateful, angry people from both sides, everyone is lumped into one or two groups so they can be labeled "properly" and those on the outside, who might not be gamers, are now spouting hatred towards gamers on social media. I'm done, this is not going to work out in anyone's favor, and it only gets worse from here. Fuck it.

Seriously Boogie, thank you for being honest, brave and willing to stand up for what you love, whilst promoting intelligence, equality and kindness. I sincerely apologize that so many here are accusing you of bad intentions and I think anyone with a brain can tell that you mean nothing but good. Sadly, for many people on the internet right now, if you don't align yourself 100% on the side of feminists you're automatically wrong and often seen as a "bad person".

Nobody is going to win in this pointless, self-destructive and utterly-ineffective social justice "war". In the end everyone is going to be hurt, gamers (along with all the rational feminists, MRA's, etc.) are going to look bad in the eyes of the world unjustly and the games themselves are going to suffer too, as developers now have to constantly worry about being dragged into this mess if they ever make mistakes.

So I'm sorry you got dragged into this mess too Boogie, just know that I stand with you, not only as someone who stands for equality for everyone, but also as someone who wants nothing to do with either "side" of this "war".

Exactly. All this "war" is going to do is hurt everyone on both sides who aren't raving assholes. The fringe assholes on both sides spewing vile hateful bullshit don't give a damn what anyone thinks of them. So they'll not be hurt because they didn't give a shit to begin with. They just wanted to be hateful pieces of trash and this gave them the excuse to in their eyes.

It's really pathetic that people feel the need to lump everyone into some group anymore so that they can hate on them and treat them like shit. Course who knows. We see this attitude in everything now days. Politics, religion, etc. Now days it's you're with us or you're subhuman scum. There is no middle ground anymore. There is no debating anymore. It's two sides no matter what the subject yelling at each other telling each other that they're a piece of shit while some other extreme trash on both sides sling death threats, harass people, etc.

Some days it makes you so tired and really makes you want to hate the entire human race.

 

[ZenTzen]

uh huh

Funny how women are the ones being targeted and as a a result quitting the games industry because of constant harassment, along with denial by ones "championing" #gamergate or whatever the hell. Must be accidental.

Point is, whether or not people care about whether or not this is a sexism issue, you *factually* have women being targeted and harassed and having to quit online spaces and the whole shitty games industry because these people are actively harmed and hurt. It is extremely tragic and sad to see people pushing against an already harassed group of writers because of misguided understanding.

If you support #gamergate at all, you are supporting a gross mob that has only run minority voices out of gaming & harassed people. There are no two sides to #gamergate the same way that there are no two sides to arguing about Obama's birth certificate

yeah because there definetly isnt people that doxxed a 10 year old kid for a difference of opinion and showing behavior as toxic as that minority you speak of

 

[KojiKnight]

Let's take a different approach to this for a second... Not 'what is a gamer', but rather 'what is it about the word or group 'gamer' that makes people want to defend it?'

Why don't the 'good' gamers make a new group? Someone mentioned earlier they could be called 'game players' or 'players' for short. Besides the fact that the shortened version has a few negative associations on it's own, it seems like a good solution right?

Except that 'gamer' is something that myself and many other over the last 20 years have tried to turn into a positive thing. When I was growing up and even all the through most of my teen years being a 'gamer' was a negative thing. It was associated with lazy, slow, unthinking, and often times violent children (the news loved those stories). As a whole, gamers grew and did GREAT things over the years. We started organizing, planning, and working together. We weren't just playing games anymore, as adults we were contributing. We made and participated in big charities like Child's Play. We formed groups and associations that volunteered at hospitals, we stood our ground against things like bullying in schools and that video games weren't the root of violent actions in people.

Yeah, we've always had shitty members in the 'gamers' club... We all had our laughs at the 'dude bros' and such... but as gamers we felt like we had started to get greater acceptance outside of our circle.

Then this shit started to go down, now we're being told that all of the stuff that most of us worked hard to achieve, to the greater acceptance of 'gamer' in culture at large is now completely worthless. That once again, everyone has to use 'gamer' in hushed voices outside of our communities because we'll be ridiculed or told that we are terrible human beings... All of this because of a minority of assholes... Yeah, people are going to defend being a 'gamer'.

Everyone is in agreement that the assholes need to be removed from the game communities. Everyone agrees that what happened to Anita, no matter her opinions was absolutely terrible. So if everyone agrees on this, WHY are we attacking gamers at large versus targeting the assholes? Why is one side spending valuable resources attacking a group and another valuable resources defending such attacks?

Why can't we all just fucking go after the assholes? Ban them from our communities. Have developers being more proactive to ban them from their games. God damn people, you don't burn down a forest when you only need to cut down a few rotted trees.

 

[eyeless]

I do not know exactly what these women are going through because I am not a woman.

here you go, as a warning this is horrifying not safe for life threats of sexual assault https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160/photo/1
http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/96569154020/yes-please-explain-to-me-again-how-this-has
i would be interested if your response to this kind of thing would still be "unfortunately that's the job they have chosen" and that some person who i personally have never come across, who says "if you play video games you are a misogynist", is as bad as the above people

 

[Gattsu25]

We can do both. It's like asking black people "Why are you wasting your time pointing out racism when you could be out making your community better and fixing the problem so people don't talk that way about you in the first place?"

Please don't evoke Natural's Law in this argument while sipping on diet soda.

 

[54-46!]

There won't be a reversal of this. It's quite apparent what this movement actually is and it won't stop until it's dead.

Why contain it?

 

[Fehyd]

uh huh

Funny how women are the ones being targeted and as a a result quitting the games industry because of constant harassment, along with denial by ones "championing" #gamergate or whatever the hell. Must be accidental.

Point is, whether or not people care about whether or not this is a sexism issue, you *factually* have women being targeted and harassed and having to quit online spaces and the whole shitty games industry because these people are actively harmed and hurt. It is extremely tragic and sad to see people pushing against an already harassed group of writers because of misguided understanding.

If you feel that way then please, illustrate to me how the majority of those who are supporting gamergate are women haters looking to force women out of the industry.

Is it possible to want ethical integrity for journalists, and also not support misogyny?

 

[SerTapTap]

Great video, can't believe this controversy is going on. Everyone's talking past each other and almost no one being tarred and feathered on either side is actually deserving of it. Completely random journalists targeted, the general audience of "gamer" targeted, disgraceful as all hell.

I know it's just an act but I like boogie's videos 1000x more when's calm like this.

 

[plagiarize]

We can do both. It's like asking black people "Why are you wasting your time pointing out racism when you could be out making your community better and fixing the problem so people don't talk that way about you in the first place?"

Totally off topic, and I presume this is just a bad analogy but if you do think racism towards black people is caused by issues within the black community you really need to rethink things. A lot of things.

Again, I'm presuming it's just a bad analogy, not calling you a racist.

 

[APF]

One reason it doesn't really make sense to draw comparisons between the oppression of African Americans in the US and gaming journalists being bitter towards their audience is that gamers make up close to 60% of the population and are not a social or economic minority. And also haven't been enslaved, politically disenfranchised, or subject to hundreds of years of institutional racism.

If you feel that way then please, illustrate to me how the majority of those who are supporting gamergate are women haters looking to force women out of the industry.

Is it possible to want ethical integrity for journalists, and also not support misogyny?

Unfortunately, while there may be some people who want more transparency (see my post, it's an issue that's being addressed but the attacks keep going!), they are being drowned-out by witch hunts of harassment that have already driven GOOD people like Jenn Frank out of the industry.

 

[Mman235]

Boogie. Dude. I'm honestly not trying to be mean, but this is ridiculously paranoid. The reason gaming doesn't have much of a stigma these days is because everyone plays games, not because we went through some kind of cultural shift where suddenly people started being nicer to gamers but nothing else changed.

A Twitter flame war, even a large one, is not going to change that. It's not even going to register on most people's radars. Yes, even if it gets reported on by CNN. It's just so unbelievably minor. The demographic of people who play games has vastly expanded, period. Twitter flame wars don't cause major cultural shifts. If they did, the gaming industry would be full of women and minorities right now.

I can understand that it might feel like the bullying you've experienced in the past is making a comeback, but you've seen Twitter battles before, right? This stuff blows over. I honestly feel like you'd be much better served by just sitting this one out and letting the angry people shout themselves out, rather than coming in and giving cover to the people who are just mad about "sjws."

In addition to this, games are now one of the biggest entertainment industries there is, which gives them a lot of power at this point; while the media can publish the occasional "games are evil" thing, going too far and stepping over the line isn't in the media's interest at all as they would lose a major revenue source.

 

[bootski]

here you go, as a warning this is horrifying not safe for life threats of sexual assault https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160/photo/1
http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/96569154020/yes-please-explain-to-me-again-how-this-has
i would be interested if your response to this kind of thing would still be "unfortunately that's the job they have chosen" and that some person who i personally have never come across, who says "if you play video games you are a misogynist", is as bad as the above people

woowwwwww that is fucking insanity. except for this thread and reading a lil bit here and there about the zoe quinn i haven't really followed the drama but that stuff is absolutely top-rung sexism. my heart really goes out to anyone who has to deal with that kind of abuse, especially that one lunatic who train posts.

 

[Dragon]

Please don't evoke Natural's Law in this argument while sipping on diet soda.

Referring to yourself in the third person in a post on GAF should be a law as well...

 

[Sakwoff]

uh huh

Funny how women are the ones being targeted and as a a result quitting the games industry because of constant harassment, along with denial by ones "championing" #gamergate or whatever the hell. Must be accidental.

Point is, whether or not people care about whether or not this is a sexism issue, you *factually* have women being targeted and harassed and having to quit online spaces and the whole shitty games industry because these people are actively harmed and hurt. It is extremely tragic and sad to see people pushing against an already harassed group of writers because of misguided understanding.

Thank you. This is exactly the reason why I have a problem with all the "who cares this is drama about a non-issue" sayers.

There are women being actively pushed out of the games space right now. Did you know that Jenn Frank recently quit? I mean, Jenn fucking amazing writer Frank? The games space is going to be so much fucking poorer if this shit continues. I really don't see how otherwise reasonable people can respond to this with "but there IS corruption" and not see the REAL fucking problem we are having here.

And no, there are no two sides to this. There is no "both sides" here. There is one mob that's harassing and threatening already marginalized people, and EVERYONE ELSE should be against this.

 

[E92 M3]

Seems like because I don't participate in Twitter or any other social network, my brain isn't filled with all of these hastags movements or whatever. I say we enjoy video games like the hobby that they are.

 

[Vlade]

If you feel that way then please, illustrate to me how the majority of those who are supporting gamergate are women haters looking to force women out of the industry.

Is it possible to want ethical integrity for journalists, and also not support misogyny?

The problem is that they are overly concerned about themselves and the perceived slights they have received. Is not that there isn't a complaint, it's that it is minor in comparison and is somehow connected somehow. Do you know the history of gamergate and what they are aligning themselves with? Here i am judging people, right? If you see it that way, that's your problem i guess, right? Terrible logic.

The movement is sad.

 

[Lalalandia]

Here's the thing, a lot of people from group B did just that (go and read the thread about the whole situation with Anita fleeing her home). Thing is that group A decided that if anyone associates with Group B, then they are all the sum of their worst parts.

Both group A and group B (in large, there are people who self associate with A and B but aren't apart of the greater group mentality) know that the behavior of some of the people in group B is deplorable. The majority opinion of group A (as per twitter, gaming journalism, etc) is that all of group B should be ridiculed/disbanded and that everyone who is good in group B should leave group B and form a new group C or D. That if anyone stays in group B, they are automatically the racists/misogynists/etc.

No one is saying there isn't a problem. No one is saying that those assholes bringing down group B shouldn't be dealt with. The problem is that a lot of people in group B feel that group B is still overall a positive thing, and that to try and destroy group B because of a minority membership is damaging to their identity as individuals and as a whole.

So now, effort that should be spent on removing those assholes is being blown in a war of "group B is bad, get rid of them" and "Not all of group B is bad, stop lumping us all with the few assholes."

No one wins in this scenario as both group A and group B should be focusing their attention on the fucking assholes but instead it's easier for both sides to fight a war of attrition on semantics and generalizations (which both sides say are bad, but that both sides continue to use all will-nilly like).

I'm a gamer and will continue to use that label despite the negative connotations old and new that come with that label. The only thing any one of us can do to rescue the label is to continue to behave in a fashion that makes you proud to use the label with someone outside this community. I can't think of a way to explain this whole situation to someone outside the community that didn't acknowledge the overwhelming and disproportionate amount of hate women are taking in this whole thing.

I've seen a few riot analogies and they come closest to this for me, every riot usually has a reasonable kernel but when the city is burning down around you doing anything beyond condemning the violence comes across at best as condoning it and at worst as endorsing it.

I don't personally believe there was ever anything worth discussing at the base of this whole mess beyond the standard risks of 'soft' corruption that come from knowing the people you report on. This is a fact of life for any reporter on any topic, particularly those who need to develop relationships to get stories e.g. crime reporters tend to have a pro-police bias as they need police cooperation to get leaks and tips, political reporters need 'access' and are often compromised by it, defence reporters love them some high price tag toys, etc, etc. Trying to discuss these points when the whole topic has been hijacked by awful people for awful ends is a waste of time.

 

[GitarooMan]

I can't believe so many people buy into this new tack that "both sides are equally as bad," that is classic misdirection and one of the oldest tricks in the playbook.

 

[jimi_dini]

Except that 'gamer' is something that myself and many other over the last 20 years have tried to turn into a positive thing. When I was growing up and even all the through most of my teen years being a 'gamer' was a negative thing. It was associated with lazy, slow, unthinking, and often times violent children (the news loved those stories). As a whole, gamers grew and did GREAT things over the years. We started organizing and doing good things. We weren't just playing games anymore, as adults we were contributing. We made and contributed to big charities like Child's Play and the like. We formed groups and associations that volunteered at hospitals, we stood our ground against things like bullying in schools and the like.

Yes this.

I'm playing games for ages. That makes me a gamer. Period. The word is fine. I won't change that, just because some asshole bullies want me to change it. And I also won't change it just because some other assholes are part of the extremely large "gamer" group nowadays.

That's like telling soccer fans, that they shouldn't call themselves soccer fans anymore, because there are also assholes in that extremely large group.

 

[KojiKnight]

I'm a gamer and will continue to use that label despite the negative connotations old and new that come with that label. The only thing any one of us can do to rescue the label is to continue to behave in a fashion that makes you proud to use the label with someone outside this community. I can't think of a way to explain this whole situation to someone outside the community that didn't acknowledge the overwhelming and disproportionate amount of hate women are taking in this whole thing.

I've seen a few riot analogies and they come closest to this for me, every riot usually has a reasonable kernel but when the city is burning down around you doing anything beyond condemning the violence comes across at best as condoning it and at worst as endorsing it.

I don't personally believe there was ever anything worth discussing at the base of this whole mess beyond the standard risks of 'soft' corruption that come from knowing the people you report on. This is a fact of life for any reporter on any topic, particularly those who need to develop relationships to get stories e.g. crime reporters tend to have a pro-police bias as they need police cooperation to get leaks and tips, political reporters need 'access' and are often compromised by it, defence reporters love them some high price tag toys, etc, etc. Trying to discuss these points when the whole topic has been hijacked by awful people for awful ends is a waste of time.

Yeah I agree with this 100%, and because of it I think I'm going to end up leaving this thread. I never meant to stay in it but the topic is divisive and 'loud' and it just does things to people.

 

[Fehyd]

The problem is that they are overly concerned about themselves and the perceived slights they have received. Is not that there isn't a complaint, it's that it is minor in comparison and is somehow connected somehow. Do you know the history of gamergate and what they are aligning themselves with? Here i am judging people, right? If you see it that way, that's your problem i guess, right? Terrible logic.

The movement is sad.

To be honest I feel like gamergate would be better if feminists supported it and helped shape the narative away from misogyny towards the purpose of ethics.

What your saying is akin to saying someone should not support feminism because it has roots in communism and many of its original free thinkers are avowed man haters. That doesn't mean the message isn't worthwhile and that doesn't mean feminism is about communism or misandry.

Maybe someone should come out against nepotism with their own movement?

 

[bootski]

Thank you. This is exactly the reason why I have a problem with all the "who cares this is drama about a non-issue" sayers.

There are women being actively pushed out of the games space right now. Did you know that Jenn Frank recently quit? I mean, Jenn fucking amazing writer Frank? The games space is going to be so much fucking poorer if this shit continues. I really don't see how otherwise reasonable people can respond to this with "but there IS corruption" and not see the REAL fucking problem we are having here.

And no, there are no two sides to this. There is no "both sides" here. There is one mob that's harassing and threatening already marginalized people, and EVERYONE ELSE should be against this.

hey where's this jenn frank quitting thing coming from? i've seen some twitter posts from her alluding to her being "done" but has she formally made a statement about it?

 

[Lime]

If you feel that way then please, illustrate to me how the majority of those who are supporting gamergate are women haters looking to force women out of the industry.

Is it possible to want ethical integrity for journalists, and also not support misogyny?

How about you don't fucking rally behind a hashtag that targets women? How about you actually start listening to what is being said and look at what your actions are doing to actual people who are hurt and harmed? How about you push back against the despicable misogynerds?

Or let me just post this:

Why No One Will Address Your Perfectly Reasonable Concerns

before I get too much alcohol in me, I have to write a quick thing about the #gamergate kerfluffle from my own perspective, to give you an idea of how it might appear to be failing in the eyes of people like myself. I won’t be talking about any of the “actual issues” here or in replies, and as far as I can tell, by refusing to do so, I am doing exactly what is expected.

the first thing I saw happening, before I even saw the hashtag, was several of the women I follow on Twitter (and several that I don’t) being harassed, threatened, and generally made to feel incredibly ill. this was the first wave of attackers, the troll regiment.

it wasn’t until most of them had already been blocked or ignored that the second wave appeared - the Activists with Really Genuine Concerns About Corruption in the Video Game Industry - asking mostly-genuine questions to those very same women who had just been terrorized.

"why don’t you want to have a rational discussion about this?" they would say, after being told to "fuck off" by various people who were now adrenaline-drunk after wondering whether they were safe in their own homes. "we just want this movement to get media attention," they would say, while simultaneously ignoring the threats of physical violence that had come before, or outright denying their existence, or blaming their victims for manufacturing them.

in this sense, #gamergate has been successful. they have succeeded in silencing women by making it impossible to tell whether their next email, or twitter mention, or phone call will be from someone who will make them fear for their lives; and by doing so, they can claim that their cause is just, because no one will answer their real questions.

as a movement, it doesn’t look like anything.

 

[Sakwoff]

Seems like because I don't participate in Twitter or any other social network, my brain isn't filled with all of these hastags movements or whatever. I say we enjoy video games like the hobby that they are.

The thing is, there are a good amount of people who I believe would really love to do this. But they cannot, because they are targeted by a hate mob that uses "ethics" as a smoke screen to push them out of games entirely.

I mean, good thing you can, but you gotta admit this is a pretty damn sad state of affairs.

 

[Clockwork5]

Hey guys! I play games too and no one cares, no one thinks I'm a bigot and when I tell them about the nonsense that goes on in the dark gaming corner of the internet we all have a good chuckle.

 

[Sakwoff]

hey where's this jenn frank quitting thing coming from? i've seen some twitter posts from her alluding to her being "done" but has she formally made a statement about it?

No. Just read her recent tweets. Let's just say we're goddamn lucky if she doesn't.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Totally off topic, and I presume this is just a bad analogy but if you do think racism towards black people is caused by issues within the black community you really need to rethink things. A lot of things.

Again, I'm presuming it's just a bad analogy, not calling you a racist.

I don't think it's caused by the black community, but racism isn't that far removed from what's happening here. Both situations are people generalizing a whole group of people based off the actions of a few of them. The whole point of me saying that was to show you how ridiculous your statement was. If you switched "Gamer" to "Black People" and told them that they should stop calling out people for having a generalizing viewpoint, you'd be laughed out of the discussion and people would tell you that that behavior is unacceptable.

Like I said before, there is no good time for negative generalizations, even if some of the people within the group you're generalizing against are really shitty people. It does nothing but muddy the discussion, because now you're offending and accusing innocent people of horrible things based off the actions of others. This is the worst way to get your point across, and the best way to get people to stop listening to you. People are going to stop paying attention because they don't like to be insulted for no reason and told they are bad people simply because they share a hobby with some people who are. All generalizing does is stir more shit. It's a lazy, ineffective way to get your point across and it shouldn't be swept to the side just because some of the people in the group they're generalizing about are in fact dickheads.

Essentially, bad behavior shouldn't be ignored, even if it's in response to even worse behavior. Especially when that bad behavior does nothing but make it harder to reasonably discuss something. If a person comes into a discussion with the mindset that all gamers are assholes, they're being just as toxic and useless to the discussion as someone who comes into the discussion thinking that women are trying to ruin the game industry just because they want to be included in it.

 

[jaosobno]

Let's take a different approach to this for a second... Not 'what is a gamer', but rather 'what is it about the word or group 'gamer' that makes people want to defend it?'

Why don't the 'good' gamers make a new group? Someone mentioned earlier they could be called 'game players' or 'players' for short. Besides the fact that the shortened version has a few negative associations on it's own, it seems like a good solution right?

Except that 'gamer' is something that myself and many other over the last 20 years have tried to turn into a positive thing. When I was growing up and even all the through most of my teen years being a 'gamer' was a negative thing. It was associated with lazy, slow, unthinking, and often times violent children (the news loved those stories). As a whole, gamers grew and did GREAT things over the years. We started organizing and doing good things. We weren't just playing games anymore, as adults we were contributing. We made and contributed to big charities like Child's Play and the like. We formed groups and associations that volunteered at hospitals, we stood our ground against things like bullying in schools and the like.

Yeah, we've always had shitty members in the 'gamers' club... We all had our laughs at the 'dude bros' and such... but as gamers we felt like we had started to get greater acceptance outside of our circle.

Then this shit started to go down, now we're being told that all of the stuff that most of us worked hard to achieve, to the greater acceptance of 'gamer' in culture at large is now completely worthless because of a minority of assholes... Yeah, people are going to defend being a 'gamer'.

Everyone is in agreement that the assholes need to be removed from the game communities. Everyone agrees that what happened to Anita, no matter her opinions was absolutely terrible. So if everyone agrees on this, WHY are we attacking gamers at large versus targeting the assholes? Why is one side spending valuable resources attacking a group and another valuable resources defending such attacks?

Why can't we all just fucking go after the assholes? Ban them from our communities. Have developers being more proactive to ban them from their games. God damn people, you don't burn down a forest when you only need to cut down a few rotted trees.

Everyone should read this post. Seriously. Best thing I've seen in this thread.

 

[bootski]

No. Just read her recent tweets. Let's just say we're goddamn lucky if she doesn't.

lol as stupid as it makes me feel to say this, i don't know how to read a twitter timeline. from trying to read her twitter, it seem's she's having partial conversations with other people. when i click on the tweet, i only see a few other tweets of support for her. it does seem like she's having it out/ being harassed by some group of people but i can't tell from where. anybody help? just pm me links or something.

 

[Ol No Bones]

When are people going to realize that sexism, misogyny, racism etc are characteristics of individuals and not something that specific groups of people typically will have. What I mean is that while some gamers may be sexist or racist that doesnt necessarily make gamers sexist. You aren't going to change anyone's mind or heart by calling a large group of innocent individuals mean names.

Maybe I'm missing something. I don't know. I can't see a satisfying end to any of this for any side and I'm not sure what people are trying to accomplish.

 

[HUELEN10]

Let's take a different approach to this for a second... Not 'what is a gamer', but rather 'what is it about the word or group 'gamer' that makes people want to defend it?'

Why don't the 'good' gamers make a new group? Someone mentioned earlier they could be called 'game players' or 'players' for short. Besides the fact that the shortened version has a few negative associations on it's own, it seems like a good solution right?

Except that 'gamer' is something that myself and many other over the last 20 years have tried to turn into a positive thing. When I was growing up and even all the through most of my teen years being a 'gamer' was a negative thing. It was associated with lazy, slow, unthinking, and often times violent children (the news loved those stories). As a whole, gamers grew and did GREAT things over the years. We started organizing and doing good things. We weren't just playing games anymore, as adults we were contributing. We made and contributed to big charities like Child's Play and the like. We formed groups and associations that volunteered at hospitals, we stood our ground against things like bullying in schools and the like.

Yeah, we've always had shitty members in the 'gamers' club... We all had our laughs at the 'dude bros' and such... but as gamers we felt like we had started to get greater acceptance outside of our circle.

Then this shit started to go down, now we're being told that all of the stuff that most of us worked hard to achieve, to the greater acceptance of 'gamer' in culture at large is now completely worthless because of a minority of assholes... Yeah, people are going to defend being a 'gamer'.

Everyone is in agreement that the assholes need to be removed from the game communities. Everyone agrees that what happened to Anita, no matter her opinions was absolutely terrible. So if everyone agrees on this, WHY are we attacking gamers at large versus targeting the assholes? Why is one side spending valuable resources attacking a group and another valuable resources defending such attacks?

Why can't we all just fucking go after the assholes? Ban them from our communities. Have developers being more proactive to ban them from their games. God damn people, you don't burn down a forest when you only need to cut down a few rotted trees.

Trying to catch-up with the thread and saw this post. I think this is a very valid, very sound viewpoint on some of the issues here. Good post.

 

[Novel Mike]

I can't believe so many people buy into this new tack that "both sides are equally as bad," that is classic misdirection and one of the oldest tricks in the playbook.

Except its true.

Not everyone attached to either side is saying crazy things but a lot of people are. Even the more moderate people are still just talking at people, not talking with each other to come to any kind of understanding.

Thats why its true. Both sides would rather just yell at each other and attack the worst offenders of bother groups instead of listening to problems that both sides have. There are real problems with game journalism and corruption (Watch Dogs event gave out free tablets to reviewers, review parties in general are setup to give reviewers the best possible experience while reviewing, Microsoft gave out Slim 360 to everyone who attended the reveal event [I think was e3?], youtubers making videos in support of certain companies and being paid for it and not disclosing it to their audiences, ect)

And at the same time there are real problems with harassment and misogyny that developers/publishers/video makers suffer from (Death threats to many different women, the entire Zoe Quinn black lash, Everything that happened to Phil Fish, CoD developers being threatened for fixing bugs that provided people an advantage, just in general large portions of the gaming audience being very vocal and angry about minor things all of the damn time, ect).

These are REAL issues that both sides have a right to talk about but no one is talking with each other, everyone is just yelling back and forth and nothing is getting done.

It's like 2 armies are fighting a war without any leadership and so there is no control over who is saying what and why and there won't be any real resolution to this. Both sides think what they're doing is going to 'win' something for them or someone else and in this case there isn't any real clear endgame on either side.

 

[Objectively Bad Opinion]

How about you don't fucking rally behind a hashtag that targets women? How about you actually start listening to what is being said and look at what your actions are doing to actual people who are hurt and harmed? How about you push back against the despicable misogynerds?

Or let me just post this:

Hashtags can't target women because they are not people. People on both sides of the argument are using that hashtag. It's just a label.

It sucks they got harrassed by some people (not hashtags, people) but that doesn't preclude the hashtag leading to legitimate discussion.

But I guess it's not surprising that the same group of people who made a concerted effort and in a day flooded the internet with click-bait garbage articles generalizing a diverse group of people, would... generalize a diverse group of people.

I don't think the calls to be rational about this are unwarranted. It doesn't take much effort to discern whether or not something is a personal attack and dismiss it. Or at least it shouldn't.

 

[Zombie James]

The anti-gamer bullshit coming from the gaming press is idiotic, to put it mildly. Boogie is spot-on.

 

[marrec]

I find it odd that people are still trying to frame this as a linguistic debate when it was never that to begin with. It's not about the word 'gamer' but about the shifting demographics that are leaving behind the traditional stereotypical definition of the word.

 

[JCH!]

I find it highly amusing how you guys get all exited at the slightest whiff of drama. People on both sides writing mile-long posts only to tell others they are wrong. As if it mattered. As if you were going to achieve anything or change people's minds this way.

Maybe I just have a weird sense of humour.