KojiKnight
Member
And yet, rereading it I notice I sound like a raving lunatic
I'm going to go back and clean it up a little at least.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Boogie2988: I Am NOT A Bigot. Are You?
- Thread starter HUELEN10
- Start date
And yet, rereading it I notice I sound like a raving lunatic
I'm going to go back and clean it up a little at least.I completely agree with this. People are up at arms about two different issues, and they're viewing the other issue as counter to their chosen issue, even though they don't actually conflict.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Why are you on a discussion board if you think it's weird that people would want to discuss things?
Except it isn't.
That's the thing. There are no two sides. The whole "two sides" thing is a construct that makes the whole thing look like something it really isn't. Like something that the hatemob would really welcome. Us vs. them. Classic.
The thing is, this is not a war. This is not a game where one side can "win". This is a group of harassers targeting individual people. There is no "other side".
And yet, rereading it I notice I sound like a raving lunatic
It's perfectly fine. Leave it as it is.
HUELEN10
Member
If it makes any sense, choppiness aside, your meaning was clear, just like Boogie's vid because it was from the heart.And yet, rereading it I notice I sound like a raving lunatic
https://storify.com/JJJJQQQQ/jenn-frank
Here you go. I'm sure the stream of abuse she was recieving was just from people who were very concerned about journalistic ethics and totally not from misogynists.
GitarooMan
Member
I can't see how these things are equally as bad, that's my point. This "ethics in gaming journalism" stuff is laughable from my end because journalism for entertainment industries (including movies, music, not just games) has always been in bed with the industry, and nobody in general really gives a shit because it's just hobbies and entertainment; they're not covering the UN. On the other hand, death threats, harassing people out of shear frustration and hatred, that is much worse. The problems on one side affect people's lives; the "problems" on the other might keep someone awake at night because a game they hate was rated too highly.
Pretty much.
Oh, maybe I didn't explain myself properly. I don't find it weird that people want to discuss things, I just find how involved and exited people get over internet dramz amusing. That is all.
ab.aeterno
Member
It's interesting to see so many people get upset at feeling victimized by feeling unwelcome in their hobby. Congratulations, you now know how many minorities have been made to feel too.
I mean, I keep reading people say how Not All Gamers, how they personally believe in equality, etc. Then where the fuck have people been when it came to calling out the people who are doing the harassing? Because it certainly wasn't in the voice chat of any games I've played, and only rarely in the text chat of a game. Contrast that with the number of people I've seen who say it isn't an issue... well, one of those numbers is much bigger than the other. And it isn't the people who made it clear they wouldn't tolerate discrimination.
If the community was capable of self policing and people made it known that misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc and the people who spew it aren't welcome, we wouldn't be having such a huge problem now.
I mean, I keep reading people say how Not All Gamers, how they personally believe in equality, etc. Then where the fuck have people been when it came to calling out the people who are doing the harassing? Because it certainly wasn't in the voice chat of any games I've played, and only rarely in the text chat of a game. Contrast that with the number of people I've seen who say it isn't an issue... well, one of those numbers is much bigger than the other. And it isn't the people who made it clear they wouldn't tolerate discrimination.
That is demonstrably false, and a generalization without foundation. Which is ironic given the context of fighting against a generalization you disagree with. You've just dismissed a very real contingent of people who don't see any issue with what's happening or how, including the people who are doing it, as not existing.
As someone else keeps pointing it, you're making a false dichotomy that presents one at the expense of the other, instead of both happening simultaneously.
If the community was capable of self policing and people made it known that misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc and the people who spew it aren't welcome, we wouldn't be having such a huge problem now.
Are both sides equally wrong?
The #gamergate side is full of this sort of shit, especially at the start:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwEefh5IcAAG_ob.jpg:large
It was full of people misleading other people into believing that impropriety was happening when it wasn't.
It was started based on an alleged claim of a breach in journalistic integrity yet was dominated by discussions about a dev's 'infidelity' with much fewer mentions of the invented breach of ethics from the journalist.
It involved hacking a game developer to the point where they closed shop (he prolly hakked hisself, lol).
It involved an attempted hacking attempt into a games journalist that forced them to quit the field.
It involved repeated attacks on women in gaming and repeated attacks on people that wanted to defend equality.
Yeah, both "sides" have done wrong but to claim that both are equally shitty is a misdirection.
StreetsAhead
Member
Maybe it's a difference in time of when we grew up, but I have been bullied just as much, if not more, by other gamers online as I have been bullied by non-gamers in real life. I've been called a fag, weaboo, dumbass and race-traitor by other gamers for things like saying I like Nintendo, Pokemon or just 'Japanese games in general', among other things. I've been called a traitor (and worse) for calling out Nintendo on some things by Nintendo fans. I received horrible PMs, filled with vile insults and empty threats on Serebii.net when I defended the site's owner (and my friend) during the leak of Pokemon Black & White's starter evolutions. Unfortunately, I deleted them all because I didn't want to look at such awful things in my inbox forever.
Now, there are plenty of good people in and around the community. I love GAF, because even though I'm not always level-headed on here, the level and types of discussion here feel slightly above (on average) the types of discussion about things that go on on other forums I've visited.
No, you are just seeing the foundation behind the movement.
From where I'm standing it all looks like videogame industry is at the point of eating itself.
Gaming press handled all of this very poorly, from the moment of Z.Q. incident onwards. Maybe we don't need "gaming press" any more at this stage, the lines between PR and press is very blurry these days anyway.
p.S. Boogie2988 please don't stop. Ever!
Gaming press handled all of this very poorly, from the moment of Z.Q. incident onwards. Maybe we don't need "gaming press" any more at this stage, the lines between PR and press is very blurry these days anyway.
p.S. Boogie2988 please don't stop. Ever!
hooijdonk17
Member
Objectively Bad Opinion
Member
I thought this started with Zoe Quinn? Not Anita? How is Anita's rapist vampire stalker relevant?
SerTapTap
Member
To me the difference is shitty people are saying shitty things towards game journalists, but otherwise sensible people are saying shitty things towards gamers in general. I can't really affect change outside of my social sphere, which unsurprisingly universally looks down on people like the one you listed. There's nothing to be gained by dogpiling on something we all know is wrong.
Now, when these otherwise sensible people start going on rants about "gamers" and "virgins" and "neckbeards" they're saying shitty things about innocent people and it's being accepted as okay because they're angry, because the issue they're talking about is important, etc. But that doesn't mean the way they're actually talking about that issue isn't problematic as hell. You can absolutely decry bigotry, even in gaming, without all this "ALL GAMERS ARE VIRGIN NERDS" crap, you in fact harm your argument a lot by stooping that low.
And yeah, don't even try to say anyone reacting to the anti "gamer" talk is actually supporting bigoted assholes like the tweets you quoted, completely different issue.
FF Seraphim
Member
I think it has more to deal with how some of the articles were written more than anything else. They contain emotionally fueled verbiage and once a person takes the context as against them and what they do, they will natural defend what they consider their "comfort zone".
For example the classic phrase: "God is Dead" a heavily religious person would go no further than that and the context of morality is utterly lost on them perceiving an attack on their belief. Same thing I think happened with the "Gamer is Dead", plus the fact the mass majority of those people were against the sites who posted them didn't help matters much...
foundation of what, go see gamer gate tweets, and you'll see they are very much against that stuff
i'll leave this here
http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/
Wait, I thought this all started with a Kotaku writer who wrote a phantom review that praised Quinn's game after sleeping with her?
Why did you immediately jump to Quinn as the genesis of this all when it was supposedly started by a breach in journalistic integrity (a breach that never happened as there was no review and there was no positive press coverage for her and her free game).
Even when this was about Quinn it was focusing on the wrong side. If there was a breach in journalistic standards then why was the focus on her and her fucking 'infidelity'?
This applies to this video and the bunch of "gamers" who are offended by labelling specific gamers as misogynerds:
And this applies to KojiKnight's post that some people keep quoting.
And this applies to KojiKnight's post that some people keep quoting.
Anectodal and/or isolated evidence of one side's wrong as defense of the other will not go very far in any kind of morality discussion, sir. For every such twitter account you post I could probably post a dozen more that's oppressive towards 'gamers', or post something like, say, this:
Not that it would make me any more right. The thing is, there is a side in the argument that is on a moral high ground, and they aren't the 'better evil' at all. Yes, both sides are shittty is a misdirection (and a copout) but #gamergate are not the bad guys here, and painting them as such is just.. I don't know, to me, absurd.
You do realize they're joking there right? Even TFYC have admitted they weren't DDOSed by now.
Objectively Bad Opinion
Member
Don't try to change the subject. Explain why you posted that image, which as far as I can tell is irrelevant, as Anita has nothing to do with this and hasn't been referenced even in passing in any discussion of this subject I've had the chance to glance over.
StreetsAhead
Member
Oh my goodness, I just tried to watch that 'Quinnspiracy Theory' video on the recommendation of others in this thread.
"Gaming journalism has reached a low point over the past 5 years. It started with pieces that had nothing to do with gaming...It started to travel off into the areas of social justice and feminism...that had nothing to do with gaming."
Watching a little further, it seems very obvious that when the video talks about 'gamers' what it really means and what it wants to focus on is actually just 'male gamers'.
"Gaming journalism has reached a low point over the past 5 years. It started with pieces that had nothing to do with gaming...It started to travel off into the areas of social justice and feminism...that had nothing to do with gaming."
Watching a little further, it seems very obvious that when the video talks about 'gamers' what it really means and what it wants to focus on is actually just 'male gamers'.
hooijdonk17
Member
The point is not what the actual deed was; The person you posted did not go on to murder any parents or chidren either, did he? As a sidenote, I also realize that people saying gamers are abortions that lived does not make me one. I'm trying to argue a moral point, not prosecute an actual offense.
lol you do not understand the Kill All Men? I can't believe anyone would take it seriously. It's a joke. Read this http://www.thewire.com/culture/2014...-prove-feminists-want-to-kill-all-men/359493/
They told people to go to the site on twitter and the site crashed under load. No DDOS actually took place.
redwolflim
Neo Member
There is a #notyourshield movement regarding the #gamergate issue, where some SJW group accused us as racist white male gamer (I am Asian). This is a serious accusation to us and I dont think we need to stay silent and do nothing.
Here's the proof
http://imgur.com/W19DcVg
Here's the proof
http://imgur.com/W19DcVg
Let me tell you who is receiving harassment & threats:
- Zoe Quinn
- Mattie Brice
- Kris Ligman
- Brianna Wu
- Maddy Myers
- Jenna Frank
and possibly many, many others. Everyone under the #gamergate umbrella. And now Jenna Frank and Mattie Brice have quit because of all this shit and the people piling on them.
Good job! Good job fighting against corruption in the video games industry! Good job understanding the argument behind the "gamers are dead" articles! Good job running out the insightful voices in the games industry and culture!
KojiKnight
Member
It's not about both sides being 'equally wrong', and engaging in that as a metric for a discussion gains nobody anything. "Yay we're team less wrong!" isn't exactly a great position to hold either.
Target the assholes. Game developers should be more proactive in banning people who spew vitriol in general. Game communities have mods and devs who should be banning such people (one of the reasons NeoGAF is such a strong community IMO are the stricter, but still fair, guidelines for the community). Game journalists should be promoting communities and developers and encouraging others not living up to those standards to do the same.
Are there ways around bannings? Yeah, but if someone has to spend $40 to rebuy a game every time they want to go on a sexist rant they'll start thinking about it a little bit harder.
How about some call to action on the leaders of communities/games that can actually make a difference instead of labeling an entire group as bad?
Target the assholes. Game developers should be more proactive in banning people who spew vitriol in general. Game communities have mods and devs who should be banning such people (one of the reasons NeoGAF is such a strong community IMO are the stricter, but still fair, guidelines for the community). Game journalists should be promoting communities and developers and encouraging others not living up to those standards to do the same.
Are there ways around bannings? Yeah, but if someone has to spend $40 to rebuy a game every time they want to go on a sexist rant they'll start thinking about it a little bit harder.
How about some call to action on the leaders of communities/games that can actually make a difference instead of labeling an entire group as bad?
Novel Mike
Member
I agree... to a point. I agree with everything you said except I also think we should be having a proper discussion about corruption in games journalism, simply that it exists in other media doesn't mean we should ignore it in our industry. I haven't said it as much on gaf but my personal opinion is we have really shitty game journalists and considering how big our industry is its rather sad how very few sites exist out there with any real journalistic integrity. I'm not simply speaking about people who have an agenda on the sites either, EVERYONE has an agenda and of course every article will have some bias because of it, what I'm talking about is misrepresentation, flat out lying in articles, and very poor reporting (think how many sites this year had to retract something they reported on that ended up being false? Watch Dogs canceled on Wii U, the Call of Duty WW1 game, ect), and just flat out bribery (Such as the Watch Dogs review event giving away free tablets) and non-disclosure of benefits being provided by developers and publishers for coverage.
It is a real problem its just being completely overshadowed by the hate that's being spewed from the real problem of the industry: The shitty people who do shitty things.
plutoknight
Member
I feel like you wrote this after watching 'Team America: World Police' (There are three types of people in this world!)
The issue I have with this is that you don't solve violence with violence. This goes on both sides, too (which is especially ironic for one half of the argument, as I understand it). I still think that article from Forbes the other day hit the nail on the head. I think the internet as perpetuate a lot of this cycle of hate, and 'gamers' just happen to be, traditionally, RIGHT in the crosshairs of mayeb SJW/Feminist debates (Can you tell a gamer from someone who laughs at celebrity nudies being leaked, claiming it's karma because 'no girl like you would date me despite me being nice'?)
In fact, I think what's happened here is....we ARE the assholes. We've BECOME the assholes. And that's why we're being targeted. We are the picture-perfect enemy of SJW's and feminists around the world, simply based on past stereotypes. This is the same kind of ideals that create religious violence around the world; hell, this is the root of racism, attacking one type of people because they don't think like you!
We can fight it (thus continuing this war into perpetuity), or we can accept it (thus...continuing this war into perpetuity). You can't win against a socially-dominate force, no matter how logical or sound your argument is -- the tables have flipped instead of balancing out. This is modern day social activism -- taking the things X did, and doing them to Y instead of trying to figure out how to stop it entirely. Unfortunately, the social activists who simply want to stop the violence get overshadowed by those simply flipping the script and directly violence away from them.
It sucks.
FYI,
#notyourshield is a deflection tag created by 4chan so that 'classical minorities' can shield them from attacks and potentially garner support for the gamergate movement.
The irony that #notyourshield was started by 4chan to literally *be a shield* is blowing my mind?
It's a pretty fucking terrible 'joke'.
Well so far that has been an incredibly effective astroturfing campaign, trying to (and from the looks of it, succeeding at) create a controversy where there were none (namely an absurd conspiracy theory).
As i said already, truly an embarrassing display for the gaming sphere, though i won't blame too much the more casual onlookers being confused as to whatever the hell is going on; i couldn't understand where this "GamerGate" shit spawned from myself, initially.
redwolflim
Neo Member
A lot of ppl received harassment in this drama, and we don't wish that continue, especially TFYC.
TFYC had released a peace treaty regarding Zoe Quinn issue (http://www.thefineyoungcapitalists.com/PeaceTreaty), and in this statement, there is some important part:
1) "Regarding our grievances with Zoe Quinn, an associate of hers, posted my Facebook information. Zoe did not add any information to the post, nor did she post my phone number or email. The subsequent death threat I received via email was not orchestrated by Zoe. Nor was the DDOSing of our website or the banning of us from Twitter. She was simply the most famous voice in a choir of people that did not understand the project. "
2) "The fallout from the posting of my info costed me around $10,000 dollars, as a business partner walked of the production because of the negative publicity and a sponsor refused to come on board with production being deemed transphobic. I have paid this money and it has not affected my standard of living. The fallout she is receiving, from what she personally described to me, is. "
This is not what we wish for from the Zoe's side as well
TFYC had released a peace treaty regarding Zoe Quinn issue (http://www.thefineyoungcapitalists.com/PeaceTreaty), and in this statement, there is some important part:
1) "Regarding our grievances with Zoe Quinn, an associate of hers, posted my Facebook information. Zoe did not add any information to the post, nor did she post my phone number or email. The subsequent death threat I received via email was not orchestrated by Zoe. Nor was the DDOSing of our website or the banning of us from Twitter. She was simply the most famous voice in a choir of people that did not understand the project. "
2) "The fallout from the posting of my info costed me around $10,000 dollars, as a business partner walked of the production because of the negative publicity and a sponsor refused to come on board with production being deemed transphobic. I have paid this money and it has not affected my standard of living. The fallout she is receiving, from what she personally described to me, is. "
This is not what we wish for from the Zoe's side as well
blitzcloud
Banned
Well, the follow-up tweet is what makes it hilarious. She finds amusing that it's down thanks to her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiWADnV8pmw
I like how over the top posts in certain circumstances are hilarious.
Yet trolling has become the equivalent of terrorism in certain parts
There could... ya know... be minorities on 4chan too.
hooijdonk17
Member
If a politician bribed the press about what they wrote, should we leave the politician alone and grill the press only? Why should Zoe be left alone, is what she did morally OK? You do realize that offering a bribe is as much an offense as taking one?
EDIT: It's obviously NOT just about games journalism, it's also about game developers. It's about the whole unhealthy developer/journalist relationship, you can't isolate one and just go to town on that alone.
redwolflim
Neo Member
For you information, #Gamergate isnt about harrassing SJW, but asking for transparency in Videogame journalism. The reason why we add #notyourshield is a lot of ppl receive unnecessary harrassments, you can browse the evidences via this:
http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/
To everyone still supporting the #gamergate endeavour:
http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2014/09/why-we-didnt-want-to-talk-about-gamergate.html
That’s who is behind this entire situation: anti-woman trolls who intentionally distort the meaning of the word “ethics” to further their own agenda and mislead their followers. There are some beating the #GamerGate drum who sincerely believe that it’s not related to misogyny or the persistent attacks on Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn, that it’s simply about keeping the games press accountable. It’s impossible to extricate that hashtag from its roots, though, which grew out of unconscionable smears and threats against two prominent women in gaming merely because they are prominent women in gaming. All the conspiracies and trumped-up claims of “evidence” of collusion among developers, press agents and the press spread by the #GamerGate founders are lies and distortions aimed at driving Quinn, Sarkeesian and other women out of videogames. Whether it’s hate, fear or simply the grotesque joy horrible people find in maliciously denigrating others, this entire #GamerGate nonsense is built on silencing women and shutting them out of games.
That’s the scandal here. Not that some journalists are friendly with some game designers, or that review copies of games are often sent early to critics (an entrenched practice that occurs across the entire spectrum of tech and entertainment journalism, and which is crucial to informing readers in a timely fashion). It’s that a vocal minority of videogame fans who tend to congregate at sites like 4chan and Reddit, who blanket twitter and comment sections with hate and anger, and who adopt the exclusionary identity of “gamer” have united to intimidate and silence videogame fans, developers and writers who aren’t like them or don’t think like them. And the leaders of that movement, the ones who stir up the most resentment and convince their followers that it’s not about hate but ethics, the YouTube “personalities” and condescending Breitbart hacks and, uh, Firefly’s Adam Baldwin, are all well-established opponents of equality and social justice. Some are trolls, some are disingenuous, politically motivated bullies, and none of them are worth the attention.
If you identify as a “gamer”, some of this probably sounds super condescending and off-putting. I’m sorry. No offense! It’s great if games are the thing that help you with sadness, loneliness and depression (that’s part of what Quinn’s game is about) or if they’re just a thing that helps you kill time. And games are a great way to make friends and create a social circle. The big problem with the concept of the “gamer” (beyond its meaninglessness—there are far more people who play games than who identify as “gamers”
http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2014/09/why-we-didnt-want-to-talk-about-gamergate.html