#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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What? The "gaming press" is not a unified campaign. #GamerGate is. The "gaming press" is not a movement. #GamerGate is. The "gaming press" is a bunch of different outlets that all have different businesses, mandates, goals, personalities, perspectives, and so forth. Your analogy doesn't really work.

GamerGate may be many things, but a "unified campaign" it's not. Mainly due to many people hijacking the tag in order to push their own agenda, lack of co-ordination or structure and cohesive principles. Plus it's easy for many people to be sucked into internet-mob hive-mind tactics. As you and many others said already, they don't even have a clear endgame in sight. Does that sound like a unified campaign?

That's much better than her previous clickbait piece.

Yeah, but then again it's TIME she's writing for this time. I don't think they would stand for incendiary, clickbait or sensationalist articles.
 
But people don't make games in a vacuum and we don't critique games solely on whether the final product meets the standards of their creators. Anyone who makes a game and says "this isn't intended to be a political statement" is essentially making a political statement anyway. That's the definition of hegemony: a cultural or political norm that is seen as the status quo, or "the way things have always been." It's a political stance by default, essentially: by saying politics aren't involved, you're saying "I'm okay with whatever is going on now."

This is a way better and more complete version of what I was trying to say earlier. Well done.
 
It's worth nothing that harassment online has been happening since online existed, just as harassment and threats have existed for as long as people have been in contact with each other. It's conducted for a variety of stupid reasons by a variety of stupid people, gamers or not.

In summary, a large number of humans are thoroughly wretched people.

When you understand that, you can see that really there's nothing new here other than two aspects of social media, making harassment easier and generating hysteria. There's nothing unique to gaming here other than the context of these examples.
 
I'm not quite sure why people are calling for the gaming press to all of a sudden start acting like real journalists.

This is gaming we are taking about, it's a hobby for the majority of us.

Gaming press are hobby press.

They aren't reporting on life or death events, they are reporting on a large entertainment industry.

Their peers are music press, film press and tech press not The New York Times.

Well, even if it's a hobby I do think there should be standards. I mean, and I'm not saying this happens, but a reviewer should not be exchanging favors for press coverage/reviews. A publisher should not be paying the people that are going to review their content (I don't mean ads, I'm saying directly handling an individual cash. The ad thing is a bit more complex and is another discussion all together).

There are certain ethics that I think even the press side of things can agree should exist. I dunno. Just because this is an enthusiast field, doesn't mean it shouldn't have them. Plus I think we are short changing the games industry here. It's a massive industry that has a huge impact on the world economy. And it's also the livelihood for many people. Surely that deserves ethics and regulation?

It's worth nothing that harassment online has been happening since online existed, just as harassment and threats have existed for as long as people have been in contact with each other. It's conducted for a variety of stupid reasons by a variety of stupid people, gamers or not.

In summary, a large number of humans are thoroughly wretched people.

When you understand that, you can see that really there's nothing new here other than two aspects of social media, making harassment easier and generating hysteria.

I agree that the element has always existed, and I don't think it can be changed or fixed. But I would say, the issue is that it's become more targeted. There is a specific group of people that don't want their hobby to be criticized, so they are using these tactics (that you state has been around a long time), to go after anyone that has an opinion criticism.
 
Not sure if it's been posted before, but a rather insightful video by a political activist and actor Nicholas Goroff talking about recent controversies and the inherent problems with the evangelizing of moral authority coming from certain quarters: -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_oIIeWoeTE

Be aware, it's about 25 minutes long, but is pretty articulate and considered and personally ties in nicely with my own thoughts about the way in which certain people are using censorship and 'no comments' as a means to shutter discussion.

Watching it now. Good arguments interspersed with obnoxious (and occasionally misogynistic) personal attacks on Sarkeesian and Quinn.
 
But I remember that people pretty much slammed the door for you guys to cover the florence story. I remember hundreds of comments in some kotaku page at the time.

Probably that article didn´t get a lot of viewers in the end?
Well, that wasn't just a video game journalism story -- it was an interesting scandal that had a lot of angles and implications. I think in retrospect Stephen realized that we should have covered that, which is why he did (and he covered it quite well).
 
I'm not quite sure why people are calling for the gaming press to all of a sudden start acting like real journalists.

This is gaming we are taking about, it's a hobby for the majority of us.

Gaming press are hobby press.

They aren't reporting on life or death events, they are reporting on a large entertainment industry.

Their peers are music press, film press and tech press not The New York Times.
Actually, Kotaku's reviews are printed monthly in The New York Times, so I think it's pretty fair to consider them our peers.
 
They aren't reporting on life or death events, they are reporting on a large entertainment industry.
No, but most news isn't about life or death events. The news is about reporting events that are relevant to the people who are interested in that news source. News is frequently the situation of the economy, the voting for the next president, the latest campaign contribution scandal, or a group of people banding together against the police for profiling minorities.

And hey, there's a lot of those politics inside the videogame industry too! We know that crunch in development is atrocious, that workers are frequently underpaid and overworked, that promises for certain functionality is frequently veiled in half-truths and sometimes open denial. Reporters in the videogame industry need to make these topics important to everyone, because they affect a lot of people in the videogame industry. These are people's lives we are talking about, and even though it's easy to abstract away from them because they aren't directly connected to you, I can guarantee you when 200 employees are let go from a company, that's really big news to the people who no longer have a job. Especially if the report is coming from a larger and even more faceless part of the company (at least, to the employees)!
 
Thanks for the reply. I guess my problem with it, is that so much of the Quinn stuff was very malicious and entrenched in the extremist side of things pushing back against the press/activist side of things criticizing their hobby. I don't even have an opinion on Quinn (outside of not liking her game). But IMO this was clearly visible from the start.

And so, it's hard for me to accept that, someone looked at this and said: well, there is no evidence of corruption, but the idea of this kind of corruption is enough to set me off to start launching an investigation into the greater games media and corruption. It is to be quite honest..kind of hard to believe. I know a lot of people that joined GamerGate, that did so AFTER the reaction piece by Alexander. Or they joined it after the campaign was defined as being a push to hold the media accountable for corruption. Because so many have had criticisms of the media and corruption for years now, many joined the campaign because it's something they've felt was over due.

I'm just seeing a disconnect between the Quinn thing and how this campaign started. At least for me, I really have a hard time believing that the original people chiming about corruption when there was no proof, were just general gamers who were against corruption. I mean, why would you scream and yell about corruption being present, when there is no proof of such? And the fact that this was all surrounded by the attacks of Quinn (who has been an activist, and who extremists have been butting heads with for a long time now).

That said, one aspect I left out of the summary (that I didn't do on purpose, but now that I'm realizing I did), was that a lot of people felt the media/ industry did a poor job covering the incident. And attributed this to their belief it's corrupt. And so I don't deny that there are people out there at the beginning of this incident that generally had a perception that this was corruption being covered up. But I really do think those that fueled it (who pushed for it), were the extremists. That's how I saw it unfold.

But maybe people disagree with that. Anyways, I've added an edit to my post to let me people know that there is a bias/slant. That I view the origins of this a specific way.

I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to discredit what you're saying nor how you say it. I can see the disconnect, and I can understand how one might spur the other being farfetched. I'd agree the masses are probably band-wagoners for the wrong reasons (albeit plenty are bound to have good intentions).

There's a correlation I'd be happy to present (lengthy, mind you) and if you should be interested I'd gladly PM it to you when I can; but I don't think that serves anything for what's being discussed here. Originally, I was just wanting to help you disseminate your information in a way that didn't show bias; but you're aware of that so there's not really a need to discuss this much more :P.

Thanks for the reply and explanations, far from the usual retorts.
 
That said, I am happy that women have escapist media where they are the center of the universe. I don't think it's a problem.

If videogames could reach that sort of equilibrium where women can read 50 Shades of Grey and men can read Jack Vance, then we'd be in a pretty good place, or at least a much better place than women being forced to play crew-cut white male protagonists courting sexy women. But that necessitates getting women involved in positions of authority in the creation of games to begin with. The last few weeks haven't been good on that front.

My point being that it's easy to hold that up as an ideal but it's not the reality. So if games aren't really being made for women, then I think responsible feminist critique is necessary even for games created with men in mind so that the games that are being made are as palatable as possible for women until such a time as games start being made specifically for them.

Then there are the rare cases like BioWare games where the dev is devoted to making an experience for both.
 
I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to discredit what you're saying nor how you say it. I can see the disconnect, and I can understand how one might spur the other being farfetched. I'd agree the masses are probably band-wagoners for the wrong reasons (albeit plenty are bound to have good intentions).

There's a correlation I'd be happy to present (lengthy, mind you) and if you should be interested I'd gladly PM it to you when I can; but I don't think that serves anything for what's being discussed here. Originally, I was just wanting to help you disseminate your information in a way that didn't show bias; but you're aware of that so there's not really a need to discuss this much more :P.

Thanks for the reply and explanations, far from the usual retorts.

Yes, I would love to read it. As I said, I'm always open minded. I never assume that I'm 100% correct. If someone can convince me I'm wrong, I'll gladly re-adjust my view points. Because why I would I want to continue saying something that is wrong. And the key thing here is that, I AM actually willing to accept I could be wrong.
 
Yes, I would love to read it. As I said, I'm always open minded. I never assume that I'm 100% correct. If someone can convince me I'm wrong, I'll gladly re-adjust my view points. Because why I would I want to continue saying something that is wrong. And the key thing here is that, I AM actually willing to accept I could be wrong.
And what it would take to get you to believe you're wrong? How do you define being wrong?

I'm curious about how incontrovertible it would need to be, since I hear a lot of people say this and then describe a bar that no one could possibly reach in order to change the opinion.
 
I don't think that they mean to be secretive. I'd imagine that they just figured that an ethical question like "Is it right for a journalist to spend even a small amount of money backing a Kickstarter?" is too dry and minor for their readers to care about.

there have been other issues, but its sad if that's even a question, I don't see a conflict of interest, I see a journalist possibly ripping a game apart that he put money in for that did not pan out. but that's just me.
 
Why should publishers be the targets and not the culture-vulture sites who are perpetrating on gaming as we know it?

Both should be to blame: the publishers who incentivize good rating with bribes and the journalists / outlets who take those bribes. I hope we can be discerning enough to pick out the less corrupted outlets/individuals, including the likes of Rock, Paper, Shotgun; The Escapist; Rob Florence; Jason Schreier from Kotaku; etc.
 
If videogames could reach that sort of equilibrium where women can read 50 Shades of Grey and men can read Jack Vance, then we'd be in a pretty good place, or at least a much better place than women being forced to play crew-cut white male protagonists courting sexy women.

I'd be happy with that kind of balance too. I'm not sure why so many people seem to be threatened by the idea that not every game's going to be squarely directed at them. I mean, hell, that ALREADY happens. There are hundreds of professionally produced games released each year that we never touch because of a lack of time or interest.
 
That critique over Steven Seagal movies I found it quite funny, because one of my favorite movies from him is the one he fights against an oil company, protects an ethnic minority and ends with a speech in favour of alternative methods of energy. Totally 100% conservative.

*shrugs*
 
Yes in the Arts section along with book reviews, movie reviews and music reviews.
Yeah, it's great! But my point is that we (Kotaku) take ourselves seriously as journalists, despite the fact that we're covering entertainment. Sometimes our work can affect people's lives in real ways.
 
Crafting a character that the opposing sex doesn't like isn't sexist.

I don't like Edward from Twilight or the dudes in most romantic comedies. They have weak personalities and live only to serve the desires of the women.

It is a fantasy. No real man is being hurt or compromised to make this fantasy man. I am not forced to adhere to the standards set by these characters. I am not forced to consume media that contains these types of men.

That said, I am happy that women have escapist media where they are the center of the universe. I don't think it's a problem.

... Edward's biggest problem is still that he's got a few questionable abusive traits, which'd harm women more than men when presented as "a good thing".
 
One thing that #GG has prove is that "gamer" is definitely not dead. The concept may be object of discussion but gaming journalism screw it up with that poorly array of blog posts related to that.

I'd say, if anything, the socially-intolerant "leaders" of #gamergate are trying to define a "gamer" as someone who doesn't want feminist SJWs "shoving their agendas" down their throats.

They themselves are actually making the definition of the term almost exactly how Leigh Alexander defined it as in the article that started the hashtag revolt in the first place.

Crazy!
 
That critique over Steven Seagal movies I found it quite funny, because one of my favorite movies from him is the one he fights against an oil company, protects an ethnic minority and ends with a speech in favour of alternative methods of energy. Totally 100% conservative.

*shrugs*

And that's a perfectly legitimate response. The response to a criticism you don't agree with should be to explain why the criticism is wrong, not to try and prevent the criticism from happening.
 
And what it would take to get you to believe you're wrong? How do you define being wrong?

I'm curious about how incontrovertible it would need to be, since I hear a lot of people say this and then describe a bar that no one could possibly reach in order to change the opinion.

That's subjective isn't it? I dunno. But anyone that knows me on this forum, knows that I'm open to having my mind changed. It's happened before. So I will legitimately hear him out, try to have a discussion. If I think I'm wrong, then I'll re-consider my position. But you are right, believing you are wrong isn't like flipping a light switch. And it's not always quantifiable. But I do think it's important, to at least be open to being wrong. If that makes sense.

To be fair, I don't even think he disagrees with me wholly. He just disagrees with a certain aspect of how I viewed this controversy unfolding (ie. the origin of all this, and my view that it was misogynistic extremists that started it). I also should say, it's possible to still believe you are right after a debate, but move your position to a "maybe it's this way". Or "this is how I see it, but that's just my take on it". That's different then being like THIS IS 100% how it happened. So there is also different ways to adjust your position.
 
I agree that the element has always existed, and I don't think it can be changed or fixed. But I would say, the issue is that it's become more targeted. There is a specific group of people that don't want their hobby to be criticized, so they are using these tactics (that you state has been around a long time), to go after anyone that has an opinion criticism.

It was certainly made worse by the gaming media getting all preachy about it. Nobody likes being told they can't have something they enjoy. They especially don't like being told how awful they are for liking it. But there's a line between disagreeing with media / bloggers being preachy and obnoxious, and sending people bags of burning monkey dung in the post. In a way it was like some kind of absurd mass white knighting and self promotional posturing exercise, which I don't think Anita ever asked for.

I'm definitely in the 'there should also be content available with objectified men draped around the scenery like candy' camp which is more interested in everyone getting things they like, instead of taking away from people things you personally dislike.

As for the 'gamer' label itself. I was a gamer before most of these people fighting or preaching touched a joystick, those of us who have been around that long have seen 'gamer' attacked for various reasons over the years and we're still here. And long after these latest idiots drop from view we will still be here, until it's time to turn out the lights or until we've passed into the abyss. I feel a considerable level of detachment from the whole situation, it's like a passing storm.
 
Imru’ al-Qays;128623916 said:
Watching it now. Good arguments interspersed with obnoxious (and occasionally misogynistic) personal attacks on Sarkeesian and Quinn.
There's a video clip on YouTube where A.S. is saying that she doesn't' like /play video games. Don't know who to trust anymore tbh.
Am I allowed to post the link without getting banned?
 
1) It is difficult to find much real criticism in this hateful campaign.

Beyond your care bearing about it being hateful, where do you feel the industry needs to tighten up exactly?

2) Much of the criticism proposed by #GamerGate has been addressed in this piece, which you should read in its entirety: https://medium.com/@upstreamism/to-fair-minded-proponents-of-gamergate-7f3ce77301bb

See earlier rebuttal on said article.

3) Many journalists are constantly thinking and talking about these ethical issues, often behind the scenes. At Kotaku we talk about this sort of thing all the time. I always invite and encourage criticism, but to act like we don't take our jobs and our ethics seriously is rude and patronizing.

It's all very well to say you're professionals but when you've still got people working for you who've shown poor judgement on a number of occasions, it's hard to take the assertions of having integrity that seriously when all is said and done. You might as well be claiming there's WMDs in Iraq as far as public credibility goes.
 
There's a video clip on YouTube where A.S. is saying that she doesn't' like /play video games. Don't know who to trust anymore tbh.
Am I allowed to post the link without getting banned?

I think if he had left it there I wouldn't have been so annoyed. That's a perfectly valid point. It was more bringing Zoe Quinn into it and bemoaning the "stifling of criticism" without taking into account that they're actually facing legitimate death threats that annoyed me.

Is that relevant?

It's relevant insofar as it impacts the quality of her analysis. I don't think it's relevant in the abstract.
 
That's subjective isn't it? I dunno. But anyone that knows me on this forum, knows that I'm open to having my mind change. It's happened before.
Sure, but I wasn't necessarily asking for an objective response. Just a generic, "a few people whose opinions I respect" would be enough. I do think it's important to have at least a few things that delineate one's opinions though. It allows people to think through issues while making the threads of their ideas more solid in their minds, both for purposes of defining what they find objectionable and what they agree with. They themselves can then more easily define and specify the parts of an argument they're most interested in learning more about so as to be able to understand and clarify their arguments and the arguments of others.
 
No, but most news isn't about life or death events. The news is about reporting events that are relevant to the people who are interested in that news source. News is frequently the situation of the economy, the voting for the next president, the latest campaign contribution scandal, or a group of people banding together against the police for profiling minorities.

And hey, there's a lot of those politics inside the videogame industry too! We know that crunch in development is atrocious, that workers are frequently underpaid and overworked, that promises for certain functionality is frequently veiled in half-truths and sometimes open denial. Reporters in the videogame industry need to make these topics important to everyone, because they affect a lot of people in the videogame industry. These are people's lives we are talking about, and even though it's easy to abstract away from them because they aren't directly connected to you, I can guarantee you when 200 employees are let go from a company, that's really big news to the people who no longer have a job. Especially if the report is coming from a larger and even more faceless part of the company (at least, to the employees)!

These types of long form pieces are the ones I enjoy reading the most. But as far as I can tell these type of articles have been written long before the whole #GAMERGATE crap started.
 
Sure, but I wasn't necessarily asking for an objective response. Just a generic, "a few people whose opinions I respect" would be enough. I do think it's important to have at least a few things that delineate one's opinions though. It allows people to think through issues while making the threads of their ideas more solid in their minds, both for purposes of defining what they find objectionable and what they agree with. They themselves can then more easily define and specify the parts of an argument they're most interested in learning more about so as to be able to understand and clarify their arguments and the arguments of others.

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to act holier than though with my post. Simply, if the guy is going to take the effort to write me a lengthy response, I'm going to go in with an open mind to hear him out. I just wanted him to know that, so he didn't think he was wasting his time.

Anyways, I should probably take my leave from this thread. I've said all that I can say. My posts are there for people to read (to agree or disagree with). I do feel I did the best job I personally am capable of, with expressing my views. And that's all I can do. But at this point, it's just repeating the same thing. And sometimes I overstay my welcome. :P

EDIT: but I would respond if anyone ever did want to engage (not saying that I'm closing the door).
 
It would probably surprise you to know, then, that both these things do get critiqued, especially in academic circles but also in general pop culture. You could consider Star Wars the most populist of entertainment, but RedLetterMedia did a whole video series dissecting Episodes I-III to examine why those movies were such abject failures. Or to speak more directly to your point, this was on the very first page of the Google search results for "critical reading steven seagal":



I would look up academic critiques of porn for you but I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. Less academic critiques of porn include porn publishers and directors trying to push more diverse body styles, ethnicities and gender identities into porn.

There's this underlying assumption in a lot of the discussion about what is "fair" to criticize and what is not that says anything that isn't "high art" isn't worth of critique. Two things wrong with this statement, as I see it: one, video games as a whole have been considered, in different eras and even by people in this one (ex. the late Roger Ebert), to be "low art" or even not art at all. This is something lots of people who play games have fought against, and for good reason. You can't have it both ways--you can't agitate for video games to be considered an art, and then reject artistic, political and socioeconomic critiques that other artistic endeavors embrace as part of the tradition.

But even if you're the kind of person that rejects this wholeheartedly and says, no, I don't care if video games are art or not or what kind of art they are, it's still problematic to say some video games should be criticized and some shouldn't. You say that something that isn't "high art" shouldn't be criticized in the same way because it never had aspirations to be "good," for whatever value of "good" you're rejecting--i.e. this game never tried to have strong female characters so why should it be criticized on those grounds when clearly the developers never cared. But people don't make games in a vacuum and we don't critique games solely on whether the final product meets the standards of their creators. Anyone who makes a game and says "this isn't intended to be a political statement" is essentially making a political statement anyway. That's the definition of hegemony: a cultural or political norm that is seen as the status quo, or "the way things have always been." It's a political stance by default, essentially: by saying politics aren't involved, you're saying "I'm okay with whatever is going on now."

And that's fine! Games and their creators are totally allowed to do this. No Steven Seagal film is ever going to truly challenge the political status quo (although even On Deadly Ground tried to make a statement, so there!). But critique is still valuable in that it can tell us HOW a piece of art supports the status quo, and may even give us insight into countercultural readings of a work.

There's no such thing as a game that isn't worthy of a cultural critique. The worst game I played this year is worthy of a cultural critique. (It's Starlight Inception, by the way.) It doesn't matter what the intentions of the creator were, and it doesn't matter if the game is supposed to be trashy good fun or has higher pretentions.

I don't think it's a problem that people want to critique these things. I think its cool that such critiques exist for the people who are interested. I guess one problem is that most gamers don't care. The amount of messaging is disproportionate to the audience's interest. There is a growing resentment both ways because neither side is catering to the other.

I think the larger problem is that said games are treated as a problem that must be dealt with, that they have to change in order for women to enter the hobby. Gamers are shamed for enjoying these shallow games.

Gamers are at odds with people who think the following,
Media that perpetuates problematic stereotypes of minorities can absolutely be hurtful.

I don't think this is true. I do not buy into the idea that media causes bad behavior, and find it more likely to act as an outlet for bad behavior.
 
Fair enough. I wasn't trying to act holier than though with my post. Simply, if the guy is going to take the effort to write me a lengthy response, I'm going to go in with an open mind to hear him out. I just wanted him to know that, so he didn't think he was wasting his time.

Anyways, I should probably take my leave from this thread. I've said all that I can say. My posts are there for people to read (to agree or disagree with). I do feel I did the best job I personally am capable of, with expressing my views. And that's all I can do. But at this point, it's just repeating the same thing. And sometimes I overstay my welcome. :P

EDIT: but I would respond if anyone ever did want to engage (not saying that I'm closing the door).
Hey, that's cool. Was just trying to get some more insight into what you were thinking, so thanks for that!
These types of long form pieces are the ones I enjoy reading the most. But as far as I can tell these type of articles have been written long before the whole #GAMERGATE crap started.
Mm... ok. But I think that's actually a rather good argument for the whole GamerGate thing being largely quixotic in nature. It seems more like a smear campaign than a call to action.
 
These first two comments in an article related to this Gamergate thing made me super sad:

womengamersm4sfn.png
 
Not sure if it's been posted before, but a rather insightful video by a political activist and actor Nicholas Goroff talking about recent controversies and the inherent problems with the evangelizing of moral authority coming from certain quarters: -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_oIIeWoeTE

Be aware, it's about 25 minutes long, but is pretty articulate and considered and personally ties in nicely with my own thoughts about the way in which certain people are using censorship and 'no comments' as a means to shutter discussion.

Was an interesting video. Probably true when it comes to debate, period, on the internet since the rise of social media in general. It's being systemic of the internet, I think, and it's disappointing.
 
These first two comments in an article related to this Gamergate thing made me super sad:

womengamersm4sfn.png

It's not unique to women. I disabled comments on my blog and removed the contact form feature before making my first post. It's the wild west out there aside from moderated forums.
 
I don't think it's a problem that people want to critique these things. I think its cool that such critiques exist for the people who are interested. I guess one problem is that most gamers don't care. The amount of messaging is disproportionate to the audience's interest. There is a growing resentment both ways because neither side is catering to the other.
if there wasn't demand for cultural criticism of games i don't think it would be happening, conversely if there actually was such strong demand for "apolitical" reviews we'd see far more of them

this just sounds like "gamers" are annoyed and lashing out because nobody is catering exclusively to them anymore, which is exactly what the critics of gamergate are suggesting
 
It's not unique to women. I disabled comments on my blog and removed the contact form feature before making my first post. It's the wild west out there aside from moderated forums.

It's not unique to women but affects them disproportionately. Men do not receive gendered harassment in the way women do.
 
Not sure if it's been posted before, but a rather insightful video by a political activist and actor Nicholas Goroff talking about recent controversies and the inherent problems with the evangelizing of moral authority coming from certain quarters: -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_oIIeWoeTE

Be aware, it's about 25 minutes long, but is pretty articulate and considered and personally ties in nicely with my own thoughts about the way in which certain people are using censorship and 'no comments' as a means to shutter discussion.


This is brilliant. Thank you.
 
Well, even if it's a hobby I do think there should be standards. I mean, and I'm not saying this happens, but a reviewer should not be exchanging favors for press coverage/reviews.

That's certainly fair. Unfortunately, #gamergate has pretty much avoided even touching on this particular topic in any serious way, even though the largest game publishers spend extravagantly to encourage press members to cover their games positively.

Instead, its attentions have been focused almost entirely on the people with the least resources and least economic involvement with the larger industry -- freelance writers and small-scale indie devs. So far the list of people successfully targeted includes Mattie Brice and Jenn Frank -- two writers who have been quite upfront about bringing in poverty-level wages from videogame writing. It does not, however, include any people with power in organizations that have significant economic involvement in the industry -- say, executives at AAA publishers.

Mostly what this tells me is that while there is certainly a mass of well-intentioned people participating in #gamergate out of some legitimate desire for some kind of reform, there is nobody in a leadership role who is seriously attempting to engage with questions of journalistic ethics, since there are no efforts being made to actually challenge the places where significant conflicts of interest actually occur. The effort that is being directed is pointed squarely at inclusivity: either targeting people (especially women) who have spoken out in favor of gender inclusiveness in gaming, or identifying networking and funding mechanisms used by small players in the industry (again, especially women) and targeting those for destruction.

These first two comments in an article related to this Gamergate thing made me super sad:

For the last week a large part of my twitter timeline has been split between women saying that they're quitting because there's no earthly reason to put up with this kind of mistreatment and women saying that they're only not quitting to prove that they can be stubborn enough not to let misogynist assholes win. :/
 
From my perspective, this isn't an "argument" between two sides. It's one group of people asking to be heard, and another group staunchly and vehemently (and violently) refusing to listen. It's really gross. The idea that some people think there are "two sides" to this mess is incredibly disheartening. I mean, if there is a "middle ground" here, what is it between? How do you find common ground between inclusion and exclusion? Or between people who want to bring an issue into visibility and those who want to ignore/bury/silence it? I just don't see a middle ground here anywhere, nor do I see anything like the possibility for real "debate."
 
I don't think it's a problem that people want to critique these things. I think its cool that such critiques exist for the people who are interested. I guess one problem is that most gamers don't care. The amount of messaging is disproportionate to the audience's interest. There is a growing resentment both ways because neither side is catering to the other.

I think the larger problem is that said games are treated as a problem that must be dealt with, that they have to change in order for women to enter the hobby. Gamers are shamed for enjoying these shallow games.

Gamers are at odds with people who think the following,


I don't think this is true. I do not buy into the idea that media causes bad behavior, and find it more likely to act as an outlet for bad behavior.

The thing is that "gamer" is a big-tent term now that includes all types of people. It's not niche anymore. Everyone games. Sure, maybe large swaths of the "traditional" gaming audience doesn't care for social critiques, but that audience is becoming less important every day.

Also, the proper response to social criticism you disagree with isn't to say there should be less of it but to engage with it and provide rebuttal.
 
I think this is the stance I am taking. I don't like the term gamer and would never define myself as such, I play games, it's for entertainment. I also watch films and listen to and record music, but I do so for entertainment. I don't define myself by my recreational activities, but some people do and when you lump everyone into the same pot to make a point, the people who don't see themselves that way or don't want to associate with the trolls/shitflingers/idiots are going to speak out.

That said, for me, the whole debacle was never about Gamers vs Game Journalists, but about how the latter is constantly trying to make up imaginary battles between people who share the same hobby but share different opinions on the direction it should go. I don't think there's a conspiracy, outside of the publisher side of things, but I do think journalists, in general, not as individuals, over the past lot of years have shown a real disgust for their core userbase (maybe because they started calling them on their shit?) and tried to capture other demographics, whoever would have them.

I also like to play devil's advocate a lot.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I think that if the article had been better or if the author had taken the time to make some clarifications on twitter instead of making combative remarks, then this could have died down much faster. Instead it’s spawned a lot of hateful comments on both sides. Describe a gamer, gamergate, name calling, rape threats, death threats, and other stupid shit coming out of both camps have made it pretty sickening to watch. I've had to deal with discrimination all my life so it’s hard for me to avoid topics like this and not care. Sad that something as noble as equality among genders has been warped into a confusing fight with multiple different agendas and arguments. Discrimination is a problem with society as a whole, and stooping down to that level with people like that won’t make it go away any quicker.
 
From my perspective, this isn't an "argument" between two sides. It's one group of people asking to be heard, and another group staunchly and vehemently (and violently) refusing to listen. It's really gross. The idea that some people think there are "two sides" to this mess is incredibly disheartening. I mean, if there is a "middle ground" here, what is it between?

You really don't see why lumping one group of people under the same banner is an issue? This wasn't about sexism, this was about anyone who identified as a gamer being stereotyped as a sexist virgin because of other people who happen to identify with the same tag.

There is a middle ground:

Everyone needs to stop hating each other and everyone needs to stop trying to tell developers how to make their games.
 
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