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[andymcc]

So you will say that is true for all hobby enthusiasts? Or just for gamers?

I made the differentiation of games as a hobby/culture versus other comparable hobbies earlier.

 

[plutoknight]

No, it's not. Because we still have 'gamers' like Zoe Quinn and Rhianna Pratchett and Leigh Alexander who want to play games and participate in the community.
.

Yes, we do, but if the subset of gamers that create this violence towards females continues to do so, we'll lose them and then the stereotype will have, more or less, become truth.

I'm not disagreeing that there are people on both sides of this debate that need to wisen up. The problem is, those people don't represent their respective communities, and we want them to so we can easily target them.

I, personally, don't want that. I just want to stop a negative stereotype from damaging my identity to the point of obscurity. I don't want to be embarrassed to be a gamer.

Wait what? Where did that happen?

If this cycle continues, it WILL happen (is probably what I should've said in that original post, as well)

 

[Lime]

One cannot do both? This is a false binary choice, in which you think gamers who are defending that specific title are also not helping, defending or supporting people targeted for harassment. You're pushing the identity politics platform and it isn't helping.

Of course it is possible to do both, but one is productive and enhances the conversation, while another is stating an intuitively obvious fact that works to neglect the problem of people harassing and bullying people. This and other flaws of the "I am not a bigot" or "not all gamers" argument have already been stated several times in this thread across the several pages.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I really feel like this is my "I'm too old for this shit" moment. It's just to the point where I just honestly want the conversation to go away. And I don't mean in the sense of "let's stop talking about issues that women/minorities/other underrepresented groups face" in as much as I'm just stupefied that we've reached this current level of controversy. Things have come to a boiling point and I just don't get it. And I don't know how much more interest I can muster in carrying on as though this controversy is deserving of a reasonable conversation.

I'm getting too old for this shit.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

i'm 30 years old. i've been playing video games all of my life. i have a pretty extensive collection of Japanese video games from the Famicom upwards. While I do enjoy the hobby quite a bit, and I probably have a collection that easily shames many self-identified "gamers", I would never describe myself as one. I like to think of myself as having varied and robust interests in other things. To me, and many others I would imagine, the "gamer" connotation implies an interest in gaming above all else. this means immersion in the "culture", the reduced and/or sacrificed time that eats into things like sociability, or the preference of gaming over all other visual mediums (though I'm not sure how I feel as games as art right now considering the childish reactions displayed by "gamers" when their hobby of choice is shown the tiniest of criticism that all other expressive mediums have endured for quite some time). the highs of gaming simply never reach the highs of good music, literature, art or film. even when I 1CC classic action Japanese action games (my preferred type of game) i don't typically feel i gleaned a new insight or perspective afforded by the aforementioned mediums. it's a different type of hobby that, while important to me, isn't something that i'd use to define me as a person.

So, do you identify yourself as what hobby you have interest in above all others? Also, are you saying that gaming is the only hobby that eats into sociability or that a gamer cannot be social? It seems to me that you're just a self-deprecating gamer.

 

[staticneuron]

I normally like boogie, but I feel like I learned something about him with this video that I didn't know before. I felt like this video/argument was supremely lazy.

Whether or not you agree with any given point swirling around the twitters and blogs and polygons and kotakus these days, I don't think anyone is actually arguing that "all gamers are bigots". I can't think of anyone who's making this claim, and this is the premise of boogie's video -- that evil jerks who want to ruin games are saying all gamers are bigots. No one is saying that.

This isn't an intellectual video.

If he wants to think about who he's talking to and who he's aligning himself with when he makes such an argument as this, he should look at the comments as they pour in. I haven't studied them closely, but I'm psychic: I bet they're nearly uniformly ignorant and/or revolting.

There were many articles that came out around the same day that painted broad strokes about "gamers" and alot of comments on twitter and tumbler from devs and jurno's were quite negative about gamers.

The creepy and VERY noticeable thing about all of them is that they weren't saying something similar.... they were saying the exact same thing. The term "gamer" is over. They felt that gamers became synonymous with a whole bunch of negative aspects of the community and that somehow other gamers, who may not fit the negative descriptions, "allowed" this so they are responsible as well.

I am not one who visits these news sites often but once it was pointed out to me, it was pretty interesting the amount of articles, the content of them and the sheer fact that they seem to be in response to gamergate which they are pointing out these Jurno's might have very little integrity.... so their response was to release articles decrying the gamer community all around the same time? This is all crazy.

 

[plagiarize]

Like I said in my other post, we need to target the problematic people on "both sides" of this. I don't quite side with one or the other wholeheartedly, but I definitely don't appreciate being lumped as a misogynist (because yes I am a gamer and frequent 4chan) simply because the acts of other people.

The same reason the "opposing feminists" get mad at "gamers" is the same reason "gamers" get mad at "feminists". We both have kids and even immature adults who either haven't fully developed, have mental issues, or even just are misguided. But acting like one group is above the other is bullshit and you should know that.

Going after the bigots is going to do more to quiet people who think all gamers are bigots than telling them we aren't all bigots ever will. That's the thing. One action does address both the root cause and the reaction to it. The other only addresses one, and it doesn't even address it as well.

So yes, I think dividing your time between both actions is a poor use of your time. Because focusing on one would solve both problems.

 

[Dr_LucienSanchez]

I really feel like this is my "I'm too old for this shit" moment. It's just to the point where I just honestly want the conversation to go away. And I don't mean in the sense of "let's stop talking about issues that women/minorities/other underrepresented groups face" in as much as I'm just stupefied that we've reached this current level of controversy. Things have come to a boiling point and I just don't get it. And I don't know how much more interest I can muster in carrying on as though this controversy is deserving of a reasonable conversation.

I'm getting too old for this shit.

Yep, feel exactly the same way. It's just disheartening for me to click through these threads.

The conversation needs to happen, but the way it's played out is just immensely frustrating.

 

[Corpekata]

There were many articles that came out around the same day that painted broad strokes about "gamers" and alot of comments on twitter and tumbler from devs and jurno's were quite negative about gamers.

The creepy and VERY noticeable thing about all of them is that they weren't saying something similar.... they were saying the exact same thing. The term "gamer" is over. They felt that gamers became synonymous with a whole bunch of negative aspects of the community and that somehow other gamers, who may not fit the negative descriptions, "allowed" this so they are responsible as well.

I am not one who visits these news sites often but once it was pointed out to me, it was pretty interesting the amount of articles, the content of them and the sheer fact that they seem to be in response to gamergate which they are pointing out these Jurno's might have very little integrity.... so their response was to release articles decrying the gamer community all around the same time? This is all crazy.

Are you aware one of your examples is from May 2013?

 

[SparkPeople]

I don't understand why people like Anita Sarkeesan or whatever feel its important to present their findings to the consumers of video-games.

Her videos are feminist critiques of videogames, aimed towards feminists. It communicates little to gamers beyond "what you enjoy is wrong in my eyes, and you should feel bad about it." No one wants to be told their hobby is harmful to other people, and with such an abstract link between the role of women in videogames, and their roles in real-life it seems like a baseless attack to most gamers.

Wouldn't it make more sense to approach the industry leaders and say "Hey, this is something that games tend to do, and it's troubling because it takes down the status of women. Here are some stats showing the potential audience you could profit from."

The 'public' conversation isn't going to change the industry, because it doesn't affect their profits. Drawing attention to Ubisoft's laziness for Assassin's Creed: Unity is appropriate, but lambasting GTA V after it sold millions of copies isn't going to matter. AAA games are based off the average person buying, not 'gamers' (whatever that means).

Everything I've seen from feminist critique of games is a call to action, with very little substance behind it. Twitter and tumblr posts don't mean shit in the real world except to those who participate within those communities. At least TFYC campaign is doing something beyond 'creating a dialogue'.

This guise of 'dialogue creation' only works up to a certain point, which is to reach a consensus on where the movement is going, or the next course of action, but it seems that when it comes to the gaming and feminist communities, both operate primarily online. Their dialogue creation is public, and loudmouths from either side constantly intervene with extremist opinions while the rest of us wait patiently for Persona 4.

Also, this process of dialogue creation is marred by the fact that feminism doesn't really have a common consensus. From Second Wave to Third Wave to Radfem, it's frustrating for feminists to have their beliefs represented by a radical wing, or misrepresented by a different branch of it. Similarly, it's frustrating to be told consistently that what you thought feminism was is not true anymore. One day you're on the right side with 'feminists', the next day you're the next Hitler according to a different set of 'feminists.'

The movement needs to pin down it's beliefs and methadologies before expressing it to the public. This half-assed first draft of ideology makes it impossible to keep up with.

 

[FF Seraphim]

I made the differentiation of games as a hobby/culture versus other comparable hobbies earlier.

Ah I missed that post, what number is it so I can read it? Cannot make an honest statement in agreement or disagreement on your terms without knowing them.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

If you seriously are still questioning why you should do something about the assholes instead of trying to defend your hobby: Actions speak louder than words. Do something to prove that video games culture isn't bigoted. Prove that you don't take no shit when assholes yell slurs at women, non-Whites, LBGTQ, etc. Support the voices financially who are experienced in how video games culture can be more diverse and inclusive. Defend and speak up for the ambition of diversifying the video game landscape and welcome change.

There is SO MUCH you and everyone else (and Boogie) can do to prove that video games aren't exclusionary instead of telling people who are discriminated against that "I am not a bigot!".

You can do both you know. You can both support inclusiveness and diversity in video games and also point out when some people on that side of the conversation go over the top and start generalizing a whole group of people in an attempt to make their point. I support everyone being able to be more involved in video games, but that doesn't mean I have to sit by and let bad behavior go just because I agree with that person's viewpoints.

It's not an either or situation, and people I agree with can also be assholes about how they voice their opinion.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

Going after the bigots is going to do more to quiet people who think all gamers are bigots than telling them we aren't all bigots ever will. That's the thing. One action does address both the root cause and the reaction to it. The other only addresses one, and it doesn't even address it as well.

So yes, I think dividing your time between both actions is a poor use of your time. Because focusing on one would solve both problems.

You realise that there's bigots on both sides, right?

 

[CombustibleNate]

I, personally, don't want that. I just want to stop a negative stereotype from damaging my identity to the point of obscurity. I don't want to be embarrassed to be a gamer.

Hasn't that been a struggle for gamers for a while? Usually true nerd culture looked down upon? I was harassed as a kid for being a gamer and I've seen it come up numerous times throughout my life. People scoff at you when you bring them up. People act like you are a good for nothing. People talk about how we are freaks (heard this the other day on the elevator with two older men.)

I remember this one dude, who while we were in a public restaurant, tried to shush me down for talking about a game because he was worried "what the other people at the table would think." I think it's kind of unavoidable and I will always say I am a gamer even when this whole fiasco settles. I am not one of those people attacking either group.

 

[plagiarize]

I don't understand why people like Anita Sarkeesan or whatever feel its important to present their findings to the consumers of video-games.

Her videos are feminist critiques of videogames, aimed towards feminists. It communicates little to gamers beyond "what you enjoy is wrong in my eyes, and you should feel bad about it." No one wants to be told their hobby is harmful to other people, and with such an abstract link between the role of women in videogames, and their roles in real-life it seems like a baseless attack to most gamers.

Wouldn't it make more sense to approach the industry leaders and say "Hey, this is something that games tend to do, and it's troubling because it takes down the status of women. Here are some stats showing the potential audience you could profit from."

The 'public' conversation isn't going to change the industry, because it doesn't affect their profits. Drawing attention to Ubisoft's laziness for Assassin's Creed: Unity is appropriate, but lambasting GTA V after it sold millions of copies isn't going to matter. AAA games are based off the average person buying, not 'gamers' (whatever that means).

Everything I've seen from feminist critique of games is a call to action, with very little substance behind it. Twitter and tumblr posts don't mean shit in the real world except to those who participate within those communities. At least TFYC campaign is doing something beyond 'creating a dialogue'.

This guise of 'dialogue creation' only works up to a certain point, which is to reach a consensus on where the movement is going, or the next course of action, but it seems that when it comes to the gaming and feminist communities, both operate primarily online. Their dialogue creation is public, and loudmouths from either side constantly intervene with extremist opinions while the rest of us wait patiently for Persona 4.

Also, this process of dialogue creation is marred by the fact that feminism doesn't really have a common consensus. From Second Wave to Third Wave to Radfem, it's frustrating for feminists to have their beliefs represented by a radical wing, or misrepresented by a different branch of it. Similarly, it's frustrating to be told consistently that what you thought feminism was is not true anymore. One day you're on the right side with 'feminists', the next day you're the next Hitler according to a different set of 'feminists.'

The movement needs to pin down it's beliefs and methadologies before expressing it to the public. This half-assed first draft of ideology makes it impossible to keep up with.

No one *wants* to hear that their hobby is harmful, but if aspects of it are, we should all want to do something about that. And not that I think Anita is going to change a significant number of game consumer's minds with her videos, but nothing would convince people to stop making sexist games faster than bad sales for sexist games.

So targeting the game consumers makes a *lot* of sense.

 

[Oersted]

If this cycle continues, it WILL happen (is probably what I should've said in that original post, as well)

A strawman based on an assumption? Just why?

You realise that there's bigots on both sides, right?

Which fucking sides are you talking about?

 

[Gaogaogao]

"gamers"

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=886871

 

[CambriaRising]

Not understanding the sentiment that we, normal people with no more power than anyone else who feel like we are caught in the onslaught, should be "going after" the assholes. We can't do anything but argue with them on twitter which is a waste of time. We certainly can't make them stop doing what they are doing, If anyone could they would have already. (Realisticly only twitter admins can on that front, and let's be real here, they don't care.)

 

[lorebringer]

I really feel like this is my "I'm too old for this shit" moment. It's just to the point where I just honestly want the conversation to go away. And I don't mean in the sense of "let's stop talking about issues that women/minorities/other underrepresented groups face" in as much as I'm just stupefied that we've reached this current level of controversy. Things have come to a boiling point and I just don't get it. And I don't know how much more interest I can muster in carrying on as though this controversy is deserving of a reasonable conversation.

I'm getting too old for this shit.

Get out the banhammer and lay waste, you know you want to...

Spoiler

don't ban me

 

[andymcc]

So, do you identify yourself as what hobby you have interest in above all others? Also, are you saying that gaming is the only hobby that eats into sociability or that a gamer cannot be social? It seems to me that you're just a self-deprecating gamer.

No, because that would be stupid. I love music and extensively collect vinyl, would I describe myself as an audiophile? No, but even if I did, you don't see vocal fanbases of music get angry about the direction of music criticism with visible pushback. Movie-goers, film-buffs, cinephiles are passionate without being as toxic, and, again, they believe in much scrutinization of the medium. I read a ton but... wouldn't identify as a bookworm but, again, the rhetoric of the vocal, defensive fandom isn't close.

You realise that there's bigots on both sides, right?

yes a bigot against fans of video games is clearly the same as a misogynist.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

I really feel like this is my "I'm too old for this shit" moment. It's just to the point where I just honestly want the conversation to go away. And I don't mean in the sense of "let's stop talking about issues that women/minorities/other underrepresented groups face" in as much as I'm just stupefied that we've reached this current level of controversy. Things have come to a boiling point and I just don't get it. And I don't know how much more interest I can muster in carrying on as though this controversy is deserving of a reasonable conversation.

I'm getting too old for this shit.

I'm not necessarily too old for this shit just not interested enough on the topic when it comes to gamers. I feel for people being discriminated by some gamers, I experienced that once in a game and it wasn't pleasant, but since I've moved away from multiplayer and just play games and follow news about games I've discovered I don't care about these issues when it comes to gaming. I like to play games the shit some self identified gamers say or do doesn't concern me because it doesn't apply to me.

 

[plutoknight]

I really feel like this is my "I'm too old for this shit" moment. It's just to the point where I just honestly want the conversation to go away. And I don't mean in the sense of "let's stop talking about issues that women/minorities/other underrepresented groups face" in as much as I'm just stupefied that we've reached this current level of controversy. Things have come to a boiling point and I just don't get it. And I don't know how much more interest I can muster in carrying on as though this controversy is deserving of a reasonable conversation.

I'm getting too old for this shit.

I usually stay out of these debates, but my inner-student came out because this issue of 'gamers being labeled as assholes' has existed for years, and isn't limited to this Quinn/Alexander/etc. debacle.

If anything, I think this could be a renaissance, a rebirth of the term gamer, to redefine gamer to be a term that isn't connected to misogyny or trolls or horrible people, but gamer as a term that defines myriad peoples from myriad walks of life, all uniting together in a hobby that we love. But we have to stop this cycle of violence, we have to stop ostracizing people because they don't align with our worldviews; from 'cellphone gamers' to 'female gamers' and everything inbetween. We're all gamers, and all we want is to save our hobby from any further defamation and damage because of the actions of a subset of us.

 

[nickthebiggeek]

Anyone who post their opinion online and gets paid for views can not be taken seriously.

 

[NotLiquid]

I really feel like this is my "I'm too old for this shit" moment. It's just to the point where I just honestly want the conversation to go away. And I don't mean in the sense of "let's stop talking about issues that women/minorities/other underrepresented groups face" in as much as I'm just stupefied that we've reached this current level of controversy. Things have come to a boiling point and I just don't get it. And I don't know how much more interest I can muster in carrying on as though this controversy is deserving of a reasonable conversation.

I'm getting too old for this shit.

It's not just you Steve. At this point it feels like a zero-sum game that never actually seems to turn any heads and only exhausts itself once people just lose interest in arguing about it.

There's a good chance that a month from now, this will have changed nothing.

 

[APF]

I don't understand why people like Anita Sarkeesan or whatever feel its important to present their findings to the consumers of video-games.

She's doing it because a lot of people backed her kickstarter campaign to do it, and she's fulfilling her promise to her backers.


EDIT: I'm also in the same boat as Steve Youngblood. I've been trying real hard to disentangle my emotional reaction from my engagement with the issues and it's real difficult

 

[Jobbs]

There were many articles that came out around the same day that painted broad strokes about "gamers" and alot of comments on twitter and tumbler from devs and jurno's were quite negative about gamers.

The creepy and VERY noticeable thing about all of them is that they weren't saying something similar.... they were saying the exact same thing. The term "gamer" is over. They felt that gamers became synonymous with a whole bunch of negative aspects of the community and that somehow other gamers, who may not fit the negative descriptions, "allowed" this so they are responsible as well.

I am not one who visits these news sites often but once it was pointed out to me, it was pretty interesting the amount of articles, the content of them and the sheer fact that they seem to be in response to gamergate which they are pointing out these Jurno's might have very little integrity.... so their response was to release articles decrying the gamer community all around the same time? This is all crazy.

the premise of boogie's video is that if you play games, THOSE people are saying you're a bigot, when that's not substantively what even those news articles you don't like are saying. We're still just arguing over a definition here, because no one is claiming that everyone who happens to play a video game is a bigot. It's the premise of his video and it's something that no one says.

for what it's worth, boogie seems willing to recognize that he didn't quite get it right, and I respect that. I've fallen on my face plenty of times.

I'm getting too old for this shit.

Pretty much this.. As I've been saying. I barely have the energy to get angry over stuff that IS substantive or real.

 

[DoktorEvil]

I really feel like this is my "I'm too old for this shit" moment. It's just to the point where I just honestly want the conversation to go away. And I don't mean in the sense of "let's stop talking about issues that women/minorities/other underrepresented groups face" in as much as I'm just stupefied that we've reached this current level of controversy. Things have come to a boiling point and I just don't get it. And I don't know how much more interest I can muster in carrying on as though this controversy is deserving of a reasonable conversation.

I'm getting too old for this shit.

I'm glad I wasn't the only person, and a mod at that, was thinking about this.

I usually stay out of these debates, but my inner-student came out because this issue of 'gamers being labeled as assholes' has existed for years, and isn't limited to this Quinn/Alexander/etc. debacle.

If anything, I think this could be a renaissance, a rebirth of the term gamer, to redefine gamer to be a term that isn't connected to misogyny or trolls or horrible people, but gamer as a term that defines myriad peoples from myriad walks of life, all uniting together in a hobby that we love. But we have to stop this cycle of violence, we have to stop ostracizing people because they don't align with our worldviews; from 'cellphone gamers' to 'female gamers' and everything inbetween. We're all gamers, and all we want is to save our hobby from any further defamation and damage because of the actions of a subset of us.

Realistically, the term will always exist, because someone, somewhere, somehow will want to qualify tiers of gaming and the hardcore/casual shit delves into that discussion.

 

[plagiarize]

You realise that there's bigots on both sides, right?

Which other side are we talking about this time? I genuinely lose track.

I am a gamer, talking to gamers in a gaming community. I am suggesting that we as gamers would do more for our reputation by actively trying to stop bigotry, than we will do for it by telling people who have let the hateful minority sully our name, that we aren't all bigots.

I don't see how what you're saying contradicts or invalidates anything I have said. As gamers what can *we* do about the criticism we are receiving and about the bigotry that seems to be a bigger part of our community than it is most other online entertainment communities.

 

[Sneds]

if gaming is as important to a person as a deeply held moral conviction or religious belief, i think that has the potential to be problematic, yes.

I agree and I think it explains a lot of the defensiveness we see when anyone suggests that games might be racist, sexist or homophobic.

 

[SenorArdilla]

Anyone who post their opinion online and gets paid for views can not be taken seriously.

That's a whole bunch of online critics you just invalidated there.

 

[Lime]

Not understanding the sentiment that we, normal people with no more power than anyone else who feel like we are caught in the onslaught, should be "going after" the assholes. We can't do anything but argue with them on twitter which is a waste of time. We certainly can't make them stop doing what they are doing, If anyone could they would have already. (Realisticly only twitter admins can on that front, and let's be real here, they don't care.)

http://www.mattiebrice.com/how-do-i-help/

http://leighalexander.net/but-what-can-be-done-dos-and-donts-to-combat-online-sexism/

And if you're a guy: https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0

 

[aeolist]

It's not just you Steve. At this point it feels like a zero-sum game that never actually seems to turn any heads and only exhausts itself once people just lose interest in arguing about it.

There's a good chance that a month from now, this will have changed nothing.

plenty has changed. several female writers and devs are getting out of the industry.

so good for #gamergate, i guess

 

[spwolf]

I really feel like this is my "I'm too old for this shit" moment. It's just to the point where I just honestly want the conversation to go away. And I don't mean in the sense of "let's stop talking about issues that women/minorities/other underrepresented groups face" in as much as I'm just stupefied that we've reached this current level of controversy. Things have come to a boiling point and I just don't get it. And I don't know how much more interest I can muster in carrying on as though this controversy is deserving of a reasonable conversation.

I'm getting too old for this shit.

absolutely agreed...

 

[CambriaRising]

I really feel like this is my "I'm too old for this shit" moment. It's just to the point where I just honestly want the conversation to go away. And I don't mean in the sense of "let's stop talking about issues that women/minorities/other underrepresented groups face" in as much as I'm just stupefied that we've reached this current level of controversy. Things have come to a boiling point and I just don't get it. And I don't know how much more interest I can muster in carrying on as though this controversy is deserving of a reasonable conversation.

I'm getting too old for this shit.

It's just been a relentless stream of one thing after another for going on 3 weeks now. It's tiring. I don't even want to see my twitter feed anymore.

 

[Waylon Drums]

Oh lord I wish most people would did this, however that is easier said than done because as you can see a lot of people are overly sensitive to the issue or easily manipulated by their peers.
Calm down, and game on.

Oh, don't get me wrong, it's DEFINITELY easier said than done and I've done my own fair share of useless raging but it just seems like such a profound waste of energy to get upset about and fight back against baseless claims of bigotry.

 

[bootski]

Damn this thread moves quickly!

I think we actually agree with each other.
Again, this is the problem with arguments mediated by short-form messages. It's just impossible to convey context accurately.

I wasn't saying that every gamer needs to actively hunt down the bigots and confront them. I was just saying that when we encounter bigotry we ought to stand up against it.
If you and the gamers you know aren't bigoted then that's great.
I'm certainly not saying that gamers should be constantly apologising for being gamers because of bigots that they don't even know.

That's why I've been posting. I'm not apologising for being a gamer, and I don't feel like gaming is under attack from SJWs.
But I see people here on GAF posting out of context twitter/reddit scapbooks like some Chemtrails conspiracy theorist and calling on me to watch InternetAristocrat's "5 guys" video to get the 'real' story.
I'm seeing bigotry here on GAF and on other sites I visit. So I'm trying to oppose it rather than trying to argue that it's no big deal or (worse) to argue that it's actually me that should feel victimised by anti-bigot extremists, or that it's some sort of left-wing media conspiracy.

I think that what scares women away from gaming is not just that there might be a few misogynists that insult or threaten them. What scares women away is that they thing that the majority of gamers will not support her if she complains about the insults and threats (either by taking the bigot's side, ignoring her, or saying it's no big deal).

i hear ya bro. keep on doing your thing.
i just hope the term gamer doesn't go away. i even got the swag!!

SWAG

lol i know the shirt is corny, but i thought it was cool because OG is usually a gangster thing, you know? and no, i don't know why there's a shoe there

 

[CombustibleNate]

Going after the bigots is going to do more to quiet people who think all gamers are bigots than telling them we aren't all bigots ever will. That's the thing. One action does address both the root cause and the reaction to it. The other only addresses one, and it doesn't even address it as well.

So yes, I think dividing your time between both actions is a poor use of your time. Because focusing on one would solve both problems.

But there are bigots on both sides. If I understand you correctly, I can only target the bigots that claim to be gamers but not the bigots that claim to be feminist? Do you not see how that's singling out a group rather that focusing on a wider issue? I have noticed that a lot of people think gamers are the bad aspect of this and the other side is free of blame, but that's totally not the case.

Both sides are angry about the hate thrown at each other. And what stinks is that each side has people throwing this hate. By squelching only the idiots in the gamer community, you are allowing an avenue for the other community to continue some of it's heinous actions.

 

[plagiarize]

Not understanding the sentiment that we, normal people with no more power than anyone else who feel like we are caught in the onslaught, should be "going after" the assholes. We can't do anything but argue with them on twitter which is a waste of time. We certainly can't make them stop doing what they are doing, If anyone could they would have already. (Realisticly only twitter admins can on that front, and let's be real here, they don't care.)

How is it that you don't see the same kind of open racism you used to? It at least partly because society (and the people within it) started frowning on it. The climate that used to exist where in someone could say something racist without fear of reprisal or people thinking badly of them, or whatever, was slowly eroded.

So that's what you can do. Openly criticize anyone you see being bigoted and making us all look bad, and if appropriate report them for breaking the terms of use for the service they are posting on, or the forum rules, or whatever.

 

[Abelian75]

Going after the bigots is going to do more to quiet people who think all gamers are bigots than telling them we aren't all bigots ever will. That's the thing. One action does address both the root cause and the reaction to it. The other only addresses one, and it doesn't even address it as well.

So yes, I think dividing your time between both actions is a poor use of your time. Because focusing on one would solve both problems.

I don't know how one goes about "going after bigots", nor how to go about "targeting the people on both sides" of this. Not in this current environment. There's no possibility of real discussion with all this noise. There are quite clearly things that need to be talked about - eventually - but now? Everyone has their hackles up like a motherfucker and real people's lives are being affected. It's ridiculous.

I have plenty of actual, genuine issues I think deserve to be discussed, but I think at some point we all need to take some responsibility for not knowing when it's time to stop trying to "win". I'm absolutely guilty of it myself.

I realize it's a little ridiculous to essentially shout "Everybody stop caring about things, right now!" But fuck, I really think it's time we all just lay down the goddamn swords. No parting shots, no "lessons learned" (not yet, at least)... let's just play Destiny or some shit. I dunno.

 

[plutoknight]

No one *wants* to hear that their hobby is harmful, but if aspects of it are, we should all want to do something about that. And not that I think Anita is going to change a significant number of game consumer's minds with her videos, but nothing would convince people to stop making sexist games faster than bad sales for sexist games.

So targeting the game consumers makes a *lot* of sense.

Exactly. Anita is trying to create a dialogue for change, and, yeah, her videos can be inclusive sometimes, but if she sparks conversation about it, that's a success in her book, I'm sure. We need more Anita's in gaming, and ones that cover a wider range of opinions on that issue.

 

[marrec]

http://www.mattiebrice.com/how-do-i-help/

http://leighalexander.net/but-what-can-be-done-dos-and-donts-to-combat-online-sexism/

And if you're a guy: https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0

As long as we refuse to accept casual racism or sexism in our community then it'll be suffocated out of the conversation. It'll be a slow process of course... but it's not like we have to do anything extraordinary to achieve these goals.

 

[plutoknight]

http://www.mattiebrice.com/how-do-i-help/

http://leighalexander.net/but-what-can-be-done-dos-and-donts-to-combat-online-sexism/

And if you're a guy: https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0

Your last link doesn't work!

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

No, because that would be stupid. I love music and extensively collect vinyl, would I describe myself as an audiophile? No, but even if I did, you don't see vocal fanbases of music get angry about the direction of music criticism with visible pushback. Movie-goers, film-buffs, cinephiles are passionate without being as toxic, and, again, they believe in much scrutinization of the medium. I read a ton but... wouldn't identify as a bookworm but, again, the rhetoric of the vocal, defensive fandom isn't close.



yes a bigot against fans of video games is clearly the same as a misogynist.

Go read some YouTube comments on music videos. Go read some of the Marvel vs. DC threads. Nolanites vs Micheal Bay fans. Open your eyes and you'll realise that it happens in every media. If you leave media and look at sports, it gets even worse but I bet you wouldn't see it that way when it comes to sports fans.

And, got your last point - not all bigots are equal.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

I think the stance of "nobody is really making an argument against gamers" is kind of weak and indicates that this person doesn't really understand what's going on at all.

What boogie and others are standing up to are simple stereotypes that have gotten completely out of control- even more quickly than the stereotypes themselves have become completely untrue. And now those stereotypes are often being called upon by people that have legitimate causes of their own, and not only is it insulting to those that call themselves gamers but it undermines his/her cause itself.

When you're making a statement it an argument for a cause and you need to address the group that you're expressing a grievance with, using insults and name calling, essentially perpetuating untrue stereotypes, accomplishes nothing because that audience will immediately fail to listen to what you're really saying.

That's what Leigh did in her article, and what plenty of others appear to be doing. I don't see anything wrong with the gamer movement thing so long as it's properly explained and doesn't stoop to the very levels it's complaining about. Boogie could have done a better job of explaining his stance in his video but I would judge the whole movement based off of him alone.

ALSO: I find the 'they aren't talking about all gamers' stance to also be silly. Use that technicality in almost any other hot button topic or situation and you'd look like a bigot. 'Black people are looting in Ferguson!' would draw the fire of a million suns and 'oh I didn't mean all black people just the ones looting' wouldn't cut it. It sounds like what Rush Limbaugh would say. And before someone says I'm comparing racial injustice to the gamer situation- I'm not. That's not how comparisons always work. I'm comparing the ill use of a technicality in one situation to another. Comparing the use, not the situation. Arguing about comparing X situation to Y only serves to derail and deflect.

This is all I'm going to comment on this whole thing because it's becoming increasingly irritating and embarrassing.

 

[Arkage]

Of course it is possible to do both, but one is productive and enhances the conversation, while another is stating an intuitively obvious fact that works to neglect the problem of people harassing and bullying people. This and other flaws of the "I am not a bigot" or "not all gamers" argument have already been stated several times in this thread across the several pages.

And this is again an example of the "my cause is more important than your cause" argument, which I already noted can be trumped with the #firstworldproblems card. I'm not going to enter a debate with you on which is most important because I'm happy to have people defending both things as much as they can as much as possible. Telling them that what they're doing is a waste of time and actually indirectly harming victims is hardly a good way to approach collaboration.

 

[plagiarize]

But there are bigots on both sides. If I understand you correctly, I can only target the bigots that claim to be gamers but not the bigots that claim to be feminist? Do you not see how that's singling out a group rather that focusing on a wider issue? I have noticed that a lot of people think gamers are the bad aspect of this and the other side is free of blame, but that's totally not the case.

Both sides are angry about the hate thrown at each other. And what stinks is that each side has people throwing this hate. By squelching only the idiots in the gamer community, you are allowing an avenue for the other community to continue some of it's heinous actions.

If I was on a feminist forum, having a discussion with feminists, I might advise them on what I think is the best way for them to address the issues they have.

But I'm not. I'm here on a gaming forum, telling gamers how I think we can best show people that we aren't all bigots.

I'm talking to gamers as a gamer. Nor am I assigning blame to any group as a whole. I'm just saying what I think that we as gamers can do about the issues facing gaming.

Is that clear?

 

[Lime]

Yep, feel exactly the same way. It's just disheartening for me to click through these threads.

The conversation needs to happen, but the way it's played out is just immensely frustrating.

The fundamental principle and motivation for this current conversation is severely flawed and people keep on misunderstanding or falling into the tired and trite pitfalls of these topics.

I am not sure if this can be salvaged at all, but I do know that right now people are quitting video games culture for understandable reasons (i.e. they are being harassed and threatened constantly) and I am not even sure if I want to continue down this road. As such, when I see people who are quitting because of all of this shitty behavior against them, along with a failure to understand the situation from "non-bigoted parties", then it makes me sad and hurt. It's like watching a tragic situation that is determined to happen because it is the only outcome and a lot of people end up getting hurt and quitting. Which is happening right now.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

Which other side are we talking about this time? I genuinely lose track.

I am a gamer, talking to gamers in a gaming community. I am suggesting that we as gamers would do more for our reputation by actively trying to stop bigotry, than we will do for it by telling people who have let the hateful minority sully our name, that we aren't all bigots.

I don't see how what you're saying contradicts or invalidates anything I have said. As gamers what can *we* do about the criticism we are receiving and about the bigotry that seems to be a bigger part of our community than it is most other online entertainment communities.

Except you'll be fixing the problem on side only. If some people are willing to judge a whole segment by their hobby, then they have issues of their own.

 

[eyeless]

I don't get the accusations of "slut shaming". Spoiler, Zoe Quinn, if the statements about cheating on her boyfriend are true, is a piece of shit. Sexual freedom and liberation doesn't mean getting in a relationship with another person who understands it to be monogamous and proceeding to sleep with other people. And I would use equal verbiage to describe a man who does the same. If you're in a relationship that you haven't agreed to be open or poly-amorous, then sleeping with other people makes you a piece of shit, not "liberated" or "enlightened".

why is her being a "piece of shit" relevant

what does judging the moral character of a developer based on their private life have to do with video game journalism

i just want to play veido hams.keep your drama out of my gams.keep your politics outta my space invaders. pac-man is supposed to be about fun

So let's turn that around. Instead of African-Americans saying negative stereotypes and portrayals in media are false and offensive, they should do something about those perpetuating the stereotype instead of voicing their opinion and concern that it's false and offensive?

It's not my job to moderate other people's comments or to take a hurt feelings report. If someone starts yelling stupid shit online I mute them and move on. Instead of giving money to a con artist like Anita I would just rather marginalize and not engage the toxic elements.

anita sarkeesian you say

can you explain to mean in what way she is a con artist

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

As long as we refuse to accept casual racism or sexism in our community then it'll be suffocated out of the conversation. It'll be a slow process of course... but it's not like we have to do anything extraordinary to achieve these goals.

Well said. We have to reject all of it. Not pick and choose what's more important than the other, because that line of reasoning won't get us anywhere.